w********m
发帖数: 1137 | 1 施一公有CS的master学位，他最大的创新是把工程学的概念引入生物研究，能保证在预
期的时间内发表高水平而且无法作假的文章。在施一公这样的老板手下做事成为炮灰的
几率比王晓东小的多。
比如，施的大弟子颜宁已经培养成学术超新星了。王晓东的大弟子杨杰回国几个月就因
为造假被从同济院长的位置拉下来。 |
b******k
发帖数: 2321 | 2 高级黑？
【在 w********m 的大作中提到】
: 施一公有CS的master学位，他最大的创新是把工程学的概念引入生物研究，能保证在预
: 期的时间内发表高水平而且无法作假的文章。在施一公这样的老板手下做事成为炮灰的
: 几率比王晓东小的多。
: 比如，施的大弟子颜宁已经培养成学术超新星了。王晓东的大弟子杨杰回国几个月就因
: 为造假被从同济院长的位置拉下来。
|
w***a
发帖数: 4361 | 3 领域不一样而已，搞结构的hardcore data没法造假。
signaling pathway的东西，胡编乱造些western blot完全没有难度。
【在 w********m 的大作中提到】
: 施一公有CS的master学位，他最大的创新是把工程学的概念引入生物研究，能保证在预
: 期的时间内发表高水平而且无法作假的文章。在施一公这样的老板手下做事成为炮灰的
: 几率比王晓东小的多。
: 比如，施的大弟子颜宁已经培养成学术超新星了。王晓东的大弟子杨杰回国几个月就因
: 为造假被从同济院长的位置拉下来。
|
b******k
发帖数: 2321 | 4 这么说 就跟王晓东造过假似的。。。
【在 w***a 的大作中提到】
: 领域不一样而已，搞结构的hardcore data没法造假。
: signaling pathway的东西，胡编乱造些western blot完全没有难度。
|
d********m
发帖数: 3662 | |
l**********1
发帖数: 5204 | 6 tongji 秘书躺-中枪啦
>
>>
【在 b******k 的大作中提到】
: 高级黑？
|
z********8
发帖数: 818 | 7
清华生科院副院长是谁？
【在 w********m 的大作中提到】
: 施一公有CS的master学位，他最大的创新是把工程学的概念引入生物研究，能保证在预
: 期的时间内发表高水平而且无法作假的文章。在施一公这样的老板手下做事成为炮灰的
: 几率比王晓东小的多。
: 比如，施的大弟子颜宁已经培养成学术超新星了。王晓东的大弟子杨杰回国几个月就因
: 为造假被从同济院长的位置拉下来。
|
w***a
发帖数: 4361 | 8 不是讨论具体的人，
而是比较蛋白结构和信号转导这两个field的data，哪个更容易造假。
就看看以前这个版上揪出来的造假，哪个不是western blot？
【在 b******k 的大作中提到】
: 这么说 就跟王晓东造过假似的。。。
|
b******k
发帖数: 2321 | 9 我知道 我是打酱油的。。
【在 w***a 的大作中提到】
: 不是讨论具体的人，
: 而是比较蛋白结构和信号转导这两个field的data，哪个更容易造假。
: 就看看以前这个版上揪出来的造假，哪个不是western blot？
|
d********m
发帖数: 3662 | 10 有，板上讨论过，印度人好像，被撤了一堆文章
【在 w***a 的大作中提到】
: 不是讨论具体的人，
: 而是比较蛋白结构和信号转导这两个field的data，哪个更容易造假。
: 就看看以前这个版上揪出来的造假，哪个不是western blot？
|
|
|
l**********1
发帖数: 5204 | 11 Duke?
【在 d********m 的大作中提到】
: 有，板上讨论过，印度人好像，被撤了一堆文章
|
A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 12 You still can get the phasing wrong and have to retract all the papers
published in CNS.
【在 w***a 的大作中提到】
: 领域不一样而已，搞结构的hardcore data没法造假。
: signaling pathway的东西，胡编乱造些western blot完全没有难度。
|
a****k
发帖数: 1130 | 13 我就奇怪了，版上这几天评论这个强，那个不强，比来比去的，有意思吗
【在 w********m 的大作中提到】
: 施一公有CS的master学位，他最大的创新是把工程学的概念引入生物研究，能保证在预
: 期的时间内发表高水平而且无法作假的文章。在施一公这样的老板手下做事成为炮灰的
: 几率比王晓东小的多。
: 比如，施的大弟子颜宁已经培养成学术超新星了。王晓东的大弟子杨杰回国几个月就因
: 为造假被从同济院长的位置拉下来。
|
b******k
发帖数: 2321 | 14 没意思。。这版上喜欢批评施一公和蒲木明的特别多 无非是显得自己做science比这两
位有品而已嘛
【在 a****k 的大作中提到】
: 我就奇怪了，版上这几天评论这个强，那个不强，比来比去的，有意思吗
|
a****k
发帖数: 1130 | 15 你道出了我的心声呀，好像自己science真做的怎么样了似的。。
【在 b******k 的大作中提到】
: 没意思。。这版上喜欢批评施一公和蒲木明的特别多 无非是显得自己做science比这两
: 位有品而已嘛
|
b******k
发帖数: 2321 | 16 而且搞笑的是一般也就只批评这两位 最近施一公同学更受欢迎一点 就跟批评家门只认
识这俩人似的。。
【在 a****k 的大作中提到】
: 你道出了我的心声呀，好像自己science真做的怎么样了似的。。
|
i****g
发帖数: 3896 | 17 人家爱批评就批评呗 只要说得有理 你有这么看不惯的么 难道要一窝蜂地崇拜11g说他
多牛你就高兴？
而且搞笑的是一般也就只批评这两位 最近施一公同学更受欢迎一点 就跟批评家门只认
识这俩人似的。。
【在 b******k 的大作中提到】
: 而且搞笑的是一般也就只批评这两位 最近施一公同学更受欢迎一点 就跟批评家门只认
: 识这俩人似的。。
|
m******n
发帖数: 453 | 18 你们不觉得这样点评风云人物
为他们出谋划策、为他们鸣不平，等等
跟那些键盘委员、地下室青年点评中南海政策一样的可笑么
跟广大还在博后艰苦生活、尚未脱身的自己，
他们谁更厉害谁当院士谁被黑了
跟自己真的有半毛钱关系？ |
g*****p
发帖数: 451 | 19 这没法比吧
差出来一代了
蒲跟施的博后老板比比差不多
蒲做第一任系主任上小课的时候
施刚刚是放下高中课本去清华生物系老馆顶楼进去答“到”的时间坎...
【在 b******k 的大作中提到】
: 没意思。。这版上喜欢批评施一公和蒲木明的特别多 无非是显得自己做science比这两
: 位有品而已嘛
|
g*******l
发帖数: 239 | 20 “把工程学的概念引入生物研究”是11g的原创？我笑了
【在 w********m 的大作中提到】
: 施一公有CS的master学位，他最大的创新是把工程学的概念引入生物研究，能保证在预
: 期的时间内发表高水平而且无法作假的文章。在施一公这样的老板手下做事成为炮灰的
: 几率比王晓东小的多。
: 比如，施的大弟子颜宁已经培养成学术超新星了。王晓东的大弟子杨杰回国几个月就因
: 为造假被从同济院长的位置拉下来。
|
|
|
P******t
发帖数: 1717 | 21 正确表达方式应该是
‘我笑尿了’。
【在 g*******l 的大作中提到】
: “把工程学的概念引入生物研究”是11g的原创？我笑了
|
g*****n
发帖数: 250 | 22 施何以跟王平起平坐。王的线粒体／细胞凋亡的工作是NB奖水平的。施就是出体力看看
蛋白的结构，没有什么理论突破。其实那些３D结构都可以从一级结构上猜个８９不离
十。再过几十年，施那些文章都将没有参考价值。结晶后的蛋白结构和在细胞里的结构
是天壤之别。 |
E**********1
发帖数: 19 | 23 其实那些３D结构都可以从一级结构上猜个８９不离
>> Do you know what you are talking about?? How do you do that?? Do you
have any evidence to back yourself up??? The problem is that some people
just conveniently generalize things using a couple cases...
再过几十年，施那些文章都将没有参考价值。结晶后的蛋白结构和在细胞里的结构
>> Again, there could be some differences between crystal structures and
solution structures and the structures in vivo. We all are aware of it, but
I
don't think it is 天壤之别. Every method or technique has advantages or
disadvantages, so does X-ray crystallography. Tell me a better way to get
structures,please?? Attacking other people is always easier than doing
something, and doing that does not make you look smart.
There are serious flaws in your arguments and if you are doing research, I
really worry about you... |
b******y
发帖数: 627 | 24 re.
but
【在 E**********1 的大作中提到】
: 其实那些３D结构都可以从一级结构上猜个８９不离
: >> Do you know what you are talking about?? How do you do that?? Do you
: have any evidence to back yourself up??? The problem is that some people
: just conveniently generalize things using a couple cases...
: 再过几十年，施那些文章都将没有参考价值。结晶后的蛋白结构和在细胞里的结构
: >> Again, there could be some differences between crystal structures and
: solution structures and the structures in vivo. We all are aware of it, but
: I
: don't think it is 天壤之别. Every method or technique has advantages or
: disadvantages, so does X-ray crystallography. Tell me a better way to get
|
w******y
发帖数: 2504 | |
g*****n
发帖数: 250 | 26 １。你到蛋白数据库里看看，个个都有＂猜＂的３D模型。重要位点的结构还真是８９
不离十。
２。蛋白在细胞里不是晶体。你的明白？ |
y***o
发帖数: 1853 | 27 agree
【在 w********m 的大作中提到】
: 施一公有CS的master学位，他最大的创新是把工程学的概念引入生物研究，能保证在预
: 期的时间内发表高水平而且无法作假的文章。在施一公这样的老板手下做事成为炮灰的
: 几率比王晓东小的多。
: 比如，施的大弟子颜宁已经培养成学术超新星了。王晓东的大弟子杨杰回国几个月就因
: 为造假被从同济院长的位置拉下来。
|
E**********1
发帖数: 19 | 28 1. okay, first of all, I really don't know PDB actually provides predicted
3D models for every single PDB entry--maybe I am outdated. But if you could
provide everybody here with an example or a link, that would be very
helpful. I
am not sure if you are talking about homolog structures or homology
modeling. Neither is accurate information. Homology modeling is very
challenging especially when sequence homology is low. Often you cannot find
solved homolog structures to do that, am I right? I don't think everyone
would settle with ８９不离十, like you. I hope that is not your motto,
otherwise it would be bad for your research.
CALM DOWN--if you have already got irritated. I just argue with facts. Let
's continue...
I can see your are learning. You put additional limitations to your
arguments to make them sound more correct, but unfortunately they are still
flawed. Structure prediction from primary amino acid sequence is still very
difficult. This is even more so for membrane proteins, which reside in '
special' lipid bilayer environment, compared to soluble proteins in aqueous
phase. I am aware of David Baker's work on protein prediction and I
personally was at his talks a couple times. My impression is that it is far
from perfect yet(I am not saying it is not achievable). Even it could do a
pretty good job one day, the debate about discrepancies between crystal
structures and in vivo structures is still there. In fact, isn't this true
for all the research in isolated systems? Because we cannot do experiments
in live human directly, we have to use isolated systems which always raises
a question: is it real? That is why all drugs we've discovered have to be
tested in clinical trials! My point is that you don't need to question the
shortcoming of a particular technique, which is also the problem of other
techniques.
2. It doesn't look like you have read my last reply carefully. Obviously, I
have
addressed your second point. 我很明白！ I once again acknowledge there is
disadvantage in X-ray crystallography--perhaps it is just a simplified
snapshot of an entire complex biological process, but nevertheless it is
still valuable to our understanding. Also, given the drawbacks of
crystallography, I have asked you to recommend a better way to obtain
structures. If you cannot, then we have to use what is available in our
tool box, what is wrong with that?
I need to thank you if you have successfully read till this point...
I have seen many comments arguing that 11g is over-credited. I just want to
say that research nowadays is very specialized. If one is trained as a
structural biologist, you cannot ask him or her to do too much cell biology
work. Just like you cannot ask a plumber to do an electrician's work.
Think from others shoes--if you were him, what would you do? I think he ,
as a structural biologist, has done a awfully good job!
【在 g*****n 的大作中提到】
: １。你到蛋白数据库里看看，个个都有＂猜＂的３D模型。重要位点的结构还真是８９
: 不离十。
: ２。蛋白在细胞里不是晶体。你的明白？
|
b******n
发帖数: 4225 | 29 这话不同意，做结构的也有造假
09年不是查出来UAB的三哥H.M. Krishna Murthy创造性“解出”12种蛋白质结构，
还发在了Nature,cell,PNAS等杂志上么？
【在 w***a 的大作中提到】
: 领域不一样而已，搞结构的hardcore data没法造假。
: signaling pathway的东西，胡编乱造些western blot完全没有难度。
|
g*****n
发帖数: 250 | 30 老兄果然是搞结构的。Truth sometimes hurts. 说到膜蛋白，把它从质脂双膜上拿下
来，再结晶。你说那结构不差到十万八千里去了。别争了。扔到废纸收购站的科学论文
多了去了。
could
find
【在 E**********1 的大作中提到】
: 1. okay, first of all, I really don't know PDB actually provides predicted
: 3D models for every single PDB entry--maybe I am outdated. But if you could
: provide everybody here with an example or a link, that would be very
: helpful. I
: am not sure if you are talking about homolog structures or homology
: modeling. Neither is accurate information. Homology modeling is very
: challenging especially when sequence homology is low. Often you cannot find
: solved homolog structures to do that, am I right? I don't think everyone
: would settle with ８９不离十, like you. I hope that is not your motto,
: otherwise it would be bad for your research.
|
|
|
E**********1
发帖数: 19 | 31 Okay, now I know you really did not read the post carefully...where did I
say the crystal structures of membrane proteins are the same as in vivo
structures? You are a loose cannon--fire before you aim at the target. In
fact, I have stated several times that there are drawbacks of X-ray
crystallography, but it still is the tool available, if not the best one, to
obtain the structural information...like results from other methods are to
be cross-examined by other techniques, such as mutational analysis and
functional studies, to minimize errors.
BTW, your statement 说到膜蛋白，把它从质脂双膜上拿下
Without actually seeing the real structure in vivo, how could you make such
groundless conclusion?? We cannot argue by imagination, please! Also, I
have said that we unfortunately have to study a target of interest in an
isolated system and if the result is a true reflection of real thing is an
open question. And, ONE MORE TIME, this is the case for other scientific
methods as well. I don't know why you want to single out X-ray
crystallography.
Again, if you have something to argue, please do it based on facts, not on
imagination. BTW, in my last posts, I have two requests for you: 1. give me
an example showing PDB does provide predicted 3D structures for every PDB
entry.
2. recommend a
better tool to get structures. You have not done ANY! So, you don't plan to
back up what you said, right? If so, let's stop here... |
A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 32 Wow...just wow! Some crystal structures do help the field. Using in silico
prediction is still horrible. I'm not a crystallograher but co-trained by
an HHMI crystallographer and a HHIM in-silico big bull. The problem with
the structural field is that it is too narrow. Once you are trained as a
hardcore crystallograher, that all you can do. I like to diversify. The
problem of my current filed of interst is that crystal structures really
didn't help, but it is not true in all cases.
【在 g*****n 的大作中提到】
: 老兄果然是搞结构的。Truth sometimes hurts. 说到膜蛋白，把它从质脂双膜上拿下
: 来，再结晶。你说那结构不差到十万八千里去了。别争了。扔到废纸收购站的科学论文
: 多了去了。
:
: could
: find
|
E**********1
发帖数: 19 | 33 I strongly agree with what you said. In fact people in any field should be
open-minded. Actually there are distinctive differences between X-ray
crystallographers and structural biologists. A true structural biologist
should take advantage of all tools available, including crystallography, NMR
, and other molecular, biochemical and biophysical means, to better answer
the scientific questions. Obviously, we are not Jack of All Trades. But we
can achieve this by extensive collaborations. This is because, as I said
earlier, every technique has advantage and disadvantage and we need to know
to use them in a complementary fashion, not in a mutually exclusive way. I
also agree that we should solve structures only if there is unmet scientific
need, rather than for publication only. Unfortunately, the current merit
system is somehow set up, to a large degree, on publications--which is a
different topic for future discussion...Thank you. |
k******0
发帖数: 1073 | 34 无知者无谓。
【在 g*****n 的大作中提到】
: 老兄果然是搞结构的。Truth sometimes hurts. 说到膜蛋白，把它从质脂双膜上拿下
: 来，再结晶。你说那结构不差到十万八千里去了。别争了。扔到废纸收购站的科学论文
: 多了去了。
:
: could
: find
|
z**********i
发帖数: 12276 | 35 haha.
【在 w********m 的大作中提到】
: 施一公有CS的master学位，他最大的创新是把工程学的概念引入生物研究，能保证在预
: 期的时间内发表高水平而且无法作假的文章。在施一公这样的老板手下做事成为炮灰的
: 几率比王晓东小的多。
: 比如，施的大弟子颜宁已经培养成学术超新星了。王晓东的大弟子杨杰回国几个月就因
: 为造假被从同济院长的位置拉下来。
|
