E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 1 非基或反基未必是無神論者， 你這都不清楚？
說到頭腦不清楚， 您還真沒一點自覺。 |
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D*****r
发帖数: 6791 | 2 ...我真是不太愿意跟基督徒多说话，你指责我用自己的思想来套他的想法，紧接着就
用你的思想去套他，有这样的么？
萧伯纳遗嘱都写了：I desire that no public monument or work of art or
inscription or sermon or ritual service commemorating me shall suggest that
I accepted the tenets peculiar to any established church or denomination nor
take the form of a cross or any other instrument of torture or symbol of
blood sacrifice.
他讲反对基督教的原因用的是假设推理，你直接拿过来当做他的想法，比我暴力吧。 |
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E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 3 這版基督徒會反省一下自己指責別人的事情是不是自己也在幹的，
還沒看到過。
that
nor |
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s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 4 " 全然败坏（Total depravity）或完全无能力（Total inability），人类由于
亚当的
堕落而无法以自己的能力作任何灵性上的善事。
" 无条件的拣选（Unconditional election）上帝对于罪人拣选是无条件的，祂
的拣选
并非因为人在伦理道德上的优点，也非他预见了人将发生的信心。
" 有限的代赎（Limited atonement）基督釘十字架只是為那些預先蒙選之人，
不是為世
上所有的人。
" 不可抗拒的恩典（Irresistible grace）人類不可能拒絕上帝的救恩，上帝拯
救人的
恩典不可能因为人的原因而被阻挠，无法被人拒绝。
" 圣徒恆忍蒙保守（Perseverence of the saints）已經得到的救恩不會再次喪
失掉，
上帝必能保守其揀選的。 |
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s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 5 I don't know much about Mormons. I know myelsa very well. She is a Christi
an.
do you agree with Calvinist?
加尔文主义五要点
全然败坏（Total depravity）或完全无能力（Total inability），人类由于亚当的堕
落而无法以自己的能力作任何灵性上的善事。
无条件的拣选（Unconditional election）上帝对于罪人拣选是无条件的，祂的拣选并
非因为人在伦理道德上的优点，也非他预见了人将发生的信心。
有限的代赎（Limited atonement）基督釘十字架只是為那些預先蒙選之人，不是為世上
所有的人。
不可抗拒的恩典（Irresistible grace）人類不可能拒絕上帝的救恩，上帝拯救人的恩
典不可能因为人的原因而被阻挠，无法被人拒绝。
圣徒恆忍蒙保守（Perseverence of the saints）已經得到的救恩不會再次喪失掉，上
帝必能保守其揀選的。
这五点教义的英文首字字母恰Tulip，即“郁金香”之义。[3]
apply
... 阅读全帖 |
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s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWteNd_NxvQ
Calvinism is a false doctrine!? They teach limited atonement and believe tha
t only certain people go to heaven! Jesus Christ died for the WORLD'S sins!
Not just the elect! He died so that we have the opportunity to get into heav
en and be and the right hand of God!
PecanSandy309 |
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s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 7 John 3:16 For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so
that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal l
ife.
大家进这个版多少次，发帖多少次，就应该看到这句话多少次。神爱世人！信耶稣的人
得永生！两句让加尔文主义者胆战心惊的话。
我喜欢读福音书，因为里面记载着耶稣亲口说的话。加尔文们怎么来支持五点信条中的
“有限救赎”呢——“有限的代赎（Limited atonement）基督釘十字架只是為那些預先
蒙選之人，不是為世上所有的人。”
刚看了个clip，加尔文主义者用 John 6:37 Whatever the Father gives to me will
come to me; and I will not send away anyone who comes to me.
父赐给耶稣的人，必然到耶稣里来，耶稣不会放弃任何一个。
John 6:37 支持了“有限救赎”？加尔... 阅读全帖 |
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s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 10 这里首先是基督教个教派间相互不尊重，前斑竹永生列出一堆天主教异端条目，只要不
是加尔文主义的，都不许在这里谈，现在换了届，不敢再加尔文了，就转而攻击摩门教
会的myelsa，摩门我也不喜欢，但你把摩门赶走干什么，信耶稣的都不能待在trustinj
esus版，像话吗
有个biblestudy俱乐部，加尔文基们不进去好好交流，非要玩这个公共版，不就想影响
公众吗，而且有要清除“异端”，想让公众以为加尔文主义才是基督教正统，那非基也
要影响大众，我的职责是告诉大家
加尔文主义是邪教
加尔文主义五要点
" 全然败坏（Total depravity）或完全无能力（Total inability），人类由于
亚当的
堕落而无法以自己的能力作任何灵性上的善事。
" 无条件的拣选（Unconditional election）上帝对于罪人拣选是无条件的，祂
的拣选
并非因为人在伦理道德上的优点，也非他预见了人将发生的信心。
" 有限的代赎（Limited atonement）基督釘十字架只是為那些預先蒙選之人，
不是為世
上所有的人。
" 不可抗拒的恩... 阅读全帖 |
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G*M
发帖数: 6042 | 11 Bible Course - Christian Doctrine
Lesson 3
The Deliverance of Man
Lord's Day 5-7
The Deliverance of Man
Lord's Days 5 through 31 form the second part of the catechism. It consists
of questions 12 through 85, dealing with the deliverance from sin and misery
. From this aspect the first question is: Is there no way…?
Lord's Day 5
Q. 12. Since then, by the righteous judgment of God, we deserve temporal and
eternal punishment, is there no way by which we may escape that punishment,
and be again rece... 阅读全帖 |
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G*M
发帖数: 6042 | 12 Bible Course - Christian Doctrine
Lesson 5
God the Son
Lord's Day 11 - 13
In Lord's Day 8 we learned about a triune God - One God, consisting of three
distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Lord's Days 9
and 10 speak about God the Father. Lord's Days 11 - 19 teach us about the
Person and the work of God the Son.
Lord's Day 11
Q. 29. Why is the Son of God called Jesus, that is a Savior?
A. Because He saveth us, and delivereth us from our sins (a); and likewise,
because we ough... 阅读全帖 |
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s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 13 John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto m
e.
similar verse is
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw h
im: and I will raise him up at the last day. |
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s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 15 divorce her if she believe TULIP:
加尔文主义五要点
全然败坏（Total depravity）或完全无能力（Total inability），人类由于亚当的堕
落而无法以自己的能力作任何灵性上的善事。
无条件的拣选（Unconditional election）上帝对于罪人拣选是无条件的，祂的拣选并
非因为人在伦理道德上的优点，也非他预见了人将发生的信心。
有限的代赎（Limited atonement）基督釘十字架只是為那些預先蒙選之人，不是為世上
所有的人。
不可抗拒的恩典（Irresistible grace）人類不可能拒絕上帝的救恩，上帝拯救人的恩
典不可能因为人的原因而被阻挠，无法被人拒绝。
圣徒恆忍蒙保守（Perseverence of the saints）已經得到的救恩不會再次喪失掉，上
帝必能保守其揀選的。 |
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G*******s
发帖数: 4956 | 16 加尔文神学的几点省思——写在加尔文五百周年诞辰之际
作者：庄祖鲲
在华人教会圈子里，加尔文及其神学体系——即称之“加尔文神学”或“改革宗神学”
，可谓如雷贯耳。然而同时，加尔文神学最近也在国内造成极大的论争与裂痕。当我去
国内时，常有国内同工小心翼翼地私下问我：“你对改革宗神学有什么看法？”后来我
才知道，有些地区的教会分为“唐崇荣派”、“反唐崇荣派”，及“中间派”三大派，
几乎已到了互不交通、互不合作、互不往来的地步，可见其对立之严重。今年洽值加尔
文五百周年冥诞，也许是对其神学思想之争论，作一反思的时机。
首先，我们必须确认，加尔文可能是宗教改革五百年以来，基督教(更正宗)最重要、最
伟大的神学家，其地位可以与天主教所尊崇的阿奎那(Thomas Aquinas)相提并论。而加
尔文的巨著《基督教原理》(Institutes of the Christian Religion)，也足以与阿奎
那的《神学大全》(Summa Theologiae)相互辉映。因此，固然马丁•路德是登高
一呼，举起宗教改革大旗的先锋，但是要论对更正教神学思想的影响，无论深度与广度
，加尔文无疑是... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 17 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours
but also for the sins of the whole world.
note "the whole world"
calvinists, repent! |
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C****i
发帖数: 1776 | 18 发信人: Godwithus (神与我们同在), 信区: TrustInJesus
标 题: 加尔文五点TULIP的圣经根据 转载
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Sep 17 03:19:01 2011, 美东)
引言：
"TULIP" 的五个英文字母是代表加尔文主义 (Calvinism) 的五点基本救恩论立场。
T 代表人的全然败坏（Total depravity）；U代表神对人的无条件拣选（Unconditiona
l election）；L代表有限赎罪（Limited atonement）或特别救赎（Particular redem
ption）；I代表不可抗拒的恩典（Irresistible grace）；P代表信徒永远不会失落（P
erseverance of the saints）。
加尔文主义的五点救恩论教义，是回应亚米纽斯主义（Arminianism）所题出的五点
救恩论教义：1．神拣选或弃绝人是按着神预见人的信或不信；2．基督为所有人死，虽
然只有信徒得救；3．人的败坏唯有因着神的恩典，才能得着信心；4．神的恩典可以被
抗拒；5．信徒可能会失落。亚米纽斯... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 19 Calvinism consists of theological doctrines which use words found in the Bib
le. However, Calvinism consistently redefines those words, takes them out of
context, applies the doctrines inappropriately, exaggerates the meaning of
the words to the extreme, or in some other way distorts the Word of God to m
atch the theology written by John Calvin in his book, Institutes of the Chri
stian Religion. The following is a typical definition of Total Depravity, th
e First Point of Calvinism, written by o... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 20 来自主题: TrustInJesus版 - 圣灵感动？ why you copied some many verses to show me?
Does it talk about the fate of unbelievers? Why God created unbelievers?
God is not a selfish being. He want us to share his glory. The existence o
f unbelievers is a failure to God's plan. So the Calvinists invent the doc
trine of Total Depravity and Limited Atonement. Do these doctrines glorify
God? No way!
God has a better plan. I tell you the good news. In the millennial kingdom
reign of Jesus Christ, our savior will be real. Jesus will te... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 21 I think most ppl in today's world do have chance to hear the gospel, includi
ng our parents and grandparents. Will they go into eternal punishment if t
hey choose not to be a Christian? You think this is the justice of God for
sending our beloved relatives to hell? We know no one is perfect. Do they
really deserve this extreme punishment?
I think today's gospel does not accurately represent Jesus' teaching. Ppl w
on't be punished for rejecting a deteriorated gospel. (Think about the diff... 阅读全帖 |
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w**********1
发帖数: 2588 | 22 I still tend to agree with "eternal punishment", but relate to the
problem of people who do not have chance to become Christian, the
verses in Roman may apply:
【Rom2:12】 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the
law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
【Rom2:13】 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's
sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
【Rom2:14】 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, ... 阅读全帖 |
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m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 23 There is a doctrine underlying the subject of gospel judging. It was taught
when a lawyer asked the Savior, “Which is the great commandment in the law?
” (Matt. 22:36). Jesus answered:
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul
, and with all thy mind.
“This is the first and great commandment.
“And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” (Matt. 22:37
–40).
Later, in the su... 阅读全帖 |
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m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 24 thanks for sharing,appreciate your insight.
salvation is a choice, it is a gift, anyone can decide---if you wanted to
repent your sins, gladly accept Jesus's atonement, or, stand in from of God,
and take the sinful deeds you did upon yourself.
salvation is a merciful and loving arrangement for all people, anyone can
accept it, anyone can be converted.
there is great judgement day in the future---after millennium, according
everyone's works and deeds and their wills.meanwhile Jesus will start to
... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 25 ZT
The significance of our concern is given further weight by the fact that its
proponents even claim that "Calvinism is pure biblical Christianity in its
clearest and purest expression." D. James Kennedy has said, "I am a Presbyt
erian because I believe Presbyterianism is the purest form of Calvinism." Jo
hn Piper writes, "The doctrines of grace (Total depravity, Unconditional ele
ction, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the saints) ar
e the warp and woof of the biblical g... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 26 you cannot accept limited atonement
right?
I don't care about that person. I think this post of him is very good.
Paul cited David's poem to reason about the circumcision, nothing to do with
Total Depravity doctione. |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 27 Today there is growing division on this issue, most Calvinists insisting tha
t Christ died only for the elect. On the other hand, IFCA International, a g
roup of about 700 independent evangelical churches and 1,200 pastors (some o
f them Calvinists) declares in its doctrinal statement, "We believe that the
Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for all mankind ... to accomplish the r
edemption of all who trust in him . . . ." Spurgeon himself, so often quoted
by Calvinists to support their view, re... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 28 Under "The Question of Truth,"
We therefore call upon evangelicals to return to the once-held biblical view
. .. that to lay claim to a particular doctrine [Calvinism] as true is not s
piritual arrogance but a biblical duty.
Under ` A Vision for Reformation,"
We therefore call upon evangelicals to affirm a vision for reformation which
is in accordance with the witness of Scripture and in continuity with the h
istoric testimony of the [Calvinist] church. Such a vision is of a church wh
ich is bot... 阅读全帖 |
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G*******s
发帖数: 4956 | 29 英漢改革宗與神學名詞與觀念清單
SELECTED BASIC REFORMED/THEOLOGICAL
TERMS AND CONCEPTS, ENGLISH AND CHINESE
聖經 BIBLE
Bible, Scripture, the Scriptures 聖經
Biblical, Scriptural 合乎聖經的
Prophet 先知
Apostle 使徒
Consistent 一致，貫徹的
Inspiration （聖靈的）默示
Verbal inspiration 逐字默示
Plenary inspiration 整本《聖經》都是默示的
Infallibility 無謬
Inerr... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 30 By Dave Hunt
Making Certain Of Accuracy And Fairness
To make certain that no mistaken interpretations of the doctrines under cons
ideration survived in this book, a preliminary manuscript was submitted to a
number of Calvinist friends and acquaintances for their critique. Reading a
nd discussing with them their valuable comments, for which I am deeply grate
ful, has been an education in itself. In that process it became clearer than
ever that Calvinists don't agree even among themselves on every... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 31 what's local churches' view on limited atonement? |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 32 it is about the church, not individuals
Christians are covered by the blood of Jesus. If Christians can sin again a
nd again and again, the atonement of Jesus's blood fails. |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 33 Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the
shedding of his blood-- be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate hi
s righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed b
eforehand unpunished
a |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 34 so Jesus's atonement failed |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 35 Facing A Real Dilemma
The gospel Peter and Paul and the other apostles preached was for everyone i
n the audiences they faced, wherever they went: it was not a message which o
nly the elect could believe. Peter told Cornelius and his family and friends
, "And he [Christ] commanded us to preach unto the people [not to a select g
roup].... that ... whosoever [among the people to whom He preached] believet
h in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:42-43).
In contrast, Calvin's gospel says ... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 36 limited atonement
this doctrine is the biggest blasphemy (in terms of Jesus Christ) |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 37 How Much Calvin In Calvinism?
There is an attempt today to disassociate Calvin from Calvinism in view of i
ts earlier origins in Augustine and the Latin Vulgate Bible. Moreover, it wa
s not until the Great Synod of Dort (Dordrecht) more than fifty years after
Calvin's death that the five points of Calvinism were first set forth in ord
er.
Ironically, this declaration came about only as an expression of opposition
to the five points of Arminianism. Nevertheless, this system of thought cont
inues ... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 38 Jesus's atonement failed because Christians can sin even more than non-chris
tians.
all good works come from good faith
舍生取义 |
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w**********1
发帖数: 2588 | 39 “Jesus's atonement failed because Christians can sin even more than non-
christians.”
这个有什么经文支持？ |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 40 you agree with "Limited Atonement"
then you are 100% Calvinists
發現 |
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C****i
发帖数: 1776 | 41 BIBLE DICTIONARIES 聖經詞典
The one single volume which I think a Christian should purchase to
suppleme
nt his/her Bible is The New Bible Dictionary (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans; or
iginally published by Inter Varsity Press, 1962); Chinese translation: Sheng
Jing Xin Ci Dian 《聖經新辭典》(2 volumes; Hong Kong: 天道Tien Dao, 1993,
1997). The Chinese version, based on the 1982 2nd edition, is expensive (a
pprox. US $155 in North America for the two volumes), but well worth the inv
estment. You need... 阅读全帖 |
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C****i
发帖数: 1776 | 42 SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY: THEMES 系統神學﹕專題
Doctrine of the Knowledge of God / Doctrine of Revelation / Doctrine of Scri
pture
認識神﹐啟示論﹐聖經論
John Frame, The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God (Phillipsburg, NJ:
Presbyt
erian and Reformed, 1987). Translation into Chinese in progress, China Hori
zon
這是當代改革宗一本立場穩固﹐思路清晰﹐對福音派 (改革宗以外) 人士採溫和態
度的 "啟示論" 教科書。作者曾在耶魯大學攻讀邏輯﹐多年來在威敏斯特神學院 (費
城校本部﹐和加州校園) 任教﹐近年來在改革宗神學院任系統神學教授。
巴刻在<<基要主義與神的道>>裡為聖經的權威辯護﹐也處理了信心與理性的關
係。本書
的著作﹐是為了回應1950年代英國聖公會自由派的一位主教攻擊基要派。因此... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 43 Why do we need to pray if all things were predestined as Calvinists said? E
ven Jesus himself prayed. So we pray.
*Jesus Prays for His Disciples
John 17: 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those y
ou have given me, for they are yours.
*Jesus Prays for All Believers
John17:20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will b
elieve in me through their message,
We need to pay attention to what Jesus prayed. Calvinists may use John 17:9
to support the do... 阅读全帖 |
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C****i
发帖数: 1776 | 44 I have to agree with what you said.
However, a Christian might also commit the same sins.
Nonetheless, Jesus Christ has atoned all the sin one commited when he was
saved. |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 45 Total Depravity --Make mankind trash. Trash cannot glorify God.
Unconditional Election-Make God irrational
Limited Atonement -- the biggest blasphemy. Calvinists shall go to hell for
this.
Irresistible Grace-Calvinists are day dreaming.
Perseverance of the Saints - the only assurance is Calvinists will go to hel
l. So Mr. Huo can understand the Revelation of some people going to hell |
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G*******s
发帖数: 4956 | 46 改革宗与改革宗神学简介
－雷默－
新教传统的宗派有六大宗，分别是改革宗、路德宗、循道宗、浸礼宗、公理宗和圣公会
（安立甘宗）。中六大宗都在不同程度上受加尔文神学的影响。改革宗是完全的加尔文
神学；而在路德宗中《海德堡要理问答》就是加尔文神学与路德宗的结晶；循道宗中亦
有怀特菲尔德为首的加尔文主义者；在浸礼宗中则有采纳《威斯敏斯德信条》的加尔文
派浸信会，其中司布真就是浸礼宗中著名的加尔文主义者；公理宗的信仰是以加尔文神
学思想为基础，只是对信条的态度比较灵活；圣公会至今所遵行的《三十九条》更是直
接受加尔文神学的影响。[1]在世界各处基督教会中，持守加尔文主义神学立场的人也许
不占多数，但他们总是带领神学的方向。
所以，现代改革宗神学家华菲德声称：“加尔文主义就是基督教。加尔文主义所代表的
超自然主义就是基督教的生命；没有它基督教就不能存在。”[2]华菲德说，基督教的前
途与改革宗信仰有密不可分的关系[3]，“正如从前一样，基督教的将来与加尔文神学的
命运直接相连。”[4]
一． 宗教改革与宗教改革时期神学[5]
宗教改革始于十六世纪时的西欧。从根本上讲，乃是一种宗教的运动，核心是... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 47 Yes, God love every one of us!
Limited Atonement is Satan's teaching! |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 48 http://myblog.edzx.com/?18773/viewspace-7522
关於救恩之中「神的预定」与「人的接受」对最後得救的成就，各自所扮演的角色是什
麽？这是一个难解的问题。在小小羊的网站，我们来回讨论了一阵，其中有支持「限定
的赎罪(Limitted Atonement)」也有支持「无限的赎罪」的人。在此整理，留作记录。
阿斗：
我一直都受到归正神学的影响，相信加尔文的五点（TULIP)。但其中让我最过不去的，
还是有限的赎罪。理智上我可以理解谁得救，谁不得救完全是神的主权，早在创世之前
就被神预定了。但有一些明显的经文却也是不该忽视的。其中我觉得最难解的是：
「他为我们的罪作了挽回祭，不是单为我们的罪，也是为普天下人的罪。」（约翰一书
2：2）
「普天下的」希腊文（holos）确实是：所有的, 全部的, 完全的。
「他愿意万人得救，明白真道。因为只有一位神，在神和人中间，只有一位中保，乃是
降世为人的基督耶稣；他捨自己作万人的赎价，到了时候，这事必證明出来。」 （提摩
太前书2：4~6）
这里的「万人」希腊文（pas）确实是每一个人的意思。
把它们解成万族，是有一... 阅读全帖 |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 49 Jesus Christ Made Atonement for all the Sins. But a person need to accept
this gift. The lord's blood is sufficient for all sins but only effective
to the believers. |
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R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 50 By Dave Hunt
The Growing Controversy
The Counter-Remonstrance was in turn answered by The Opinion of the Remonstr
ants. This was a far more lengthy document which went into great detail to e
stablish what the Remonstrants "in conscience have thus far considered and s
till consider to be in harmony with the Word of God . . . ." It contained le
ngthy objections to Calvinism under four headings, the main points of which
are summarized in the following excerpts:
From Section I (10 paragraphs):
3. Go... 阅读全帖 |
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