l****a
发帖数: 272 | 1 再请教个坐庄问题吧,
Q82
Q6
AQ7
QJ942
K7
A98432
986
A5
S W N E
1H pass 2C 2S
pass pass 3NT All pass
E首攻 SJ, 怎么计划? | j*******e
发帖数: 2168 | 2 既然百花齐放，我就先说个想法。
我希望S 6-2，RHO持HKxx: 忍一圈S，第二圈SK拿下，出Hx
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 再请教个坐庄问题吧,
: Q82
: Q6
: AQ7
: QJ942
: K7
: A98432
: 986
: A5
: S W N E
| j******w
发帖数: 4429 | 3 east 叫过S 持SA的可能性很大阿
【在 j*******e 的大作中提到】
: 既然百花齐放，我就先说个想法。
: 我希望S 6-2，RHO持HKxx: 忍一圈S，第二圈SK拿下，出Hx
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 4 You can play east to hold all the HCPs.
win SK, play CA, and low C to C9, if east holds CKx, he would be thrown in
immediately, then he has to return D to have a chance to beat it. Suppose he
returns Dx, you cover west's DT or J, cash clubs and pay attention to east
pitches to end play east again. If east returns DT or DJ or even DK, you can
allow him to win and win D later.
If east holds CKxx, he has to return C back and you still can pay attention
to his
discard. He may hold 6-2-2-3, in that case, under your two clubs, he has to
pitch
two spades, then you can play DA and Dx to endplay him again.
Another line is to play west to hold HJx or Tx, so you win SK, play H9 and
try to
finesse it if it's not covered.
The strongest defense for east is to play CK to drive your CA out if he has
CK. Then you can guess to finesse C and later try for end plays or D finesse
, depending on how you read the position.
I think the first line is probably more likely and more fun to try.
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 再请教个坐庄问题吧,
: Q82
: Q6
: AQ7
: QJ942
: K7
: A98432
: 986
: A5
: S W N E
| j*******e
发帖数: 2168 | 5 我是按LHO持SAJTxxx来打的，如果他第二圈拔SA续打S，那么手中赢后出HQ
【在 j******w 的大作中提到】
: east 叫过S 持SA的可能性很大阿
| j*******e
发帖数: 2168 | 6 这个叫牌序列下（局况尚不明），2S争叫的点力范围是怎样的？
he
east
can
attention
to
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: You can play east to hold all the HCPs.
: win SK, play CA, and low C to C9, if east holds CKx, he would be thrown in
: immediately, then he has to return D to have a chance to beat it. Suppose he
: returns Dx, you cover west's DT or J, cash clubs and pay attention to east
: pitches to end play east again. If east returns DT or DJ or even DK, you can
: allow him to win and win D later.
: If east holds CKxx, he has to return C back and you still can pay attention
: to his
: discard. He may hold 6-2-2-3, in that case, under your two clubs, he has to
: pitch
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 7 For experts, the overcall here is very rare, because opps have set up a
gameforcing sequence and have shown two suits. So it is usually based on
good shape and good suits. Also, it's very easy to get penalized, so one has
to be very cautious here.
【在 j*******e 的大作中提到】
: 这个叫牌序列下（局况尚不明），2S争叫的点力范围是怎样的？
:
: he
: east
: can
: attention
: to
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | 8 局况补充一下,是双无.
上述的几个打法, 都有一定得道理, 成功与否不重要, 重要的是思路.
防守方的牌如下,
West East
93 AJ10654
105 KJ7
K5432 J10
K1087 63
实际上的打法, 明手SK 吃住, H8 深飞到J.可惜的是,后劲儿不足,还是打下了. | b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 9 这种争叫主要是为了扰乱对方，以及寻求可能的牺牲。套的质量要好，全手点力不需要
很多，但是应该有效。尤其如果是有局争叫的话，我觉得东家有ＨＫ的可能性不大，他
的牌应该更加pure．
【在 j*******e 的大作中提到】
: 这个叫牌序列下（局况尚不明），2S争叫的点力范围是怎样的？
:
: he
: east
: can
: attention
: to
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 10 I don't think you can make it after a club switch by east when he wins HJ.
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 局况补充一下,是双无.
: 上述的几个打法, 都有一定得道理, 成功与否不重要, 重要的是思路.
: 防守方的牌如下,
: West East
: 93 AJ10654
: 105 KJ7
: K5432 J10
: K1087 63
: 实际上的打法, 明手SK 吃住, H8 深飞到J.可惜的是,后劲儿不足,还是打下了.
| | | j*******e
发帖数: 2168 | 11 而这个防守是显然的：庄家在弄H，桌上只有一个CA进手
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: I don't think you can make it after a club switch by east when he wins HJ.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 12 actually north's 3NT is rather a bad bid. North should bid 2NT here, then
south can bid 3H to show 6 hearts, but suitable for defense. Now north can
raise 3H to 4H.
【在 j*******e 的大作中提到】
: 而这个防守是显然的：庄家在弄H，桌上只有一个CA进手
| j*******e
发帖数: 2168 | 13 nod, one thing I don't understand is, why 3H here by Sounth would mean "
suitable for defense" besides showing 6 hearts?
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: actually north's 3NT is rather a bad bid. North should bid 2NT here, then
: south can bid 3H to show 6 hearts, but suitable for defense. Now north can
: raise 3H to 4H.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 14 ＨＪ之后回出梅花，好像没得做，红心是堵塞结构。。。
思路上面，我觉得josephine的不错，打西家持ＨＫ。当然西家ＨＫ赢得之后多半回方
块，所以还要猜一下低花Ｋ的位置，但至少有相当的机会。
北家持均型牌，而且点力适合防守，双无局况下还是以加倍２Ｓ为妥。
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 局况补充一下,是双无.
: 上述的几个打法, 都有一定得道理, 成功与否不重要, 重要的是思路.
: 防守方的牌如下,
: West East
: 93 AJ10654
: 105 KJ7
: K5432 J10
: K1087 63
: 实际上的打法, 明手SK 吃住, H8 深飞到J.可惜的是,后劲儿不足,还是打下了.
| j******w
发帖数: 4429 | 15 象北这种结构的牌不适合打nt，
哪怕JT９这样的连张多些都好的多
Q８间张结构不好 我要定的话４h把
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 再请教个坐庄问题吧,
: Q82
: Q6
: AQ7
: QJ942
: K7
: A98432
: 986
: A5
: S W N E
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 16 If it is offensive oriented, he can bid 3H right away over 2S. Pass shows a
hand that defends well over partner's penalty double.
【在 j*******e 的大作中提到】
: nod, one thing I don't understand is, why 3H here by Sounth would mean "
: suitable for defense" besides showing 6 hearts?
| j*******e
发帖数: 2168 | 17 ic, need to use negative inference:)
a
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: If it is offensive oriented, he can bid 3H right away over 2S. Pass shows a
: hand that defends well over partner's penalty double.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 18 Well, double should strictly show a hand with 4 spades, Qxx is way too weak
here. Partner would usually pass this double with any weak doubleton in S
and I don't even think you can always defeat 2S facing strong opps or even
if you can defeat it, it may not be profitable. It's actually not uncommon
for many to bid 2S with S AKJxxxx.
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: ＨＪ之后回出梅花，好像没得做，红心是堵塞结构。。。
: 思路上面，我觉得josephine的不错，打西家持ＨＫ。当然西家ＨＫ赢得之后多半回方
: 块，所以还要猜一下低花Ｋ的位置，但至少有相当的机会。
: 北家持均型牌，而且点力适合防守，双无局况下还是以加倍２Ｓ为妥。
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 19 南家如果是offensive-oriented hand，前面２Ｓ之后就直接叫牌了。前面的ＰＡＳＳ
已经显示一手不介意防守的牌。所以我建议北家加倍。IMP分制下也可以考虑２ＮＴ．
【在 j*******e 的大作中提到】
: nod, one thing I don't understand is, why 3H here by Sounth would mean "
: suitable for defense" besides showing 6 hearts?
| v**********e
发帖数: 1295 | 20 2/1所有权建立后，对敌方争叫的加倍是需要定义的，按照一般的约定，通常理解为惩
罚性，这好像是Lawrence的书上说的吧。不过这种处理的合理性有待商榷。另一种处理
是类似Forcing Pass的，当然也有正式和反式之分。
在这副牌上，正常的进程应该是不考虑惩罚敌方的，毕竟敌方有八张套打二阶，北在局
的选择上稍有点仓促，不过也并非没有道理。
打牌上CK不对位机会总归很渺茫.
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: 南家如果是offensive-oriented hand，前面２Ｓ之后就直接叫牌了。前面的ＰＡＳＳ
: 已经显示一手不介意防守的牌。所以我建议北家加倍。IMP分制下也可以考虑２ＮＴ．
| | | p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 21 This treatment is certainly very simple and practical. Reserve the double
for penalty is good in the sense that if you play penalty double, opps may
not overcall as much as before to disturb your 2/1.
The simplest treatment is still to play double as penalty and pass as hands
that is defensive oriented, but no trump stacks. Of course, the meaning of
2NT right away is open to discussion. IMO, it can be a transfer to C and all
bids by opener can be transfer oriented started from 2NT, which would
usually place the overcaller to lead.
Another treatment is to play double as a transfer to NT, so partner can pass
this double with suitable hands. Pass would shows interest for penalty.
This is probably a theoretically better treatment.
With all these possibilities, one really should think twice before
overcalling opp's 2/1.
【在 v**********e 的大作中提到】
: 2/1所有权建立后，对敌方争叫的加倍是需要定义的，按照一般的约定，通常理解为惩
: 罚性，这好像是Lawrence的书上说的吧。不过这种处理的合理性有待商榷。另一种处理
: 是类似Forcing Pass的，当然也有正式和反式之分。
: 在这副牌上，正常的进程应该是不考虑惩罚敌方的，毕竟敌方有八张套打二阶，北在局
: 的选择上稍有点仓促，不过也并非没有道理。
: 打牌上CK不对位机会总归很渺茫.
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | 22 其实, 很多的坐庄问题, 特别是很困难的问题, 归根结底, 都是叫牌问题, 往往是冒叫
了. (看蓝队的坐庄时, 这种感觉特别强烈). 在娱乐级别的桥牌里面, 这种情况太多了
.
如果说我们想提高叫牌的成功率的话, 那么, 上面大家提到的那些 X, 2nt, 等等的含
义, 就需要两个人之间严格地去定义是什么含义, 否定什么含义. 正是这些细微的共识
和默契, 才可以让pd大大提高判断的准确性.
昨天的一个帖子里, 似乎提到了judgement 和 体系的问题, 我觉得这两个并不是完全
对立的. | b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 23 我觉得在直接位置上（南家）加倍，应该是惩罚性的。在平衡位置上则更多合作性的成
分。北家可能持一手没有什么特征的均型牌，黑桃甚至可能更差，比方ｘｘｘ／Ｋｘ／
ＡＫｘ／ＫＴｘｘｘ，叫什么都不合适，又不能ＰＡＳＳ，加倍是一个好的描述。坐在
争叫方上家，光凭将牌加倍的情况本来就不是很多，所以加倍作为合作性应该更有用。
北加倍之后，南家的牌有些痛苦。ＳＫ建议防守，但第六张红心建议叫牌。我觉得ＰＡ
ＳＳ或３Ｈ都可以接受。 | p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 24 This treatment is rather bad. So with a true penalty double hand, responder
would double and opener may pull with doubletons. That would allow your opp
to escape from many huge penalties.
As I said, the best treatment here is to play double as a transfer to NT,
which can be passed by 4 spades. Pass to show a penalty double hand.
Also, your worry is not necessary. If you play direct double as a penalty,
responder can bid 2NT with many balanced hands without a stopper after
opener passes, since 2NT is forcing. Later, you still have room to to
explore whether you can play 3NT or not.
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得在直接位置上（南家）加倍，应该是惩罚性的。在平衡位置上则更多合作性的成
: 分。北家可能持一手没有什么特征的均型牌，黑桃甚至可能更差，比方ｘｘｘ／Ｋｘ／
: ＡＫｘ／ＫＴｘｘｘ，叫什么都不合适，又不能ＰＡＳＳ，加倍是一个好的描述。坐在
: 争叫方上家，光凭将牌加倍的情况本来就不是很多，所以加倍作为合作性应该更有用。
: 北加倍之后，南家的牌有些痛苦。ＳＫ建议防守，但第六张红心建议叫牌。我觉得ＰＡ
: ＳＳ或３Ｈ都可以接受。
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 25 LOL, most of declaring problem posted by you are rather difficult. Yes, I
think your partner and you frequently overbid.
Of course, in most serious partnerships of experts, these kind of sequences
are frequently discussed. That's why I said intermediate and advanced
players just don't have a chance to beat experts in long matches if they don
't work hard. All these are clear system issues. Of course, no matter how
complete your system is, you may still have some undiscussed or unfamiliar
areas, that's where the judgment calls come from. That means the more
complete your system is, the less judgment calls you have to make.
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 其实, 很多的坐庄问题, 特别是很困难的问题, 归根结底, 都是叫牌问题, 往往是冒叫
: 了. (看蓝队的坐庄时, 这种感觉特别强烈). 在娱乐级别的桥牌里面, 这种情况太多了
: .
: 如果说我们想提高叫牌的成功率的话, 那么, 上面大家提到的那些 X, 2nt, 等等的含
: 义, 就需要两个人之间严格地去定义是什么含义, 否定什么含义. 正是这些细微的共识
: 和默契, 才可以让pd大大提高判断的准确性.
: 昨天的一个帖子里, 似乎提到了judgement 和 体系的问题, 我觉得这两个并不是完全
: 对立的.
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | 26
只要约好了, 不误会, 没有什么 bad 不 bad 吧?
这本来也不是一个简单的大家观点都一致的问题.
best 也是, 没有最好, 只有更好.
不是针对你个人, 只是针对这两句话.
对你上面的两条坐庄路线, 都是很佩服的.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: This treatment is rather bad. So with a true penalty double hand, responder
: would double and opener may pull with doubletons. That would allow your opp
: to escape from many huge penalties.
: As I said, the best treatment here is to play double as a transfer to NT,
: which can be passed by 4 spades. Pass to show a penalty double hand.
: Also, your worry is not necessary. If you play direct double as a penalty,
: responder can bid 2NT with many balanced hands without a stopper after
: opener passes, since 2NT is forcing. Later, you still have room to to
: explore whether you can play 3NT or not.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 27 There are certainly bad treatments and good treatments. Bad treatments would
eventually disappear like RKC replacing Blackwood.
Of course, there could be better treatments, what I meant best is just
within the context of the discussed methods.
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
:
: 只要约好了, 不误会, 没有什么 bad 不 bad 吧?
: 这本来也不是一个简单的大家观点都一致的问题.
: best 也是, 没有最好, 只有更好.
: 不是针对你个人, 只是针对这两句话.
: 对你上面的两条坐庄路线, 都是很佩服的.
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | 28
我很难坐下来打牌, 经常是只能看朋友打牌, 还真不是我打的.
别人打牌, 我也就是闻闻味儿.
我倒是常冒叫或者叫错, 叫不准, 所以来这里听听专家意见, 借以来提高自己.
别人肯定会说到自己想不到的, 这个是讨论的目的.
差距之一就是这个 "the more complete ...",
有能力的原因, 也有精力的原因, 打初级水平竞技桥牌的, 很多人都卡在这儿了.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: LOL, most of declaring problem posted by you are rather difficult. Yes, I
: think your partner and you frequently overbid.
: Of course, in most serious partnerships of experts, these kind of sequences
: are frequently discussed. That's why I said intermediate and advanced
: players just don't have a chance to beat experts in long matches if they don
: 't work hard. All these are clear system issues. Of course, no matter how
: complete your system is, you may still have some undiscussed or unfamiliar
: areas, that's where the judgment calls come from. That means the more
: complete your system is, the less judgment calls you have to make.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 29 That's ok, if opponents catch the "right" timing to make bad overcalls (
North has trump stack and South has singleton or void so has to pull partner
's double), let them escape the penalty. But we still get them when South
has trump stack (this is the time penalty is most juicy, since South sits
BEHIND East), or trump breaks 3-3 and N-S has nothing to make. The bidding
structure should NOT gear toward getting the opponents EVERY TIME, rather it
should take care of our normal bidding, then the option to penalize is just
an added bonus.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: This treatment is rather bad. So with a true penalty double hand, responder
: would double and opener may pull with doubletons. That would allow your opp
: to escape from many huge penalties.
: As I said, the best treatment here is to play double as a transfer to NT,
: which can be passed by 4 spades. Pass to show a penalty double hand.
: Also, your worry is not necessary. If you play direct double as a penalty,
: responder can bid 2NT with many balanced hands without a stopper after
: opener passes, since 2NT is forcing. Later, you still have room to to
: explore whether you can play 3NT or not.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 30 Actually trying to penalize opp at two level with 3-3 split can sometimes
lead to huge disasters. 3-3 is good for defense when opp is quite (semi)
balanced and you may have crossruff potentials. In this situation, 2S is
usually bid by long and good spades with shortness somewhere. So most of
their assets are in trumps, but not side suit honors. They are most likely
to take 4-5 tricks in trumps and a few side tricks. So it is quite rare that
your 3-3 trump would ruff out their side suit honors to score extra
defensive tricks. In that sense, 3-3 can rarely make your rich. And usually
you should have some plays in 3NT if you have one or two stoppers,
especially after the overcall that often offers you more hints on
distributions. Of course, sometimes, you may want to double them when you
have a singleton or void in partner's main suit and 3 trumps, like AKx x
xxxx AKxxx after 1H p 2C 2S p p , that's a rare event though and most would
try to double them anyway.
partner
it
just
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: That's ok, if opponents catch the "right" timing to make bad overcalls (
: North has trump stack and South has singleton or void so has to pull partner
: 's double), let them escape the penalty. But we still get them when South
: has trump stack (this is the time penalty is most juicy, since South sits
: BEHIND East), or trump breaks 3-3 and N-S has nothing to make. The bidding
: structure should NOT gear toward getting the opponents EVERY TIME, rather it
: should take care of our normal bidding, then the option to penalize is just
: an added bonus.
| | | p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 31 In my observation, most bridge players spend hours and hours playing bridge
and minutes or seconds discussing their system and partnership
understandings. Of course, such kind of discussions can be boring.
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
:
: 我很难坐下来打牌, 经常是只能看朋友打牌, 还真不是我打的.
: 别人打牌, 我也就是闻闻味儿.
: 我倒是常冒叫或者叫错, 叫不准, 所以来这里听听专家意见, 借以来提高自己.
: 别人肯定会说到自己想不到的, 这个是讨论的目的.
: 差距之一就是这个 "the more complete ...",
: 有能力的原因, 也有精力的原因, 打初级水平竞技桥牌的, 很多人都卡在这儿了.
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | 32 很多人的兴趣就是在打, 还特别是坐庄, 这是个事实.
每个人初学的时候, 虽然打的不好, 但是乐趣一点都不少.
然后, 有的天分好的, 肯钻研的, 水平上升了.
但是, 仰头一望, 一座高山在眼前. 这时候, 乐趣也许反而小了.
各取所需, 那些停留在入门阶段的, 也不能不准他们打牌吧?
再说了, 没有成千上万的石头当金字塔的基石, 哪来的塔尖? | b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 33 Well, opener's X shows a hand with at least 3 spades (but they don't have to
be good). Responder doesn't have to pass the double with 3 small trumps. It
is just an option (you can call it "judgment", I know you hate this word...)
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: Actually trying to penalize opp at two level with 3-3 split can sometimes
: lead to huge disasters. 3-3 is good for defense when opp is quite (semi)
: balanced and you may have crossruff potentials. In this situation, 2S is
: usually bid by long and good spades with shortness somewhere. So most of
: their assets are in trumps, but not side suit honors. They are most likely
: to take 4-5 tricks in trumps and a few side tricks. So it is quite rare that
: your 3-3 trump would ruff out their side suit honors to score extra
: defensive tricks. In that sense, 3-3 can rarely make your rich. And usually
: you should have some plays in 3NT if you have one or two stoppers,
: especially after the overcall that often offers you more hints on
| v**********e
发帖数: 1295 | 34 对于2/1这种建立严肃所有权的进程，敌方的争叫通常是基于好套和较高的攻防比，惩
罚一般在己方点力较软，将牌偏分的情况下比较有利。我以前用的约定是，直接位置
PASS表示有四张将惩罚，X表示两到三张将的可防守牌，敌套单张或有额外的攻击实力
直接拉出来；之后如何处理同伴看着办。
hands
all
pass
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: This treatment is rather bad. So with a true penalty double hand, responder
: would double and opener may pull with doubletons. That would allow your opp
: to escape from many huge penalties.
: As I said, the best treatment here is to play double as a transfer to NT,
: which can be passed by 4 spades. Pass to show a penalty double hand.
: Also, your worry is not necessary. If you play direct double as a penalty,
: responder can bid 2NT with many balanced hands without a stopper after
: opener passes, since 2NT is forcing. Later, you still have room to to
: explore whether you can play 3NT or not.
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