a****s
发帖数: 524 | 1 IMP, 你方有局
--------- S K97
--------- H 8732
--------- D AKJ6
--------- C T3
S AQT2
H Q
D Q9874
C Q76
3H (P) P (4C)
P (4D) P (4S)
P (5C) DBL ------
同伴首攻红心A和K，怎样防守？
另外，同意加倍5C么？ | p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 2 Suppose declarer holds 4S + 6C or 7C, you always take at least two spades no
matter what. If declarer holds only 6 C, you may have some chance to take 3
spades if partner holds SJ. Otherwise, declarer usually goes down 1 if he
reads the spades position well.
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: IMP, 你方有局
: --------- S K97
: --------- H 8732
: --------- D AKJ6
: --------- C T3
: S AQT2
: H Q
: D Q9874
: C Q76
: 3H (P) P (4C)
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 3 So which card you play on the 2nd trick?
no
3
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: Suppose declarer holds 4S + 6C or 7C, you always take at least two spades no
: matter what. If declarer holds only 6 C, you may have some chance to take 3
: spades if partner holds SJ. Otherwise, declarer usually goes down 1 if he
: reads the spades position well.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 4 pitch a low D then.
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: So which card you play on the 2nd trick?
:
: no
: 3
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 5 Discourage in diamond. It only makes difference if second H cashes (partner
may only have 6 hearts). Then I would like partner to switch to spade.
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: So which card you play on the 2nd trick?
:
: no
: 3
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 6 which card you play?
partner
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: Discourage in diamond. It only makes difference if second H cashes (partner
: may only have 6 hearts). Then I would like partner to switch to spade.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 7 Depending on your agreement. If low diamond discourages, play a low diamond.
If high discourages, play D9. If you happen to play the horrible convention
of o/e, play D8.
This should be obvious. What happened? Your partner threw away DQ??
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: which card you play?
:
: partner
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 8
diamond.
convention
I was kibitzing this hand, it stuck me DQ could have been a brilliant play,
declarer actually has 4=2=0=7 shape, the 2nd heart stands and a spade shift
would have seen him went 4 down.
Perhaps I was biased by the benefit of seeing 4 hands, But one could see
pitch DQ would only cost (and looks silly, of course) if declarer has 3=1=1=
8 shape, which can be safely excluded from the bidding.
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: Depending on your agreement. If low diamond discourages, play a low diamond.
: If high discourages, play D9. If you happen to play the horrible convention
: of o/e, play D8.
: This should be obvious. What happened? Your partner threw away DQ??
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 9 DQ costs when declarer has 4117 shape. The point is that there is no need
for this "brilliant"play, a discouraging diamond should get partner to shift
to a spade. | p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 10 Not really, 4-1-2-6.
Ruff, D to DK, C finesse. cash all clubs. In the final 5 card end game, keep
SKx and D AJx at dummy, cash D and play the last D to throw you in, only
down 1.
If you pitch low D, it is a down 2 game.
,
shift
1=
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
:
: diamond.
: convention
: I was kibitzing this hand, it stuck me DQ could have been a brilliant play,
: declarer actually has 4=2=0=7 shape, the 2nd heart stands and a spade shift
: would have seen him went 4 down.
: Perhaps I was biased by the benefit of seeing 4 hands, But one could see
: pitch DQ would only cost (and looks silly, of course) if declarer has 3=1=1=
: 8 shape, which can be safely excluded from the bidding.
| | | p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 11 Not really, partner may not switch S if you discourage in D. Actually
playing o/e shows a huge advantage here.
shift
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: DQ costs when declarer has 4117 shape. The point is that there is no need
: for this "brilliant"play, a discouraging diamond should get partner to shift
: to a spade.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 12 Why is that? I can show encourage/discourage/neutral in diamonds. o/e has to
show either encourage or discourage, it cannot show neutral. For a hand
that you definitely want to encourage/discourage, it has advantage, but in
so many other cases it sucks.
Discouraging in D should be same as asking for spade switch. If I want H
continuation, I can either encourage diamonds or play a middle card.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: Not really, partner may not switch S if you discourage in D. Actually
: playing o/e shows a huge advantage here.
:
: shift
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 13 can't you still at least got your 2 spade tricks in this case?
shift
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: DQ costs when declarer has 4117 shape. The point is that there is no need
: for this "brilliant"play, a discouraging diamond should get partner to shift
: to a spade.
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 14 If H K couldn't stand, and declarer took club finesse,
the only trick left for you is S AQ, always down 1, no matter what you play.
keep
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: Not really, partner may not switch S if you discourage in D. Actually
: playing o/e shows a huge advantage here.
:
: shift
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 15 Yes, but if you didn't pitch DQ, you may get 3 spade tricks. Pitching DQ is
like what they call "practice finesse": you don't gain anything when you are
right, but you may lose when you are wrong.
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: can't you still at least got your 2 spade tricks in this case?
:
: shift
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 16 If HK doesn't stand, playing DQ almost surely cost a trick, since you are
also holding that precious S10.
play.
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: If H K couldn't stand, and declarer took club finesse,
: the only trick left for you is S AQ, always down 1, no matter what you play.
:
: keep
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 17 This doesn't make much sense. A discourage in D simply means a discourage in
D. It says nothing about spades. Suppose your partner holds SJx, it can be
very dangerous for him to make a spade switch (which may cost you a trick in
S). Also, there is no such thing that you can show "neutral" attitude in D
right away. You need three rounds of discards to show a neutral attitude in
D, "middle", "up" and "down".
An attitude defensive signal should always show a clear attitude in a
certain suit if possible.
Of course, I am sure you don't agree with this at all. That's actually where
the money comes from at the table.
to
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: Why is that? I can show encourage/discourage/neutral in diamonds. o/e has to
: show either encourage or discourage, it cannot show neutral. For a hand
: that you definitely want to encourage/discourage, it has advantage, but in
: so many other cases it sucks.
: Discouraging in D should be same as asking for spade switch. If I want H
: continuation, I can either encourage diamonds or play a middle card.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 18 No, your partner may hold SJ.
play.
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: If H K couldn't stand, and declarer took club finesse,
: the only trick left for you is S AQ, always down 1, no matter what you play.
:
: keep
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 19 practice makes perfect!
is
are
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: Yes, but if you didn't pitch DQ, you may get 3 spade tricks. Pitching DQ is
: like what they call "practice finesse": you don't gain anything when you are
: right, but you may lose when you are wrong.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 20 I am sure you know the idea of "obvious shift", in this case if I cannot
stand spade switch, I should encourage in diamonds. Partner can see dummy,
and can figure out that I would not really want him to shift to a diamond.
The diamond encouragement basically means: don't shift to spades.
When I discourage in D, from partner's perspective, declarer can hold DQx,
diamonds will be running to provide some discards in spades. So shifting to
spade will be mandatory. That is exactly what I want him to do.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: This doesn't make much sense. A discourage in D simply means a discourage in
: D. It says nothing about spades. Suppose your partner holds SJx, it can be
: very dangerous for him to make a spade switch (which may cost you a trick in
: S). Also, there is no such thing that you can show "neutral" attitude in D
: right away. You need three rounds of discards to show a neutral attitude in
: D, "middle", "up" and "down".
: An attitude defensive signal should always show a clear attitude in a
: certain suit if possible.
: Of course, I am sure you don't agree with this at all. That's actually where
: the money comes from at the table.
| | | a****s
发帖数: 524 | 21 OK, let say you partner pitch a diamond spot to show discourage diamond or
encourage spade, whatever your method is.
holding
S xx
H AKJTxx
D Txxx
C x
--------- Dummy
--------- S K97
--------- H 8732
--------- D AKJ6
--------- C T3
Are you sure you are going to shift a spade after K of hearts holding the
trick? Remember declarer had bid 4 Spades, How could spade shift make any
sense, unless you knew partner had Ace AND Queen?
is
are
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: Yes, but if you didn't pitch DQ, you may get 3 spade tricks. Pitching DQ is
: like what they call "practice finesse": you don't gain anything when you are
: right, but you may lose when you are wrong.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 22 This is pretty basic. If partner doesn't have DQ, declarer can pitch at
least 2 spades on diamond, so spade shift wouldn't lose anything, and it
gains when partner has SAQ.
The main thing is that partner should know you only have 2 spades, he wouldn
't discourage diamonds unless he holds SAQ, or some holding that wouldn't
cost if you play a spade.
Simply put, if partner has some other holding, such as Axxx in spades, he
should encourage in diamonds. AJxx is not so clear, but percentage-wise
partner should encourage diamonds also, since it is only wrong when you hold
Qx.
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: OK, let say you partner pitch a diamond spot to show discourage diamond or
: encourage spade, whatever your method is.
: holding
: S xx
: H AKJTxx
: D Txxx
: C x
: --------- Dummy
: --------- S K97
: --------- H 8732
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 23 I see.
But it was too hard for a player in Polish national team trial. and most
commentators have more sympathy with not shifting to spades.
wouldn
hold
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: This is pretty basic. If partner doesn't have DQ, declarer can pitch at
: least 2 spades on diamond, so spade shift wouldn't lose anything, and it
: gains when partner has SAQ.
: The main thing is that partner should know you only have 2 spades, he wouldn
: 't discourage diamonds unless he holds SAQ, or some holding that wouldn't
: cost if you play a spade.
: Simply put, if partner has some other holding, such as Axxx in spades, he
: should encourage in diamonds. AJxx is not so clear, but percentage-wise
: partner should encourage diamonds also, since it is only wrong when you hold
: Qx.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 24 Here comes the logical flaw. If you encourage D, it means you can't stand a
spade switch. However, if you discourage D, it doesn't mean you like S. It
only means you are either neutral or positive in S. This makes a suit
preference in S very attractive.
If the second H holds, declarer is marked with 4-2-1-6 shape, DQx is simply
impossible.
Also, for holdings like AQxx, you should encourage S. For holdings like AJxx
, you should be neutral. To distinguish them, a suit preference should work
better here obviously. (you suggest S with the first holding, suggest C with
the second holding and suggest D with weaker S holdings like ATxx.) This
just shows how good o/e or lav discard is.
to
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: I am sure you know the idea of "obvious shift", in this case if I cannot
: stand spade switch, I should encourage in diamonds. Partner can see dummy,
: and can figure out that I would not really want him to shift to a diamond.
: The diamond encouragement basically means: don't shift to spades.
: When I discourage in D, from partner's perspective, declarer can hold DQx,
: diamonds will be running to provide some discards in spades. So shifting to
: spade will be mandatory. That is exactly what I want him to do.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 25 Well, as you said before, it is easier to 纸上谈兵.
This is not a difficult hand, but it is very easy to slip in defense.
Continuing with 3rd heart seems innocent, most people will do it without
much thinking. Even experts, when tired, may just do the "automatic" heart
continuation.
Another point in defense: suppose partner did continue heart at trick 3 (a
mistake), now when declarer ruffs and draws trump, you should throw CQ under
CK, refuse to win the club trick. You have to hope that partner has SJx. I
bet the defense slipped here also (probably doesn't make difference on the
actual hand, but it might).
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: I see.
: But it was too hard for a player in Polish national team trial. and most
: commentators have more sympathy with not shifting to spades.
:
: wouldn
: hold
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 26 In general I agree, you need more than black-or-white messages; if a certain
signal means discouraging a shift, then not having this signal only means "
not discouraging", it doesn't automatically mean encouraging.
However, the situation for this hand is unique in that, declarer's shape is
more or less well-known. Partner has only 2 spades, and he knows that you
know it too. In this kind of situation, you have to make a decision and go
along with it. It may not always be 100% correct, but ambiguity will cost
more. Partner should rely on you to make that decision, simply because
partner cannot know the diamond situation. Even though DQx is unlikely (but
not impossible, as some crazy bidder may have 4225 shape), stiff DQ is
certainly not out-of-question.
It is a bit complicated, but at least on paper, partner should figure out
that you will only discourage diamonds with SAQ, or when you truly don't
have DQ. All other cases should encourage diamonds. Once partner works this
out, the right defense will be clear. This is the highest level of
partnership defense: you need to think in partner's shoes, and vice versa,
and both know how other is thinking. Very difficult to develop, but when it
is well executed, it becomes an art.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: Here comes the logical flaw. If you encourage D, it means you can't stand a
: spade switch. However, if you discourage D, it doesn't mean you like S. It
: only means you are either neutral or positive in S. This makes a suit
: preference in S very attractive.
: If the second H holds, declarer is marked with 4-2-1-6 shape, DQx is simply
: impossible.
: Also, for holdings like AQxx, you should encourage S. For holdings like AJxx
: , you should be neutral. To distinguish them, a suit preference should work
: better here obviously. (you suggest S with the first holding, suggest C with
: the second holding and suggest D with weaker S holdings like ATxx.) This
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 27 If you really want, you can still use low/high/medium for discourage/
encourage/neutral here. You do not need more than one card to show neutral
here, since partner knows you have 5 diamonds, and that you have choice of
cards.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: Here comes the logical flaw. If you encourage D, it means you can't stand a
: spade switch. However, if you discourage D, it doesn't mean you like S. It
: only means you are either neutral or positive in S. This makes a suit
: preference in S very attractive.
: If the second H holds, declarer is marked with 4-2-1-6 shape, DQx is simply
: impossible.
: Also, for holdings like AQxx, you should encourage S. For holdings like AJxx
: , you should be neutral. To distinguish them, a suit preference should work
: better here obviously. (you suggest S with the first holding, suggest C with
: the second holding and suggest D with weaker S holdings like ATxx.) This
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 28 Well, it's nothing about art, just basic understanding of bridge signals. I
don't really think those who bash o/e or suit preferences really know what
they are doing.
certain
"
is
but
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: In general I agree, you need more than black-or-white messages; if a certain
: signal means discouraging a shift, then not having this signal only means "
: not discouraging", it doesn't automatically mean encouraging.
: However, the situation for this hand is unique in that, declarer's shape is
: more or less well-known. Partner has only 2 spades, and he knows that you
: know it too. In this kind of situation, you have to make a decision and go
: along with it. It may not always be 100% correct, but ambiguity will cost
: more. Partner should rely on you to make that decision, simply because
: partner cannot know the diamond situation. Even though DQx is unlikely (but
: not impossible, as some crazy bidder may have 4225 shape), stiff DQ is
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 29 He took almost 2 minutes consider his next move after King of hearts...
that is the live evidence, .... people who are playing in the Polish
national team trail are simply morons.
IMHO, you guys bickering about whose signal system is superior is not only
baseless, but also useless.
NO signal systems will work when partner tuned in a different wavelength.
The approach of twisting spot cards and hope it will deliver a clear message
is simply 纸上谈兵. because it makes the assumption that both partners are
always in the same wavelength, which is highly improbable in reality.
Diamond Q can cost your a trick when you are wrong, but not the contract.
When you are right, it can rip off huge profit for SURE.
That's my choice and I will appreciate it if partner did that and even he
turned out to be wrong.
under
I
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: Well, as you said before, it is easier to 纸上谈兵.
: This is not a difficult hand, but it is very easy to slip in defense.
: Continuing with 3rd heart seems innocent, most people will do it without
: much thinking. Even experts, when tired, may just do the "automatic" heart
: continuation.
: Another point in defense: suppose partner did continue heart at trick 3 (a
: mistake), now when declarer ruffs and draws trump, you should throw CQ under
: CK, refuse to win the club trick. You have to hope that partner has SJx. I
: bet the defense slipped here also (probably doesn't make difference on the
: actual hand, but it might).
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 30 The defense is very simple if you play suit preference on the first trick.
Suppose you pitch D9, asking for a spade switch. If your partner plays
anything else, he makes a huge mistake.
Suppose you play o/e and play D8 which denies D and asking ask for S and
your partner plays anything else, it's also a huge mistake.
It's such a simple problem if you simply give reliable and clear signals
when possible. D 9 for suit preference or D8 for o/e are as clear as D Q in
your problem and they don't have the drawbacks DQ may have.
message
are
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: He took almost 2 minutes consider his next move after King of hearts...
: that is the live evidence, .... people who are playing in the Polish
: national team trail are simply morons.
: IMHO, you guys bickering about whose signal system is superior is not only
: baseless, but also useless.
: NO signal systems will work when partner tuned in a different wavelength.
: The approach of twisting spot cards and hope it will deliver a clear message
: is simply 纸上谈兵. because it makes the assumption that both partners are
: always in the same wavelength, which is highly improbable in reality.
: Diamond Q can cost your a trick when you are wrong, but not the contract.
| | | w****b
发帖数: 623 | 31 if you are playing some partner you have no plan to dump immediately, he
should know what he's doing, so this HK is likely going to cash.
I play udca so I pitch S2, what's the issue here? Pd may not have SJ, and he
might be able to get a S ruff. I don't see how you can possibly get 4S
tricks so no need to muddle the water with D pitch.
If you have AQT8, that'll be different. But god didn't deal you S2 without a
reason.
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: IMP, 你方有局
: --------- S K97
: --------- H 8732
: --------- D AKJ6
: --------- C T3
: S AQT2
: H Q
: D Q9874
: C Q76
: 3H (P) P (4C)
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 32 This also works, but suit preference on the first discard certainly has some
intrinsic advantages in situations like this.
he
a
【在 w****b 的大作中提到】
: if you are playing some partner you have no plan to dump immediately, he
: should know what he's doing, so this HK is likely going to cash.
: I play udca so I pitch S2, what's the issue here? Pd may not have SJ, and he
: might be able to get a S ruff. I don't see how you can possibly get 4S
: tricks so no need to muddle the water with D pitch.
: If you have AQT8, that'll be different. But god didn't deal you S2 without a
: reason.
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 33 if HK likely going to cash, then DQ stands out.
and if partner had Jx in spades, you may get 4 spade tricks.:-)
he
a
【在 w****b 的大作中提到】
: if you are playing some partner you have no plan to dump immediately, he
: should know what he's doing, so this HK is likely going to cash.
: I play udca so I pitch S2, what's the issue here? Pd may not have SJ, and he
: might be able to get a S ruff. I don't see how you can possibly get 4S
: tricks so no need to muddle the water with D pitch.
: If you have AQT8, that'll be different. But god didn't deal you S2 without a
: reason.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 34 How do you ever get 4 spade tricks unless partner has J8?
I think DQ is a fine play if you are sure that HK will cash. But what makes
you so sure?
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: if HK likely going to cash, then DQ stands out.
: and if partner had Jx in spades, you may get 4 spade tricks.:-)
:
: he
: a
| a****s
发帖数: 524 | 35 What I meant to say was 3 spades and ruff with CJ, then heart, 5 down
anything possible, right? :-)
makes
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: How do you ever get 4 spade tricks unless partner has J8?
: I think DQ is a fine play if you are sure that HK will cash. But what makes
: you so sure?
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 36 Why CJ? Maybe partner can ruff with stiff CK. Anything possible, right? :-)
【在 a****s 的大作中提到】
: What I meant to say was 3 spades and ruff with CJ, then heart, 5 down
: anything possible, right? :-)
:
: makes
|
|
