T*******t
发帖数: 18 | 1 现在tenure track第四年，被邀请申请一个open rank position. 申请信里也注明了申
请tenured associate professor。 结果现在口头offer告知给tenure track
assistant professor 位置。不知讨价还价的余地有不少，要注意些什么吗？ |
a*****k
发帖数: 974 | 2 要个 tenure-track associate professor，或许有可能。
直接要tenure肯定没戏。
你这个是 move up or down？ |
T*******t
发帖数: 18 | 3 申请的学校综合排名高一些，专业排名高不少。看来更没戏了。谢谢你的回复。
【在 a*****k 的大作中提到】
: 要个 tenure-track associate professor，或许有可能。
: 直接要tenure肯定没戏。
: 你这个是 move up or down？
|
f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 4 did they tell you when you can be up for tenure?
【在 T*******t 的大作中提到】
: 现在tenure track第四年，被邀请申请一个open rank position. 申请信里也注明了申
: 请tenured associate professor。 结果现在口头offer告知给tenure track
: assistant professor 位置。不知讨价还价的余地有不少，要注意些什么吗？
|
s******g
发帖数: 3841 | 5 如果是这样，那给tenure track ap已经很不错了。怎么可能一个低排名学校，3、4年
的ap，来高排名的地方反而直接tenure？你让在他们系里的ap怎么想
你想过舒服日子就去排名低的学校，直接tenure
【在 T*******t 的大作中提到】
: 申请的学校综合排名高一些，专业排名高不少。看来更没戏了。谢谢你的回复。
|
n*******l
发帖数: 2911 | 6 我估计能给你三年Credit toward tenure就不错了, 除非你是超级明星。
【在 T*******t 的大作中提到】
: 申请的学校综合排名高一些，专业排名高不少。看来更没戏了。谢谢你的回复。
|
A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 7 How much money i.e. grants do you have?
【在 T*******t 的大作中提到】
: 现在tenure track第四年，被邀请申请一个open rank position. 申请信里也注明了申
: 请tenured associate professor。 结果现在口头offer告知给tenure track
: assistant professor 位置。不知讨价还价的余地有不少，要注意些什么吗？
|
l*****g
发帖数: 2087 | 8 取决于综合考虑后你有多想去
如果不是很强烈，不给tenure就不走呗
【在 T*******t 的大作中提到】
: 现在tenure track第四年，被邀请申请一个open rank position. 申请信里也注明了申
: 请tenured associate professor。 结果现在口头offer告知给tenure track
: assistant professor 位置。不知讨价还价的余地有不少，要注意些什么吗？
|
g**********y
发帖数: 451 | 9 你问一下他们你是否可以提前上tenure. 不要把具体时间说死（比如三年后上之类的）
，因为你去哪里和刚开始做AP差不多，不一定保证很快就出东西。当然，如果是你不需
要实验室之类的，那当别论。
【在 T*******t 的大作中提到】
: 现在tenure track第四年，被邀请申请一个open rank position. 申请信里也注明了申
: 请tenured associate professor。 结果现在口头offer告知给tenure track
: assistant professor 位置。不知讨价还价的余地有不少，要注意些什么吗？
|
l*****g
发帖数: 2087 | 10 如果给三年credit，是不是还要问问在新学校的tenure funding要求
【在 n*******l 的大作中提到】
: 我估计能给你三年Credit toward tenure就不错了, 除非你是超级明星。
|
|
|
n*******l
发帖数: 2911 | 11 我觉得那是当然要问清楚的.
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 如果给三年credit，是不是还要问问在新学校的tenure funding要求
|
r****e
发帖数: 3109 | 12 这显然没有任何余地。
【在 T*******t 的大作中提到】
: 现在tenure track第四年，被邀请申请一个open rank position. 申请信里也注明了申
: 请tenured associate professor。 结果现在口头offer告知给tenure track
: assistant professor 位置。不知讨价还价的余地有不少，要注意些什么吗？
|
d*****e
发帖数: 172 | 13 往上走得话，觉得弄个tenured位置不太可能，要问清楚tenure的条件，以前的credit
（现在学校的文章，经费等）算不算数 |
w*******y
发帖数: 168 | 14 那边学校给你offer了啊？
【在 T*******t 的大作中提到】
: 现在tenure track第四年，被邀请申请一个open rank position. 申请信里也注明了申
: 请tenured associate professor。 结果现在口头offer告知给tenure track
: assistant professor 位置。不知讨价还价的余地有不少，要注意些什么吗？
|
p******e
发帖数: 1151 | 15 Try to get tenured from your university first with your outside offer. If
your department wants to keep you, they usually do this--- tenure and
salary raise.
Just let the department head know you have an offer from another better
university. It is normal and you should let the department know when you
have such an offer. The department will do what they can to keep you
typically.
Once you have your tenured offer from department, you can ask gentlly again
for tenure---it can be good, and it should not go wrong ( if you are polite
, they will not be irritated. That seems to be typical in States).
It will be still hard to get a tenured offer from outside, but you have a
better chance. |
O*****a
发帖数: 11621 | 16 这个好象双刃剑啊... - -
If
again
polite
【在 p******e 的大作中提到】
: Try to get tenured from your university first with your outside offer. If
: your department wants to keep you, they usually do this--- tenure and
: salary raise.
: Just let the department head know you have an offer from another better
: university. It is normal and you should let the department know when you
: have such an offer. The department will do what they can to keep you
: typically.
: Once you have your tenured offer from department, you can ask gentlly again
: for tenure---it can be good, and it should not go wrong ( if you are polite
: , they will not be irritated. That seems to be typical in States).
|
a*****k
发帖数: 974 | |
d*****e
发帖数: 172 | 18 Good strategy, but I did see one department head reply to all the faculty
with 'Congratulations' as start, and 'wish you all the best' at the end.
Be careful with it.
If
again
polite
【在 p******e 的大作中提到】
: Try to get tenured from your university first with your outside offer. If
: your department wants to keep you, they usually do this--- tenure and
: salary raise.
: Just let the department head know you have an offer from another better
: university. It is normal and you should let the department know when you
: have such an offer. The department will do what they can to keep you
: typically.
: Once you have your tenured offer from department, you can ask gentlly again
: for tenure---it can be good, and it should not go wrong ( if you are polite
: , they will not be irritated. That seems to be typical in States).
|
p******e
发帖数: 1151 | 19 I believe many guys misunderstand what I said.
It is not playing a politics game. There are clear boundaries how/when you
say that.
You should let the department head know when you have an offer and consider
to leave. (You do not want to wait until last minute to let him/her know, it
is also not good for many aspects).
But no one should say something like give me tenure, otherwise I leave.
If you are an asset (an offer from a much better univ shows that), a typical
movement of the department/dean is to offer something they can do to keep
you. However, if they do not do that, and if you haven't made decision to
move or not, don't push.
It is unusual in this case department head would say something like 'wish
you all the best'.
However, in many cases, even you only mention the fact that you have an
outside offer, the department will do something. In my field (and many
universities), there are too many cases that people get promoted/salary
raise this way. It is a common phenomenon.
University also wants to keep good faculties. Simple like that.
【在 d*****e 的大作中提到】
: Good strategy, but I did see one department head reply to all the faculty
: with 'Congratulations' as start, and 'wish you all the best' at the end.
: Be careful with it.
:
: If
: again
: polite
|
L***s
发帖数: 9258 | 20 说的好，但是很多时候学校就只给两周考虑时间，那怎么办呢？tenure这种事情不是两
周内能解决的吧？
consider
it
typical
【在 p******e 的大作中提到】
: I believe many guys misunderstand what I said.
: It is not playing a politics game. There are clear boundaries how/when you
: say that.
: You should let the department head know when you have an offer and consider
: to leave. (You do not want to wait until last minute to let him/her know, it
: is also not good for many aspects).
: But no one should say something like give me tenure, otherwise I leave.
: If you are an asset (an offer from a much better univ shows that), a typical
: movement of the department/dean is to offer something they can do to keep
: you. However, if they do not do that, and if you haven't made decision to
|
|
|
d*****i
发帖数: 52 | |
d*****e
发帖数: 172 | 22 你说得也不错，我只是想提醒lz实行的时候，要注意拿捏分寸，而且还会有一些意想不
到的事情发生
consider
it
typical
【在 p******e 的大作中提到】
: I believe many guys misunderstand what I said.
: It is not playing a politics game. There are clear boundaries how/when you
: say that.
: You should let the department head know when you have an offer and consider
: to leave. (You do not want to wait until last minute to let him/her know, it
: is also not good for many aspects).
: But no one should say something like give me tenure, otherwise I leave.
: If you are an asset (an offer from a much better univ shows that), a typical
: movement of the department/dean is to offer something they can do to keep
: you. However, if they do not do that, and if you haven't made decision to
|
f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 23 faculty move一般不会有这么short的deadline的。从口头offer到paper offer都可能
有过半年的时间， 以前的学校有足够的时间准备counter offer.
【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 说的好，但是很多时候学校就只给两周考虑时间，那怎么办呢？tenure这种事情不是两
: 周内能解决的吧？
:
: consider
: it
: typical
|
w*******y
发帖数: 168 | 24 I think your current department can not give you a tenured offer, it is the
provst and president give you the final tenured offer. |
L***s
发帖数: 9258 | 25 那我就不明白所谓的counter offer是怎么给的，尤其是那种tenured professor。
the
【在 w*******y 的大作中提到】
: I think your current department can not give you a tenured offer, it is the
: provst and president give you the final tenured offer.
|
a***r
发帖数: 981 | 26 真正的 counteroffer 应该是本校拿到对方院校的 offer后, 尽量逐条 match,
工资, teaching release, research fund 都好说, 如果原先没 tenured的,
还是要走P&T程序的.
即使拿到 tenured associate professor 的职位, 在对方院校也还是要走程序的.
只不过程序要简单些, 比如正常情况要六个outside reviewers, 他们可能只另找三个,
把你申请工作时候用的推荐信也用上. 本人和系主任也还是要为这个case准备材料,
也还是要经过院级,学校级的APT委员会的批准, 也还是要等好几个月才有最终的消息.
只不过胜算很大就是了.
所以如果想走, 不等到几个月之后tenure review 的最终消息, 在本校依然要 keep it
confidential, P&T消息通知之后,才能给 letter of resignation. 毕竟什么都还有
可能发生.
【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 那我就不明白所谓的counter offer是怎么给的，尤其是那种tenured professor。
:
: the
|
L***s
发帖数: 9258 | 27 这么复杂啊？
个,
it
【在 a***r 的大作中提到】
: 真正的 counteroffer 应该是本校拿到对方院校的 offer后, 尽量逐条 match,
: 工资, teaching release, research fund 都好说, 如果原先没 tenured的,
: 还是要走P&T程序的.
: 即使拿到 tenured associate professor 的职位, 在对方院校也还是要走程序的.
: 只不过程序要简单些, 比如正常情况要六个outside reviewers, 他们可能只另找三个,
: 把你申请工作时候用的推荐信也用上. 本人和系主任也还是要为这个case准备材料,
: 也还是要经过院级,学校级的APT委员会的批准, 也还是要等好几个月才有最终的消息.
: 只不过胜算很大就是了.
: 所以如果想走, 不等到几个月之后tenure review 的最终消息, 在本校依然要 keep it
: confidential, P&T消息通知之后,才能给 letter of resignation. 毕竟什么都还有
|
a***r
发帖数: 981 | 28 上面的人说了, tenure decision 是需要校长和董事会批的, 是学校对个人的
commitment, 应该都需要按照章程办事. 学校就是一个大的bureaucracy 嘛.
一般学校先处理本校教授的 tenure 和 promotion 的案例, 最后才轮到 hiring
这些人的案例, 历时更长些. Patience is a virtue. :)
【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 这么复杂啊？
:
: 个,
: it
|
a***r
发帖数: 981 | 29 对了, keep it confidential 是针对学生和其他同事说的. 想从本校要 counteroffer
一旦对方有了书面的东东就可以通知本校系主任了. 另外虽然 P&T历时比较久, 但其他
需要签字的文件(比如offer letter/acceptance letter) 如果想走, 都是早早就可以
签好了的, 只不过 contingent on board of trustees' approval (P&T review 之后)
就是了.
【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 这么复杂啊？
:
: 个,
: it
|
L***s
发帖数: 9258 | 30 万一tenure在新申请的学校被decline呢？岂不是倒霉了...
counteroffer
后)
【在 a***r 的大作中提到】
: 对了, keep it confidential 是针对学生和其他同事说的. 想从本校要 counteroffer
: 一旦对方有了书面的东东就可以通知本校系主任了. 另外虽然 P&T历时比较久, 但其他
: 需要签字的文件(比如offer letter/acceptance letter) 如果想走, 都是早早就可以
: 签好了的, 只不过 contingent on board of trustees' approval (P&T review 之后)
: 就是了.
|
|
|
a***r
发帖数: 981 | 31 不是没可能, 只是可能极小而已. 比如半路杀出个很 negative 的outside reviewer.
但offer letter上标明tenured associate professor, 就说明系主任,院长,provost
都同意了, APT committiees 会酌情考虑.
【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 万一tenure在新申请的学校被decline呢？岂不是倒霉了...
:
: counteroffer
: 后)
|
s**********e
发帖数: 33562 | 32 这种情况下就可以高高兴兴地去买彩票了
【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 万一tenure在新申请的学校被decline呢？岂不是倒霉了...
:
: counteroffer
: 后)
|
w*******y
发帖数: 168 | 33 请教：
1）您说的P&T是指啥？
1） 是一拿到对方纸质的offer 就通知本系？还是等到签offer的Deadline 再通知本系
？毕竟大概有2周的时间
2）现在已经是快4月份了，如果楼主到4月份甚至5月份才告知本系说9月份去其他学校
了，本系来不及再招人了，这个是否影响不好啊？
3）个人估计不会有counter offer, 如果对方学校更好，本校也知道的，即使给你加工
资，加support，也留不住你的。
【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 万一tenure在新申请的学校被decline呢？岂不是倒霉了...
:
: counteroffer
: 后)
|
w*******y
发帖数: 168 | 34 还有，新的学校如何evalute他的teaching performance? 毕竟需要本校的evalution
record.申请人要把自己的teaching evaluation record, 还有本系的平均evaluaiton
record, 学生对自己的comments (很多是negative吧？）统统发给对方学校啊？
个,
it
【在 a***r 的大作中提到】
: 真正的 counteroffer 应该是本校拿到对方院校的 offer后, 尽量逐条 match,
: 工资, teaching release, research fund 都好说, 如果原先没 tenured的,
: 还是要走P&T程序的.
: 即使拿到 tenured associate professor 的职位, 在对方院校也还是要走程序的.
: 只不过程序要简单些, 比如正常情况要六个outside reviewers, 他们可能只另找三个,
: 把你申请工作时候用的推荐信也用上. 本人和系主任也还是要为这个case准备材料,
: 也还是要经过院级,学校级的APT委员会的批准, 也还是要等好几个月才有最终的消息.
: 只不过胜算很大就是了.
: 所以如果想走, 不等到几个月之后tenure review 的最终消息, 在本校依然要 keep it
: confidential, P&T消息通知之后,才能给 letter of resignation. 毕竟什么都还有
|
w*******y
发帖数: 168 | 35 您说的 “只不过 contingent on board of trustees' approval ” 是如果理解？
1）board of trustees' approval 是指对方学校的Tenure commitee 和president的批
准？
2）签对方学校的offer的时候，先签自己的名字再在边上手写上“I accept your
offer contingent on board of trustees' approval”? 就是说在你们学校Tenure
commitee 和president的批准我才接受这个offer?
Thanks a lot!
counteroffer
后)
【在 a***r 的大作中提到】
: 对了, keep it confidential 是针对学生和其他同事说的. 想从本校要 counteroffer
: 一旦对方有了书面的东东就可以通知本校系主任了. 另外虽然 P&T历时比较久, 但其他
: 需要签字的文件(比如offer letter/acceptance letter) 如果想走, 都是早早就可以
: 签好了的, 只不过 contingent on board of trustees' approval (P&T review 之后)
: 就是了.
|
a***r
发帖数: 981 | 36 一般需要至少最近三年之内的 teaching evaluation record,
以及每个学期系里或院里的 average. raw data 有可能要,
data summary table 基本必须要.
evaluaiton
【在 w*******y 的大作中提到】
: 还有，新的学校如何evalute他的teaching performance? 毕竟需要本校的evalution
: record.申请人要把自己的teaching evaluation record, 还有本系的平均evaluaiton
: record, 学生对自己的comments (很多是negative吧？）统统发给对方学校啊？
:
: 个,
: it
|
f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 37 AAU联盟的大学对于recruit别的学校的faculty有一个4.30协议（有点类似申请
graduate school的4.15协议）。这个协议要求正式的offer必须在4.30之前给出，如果
来不及的话，要挖人的学校要给被挖的学校一个formal notification & request for
permission to hire the candidate.
【在 w*******y 的大作中提到】
: 您说的 “只不过 contingent on board of trustees' approval ” 是如果理解？
: 1）board of trustees' approval 是指对方学校的Tenure commitee 和president的批
: 准？
: 2）签对方学校的offer的时候，先签自己的名字再在边上手写上“I accept your
: offer contingent on board of trustees' approval”? 就是说在你们学校Tenure
: commitee 和president的批准我才接受这个offer?
: Thanks a lot!
:
: counteroffer
: 后)
|
w*******y
发帖数: 168 | 38 Very good point!
另外，Dossier里面的本校系主任的support letter, 甚至dean's support letter都要
给对方发过去啊？虽然是非常positive,但是会不会violate certain rules?
非常感谢！
for
【在 f*******7 的大作中提到】
: AAU联盟的大学对于recruit别的学校的faculty有一个4.30协议（有点类似申请
: graduate school的4.15协议）。这个协议要求正式的offer必须在4.30之前给出，如果
: 来不及的话，要挖人的学校要给被挖的学校一个formal notification & request for
: permission to hire the candidate.
|
f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 39 你现在学校的chair/dean's support letter for tenure review? I don't see how
that's relevant for the tenure review at your future school. They will do an
independent tenure review on you.
【在 w*******y 的大作中提到】
: Very good point!
: 另外，Dossier里面的本校系主任的support letter, 甚至dean's support letter都要
: 给对方发过去啊？虽然是非常positive,但是会不会violate certain rules?
: 非常感谢！
:
: for
|
w*******y
发帖数: 168 | 40 Thanks. The material source are different. For example, the current chair
has the detail teaching comments and evaluation scores. Future school has no
these data sources in such detail. I just concerned for any violation of
rules if sharing those materials (Chair's letter) with another school
without Chair's permission.
an
【在 f*******7 的大作中提到】
: 你现在学校的chair/dean's support letter for tenure review? I don't see how
: that's relevant for the tenure review at your future school. They will do an
: independent tenure review on you.
|
|
|
a***r
发帖数: 981 | 41 a rule of thumb: 对方院校要什么就给什么. 不要节外生枝. 每个学校 promotion
and tenure review 需要的材料都未必一样, 按照人家提供的list准备就是了.
no
【在 w*******y 的大作中提到】
: Thanks. The material source are different. For example, the current chair
: has the detail teaching comments and evaluation scores. Future school has no
: these data sources in such detail. I just concerned for any violation of
: rules if sharing those materials (Chair's letter) with another school
: without Chair's permission.
:
: an
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a***r
发帖数: 981 | 42 RE
an
【在 f*******7 的大作中提到】
: 你现在学校的chair/dean's support letter for tenure review? I don't see how
: that's relevant for the tenure review at your future school. They will do an
: independent tenure review on you.
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f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 43 yes. just provide whatever is requested by the future hiring dept. if they
need something they will let you know
【在 a***r 的大作中提到】
: a rule of thumb: 对方院校要什么就给什么. 不要节外生枝. 每个学校 promotion
: and tenure review 需要的材料都未必一样, 按照人家提供的list准备就是了.
:
: no
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f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 44 in my experience the chair wasn't allowed to provide a formal offer until
the tenure review went through, so it took 7 months from oral to written
offer, but once the written offer was given, it was official and final.
【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 万一tenure在新申请的学校被decline呢？岂不是倒霉了...
:
: counteroffer
: 后)
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L***s
发帖数: 9258 | 45 Oh... 看来也是想走就能走得。
【在 f*******7 的大作中提到】
: in my experience the chair wasn't allowed to provide a formal offer until
: the tenure review went through, so it took 7 months from oral to written
: offer, but once the written offer was given, it was official and final.
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w*******y
发帖数: 168 | 46 I am sorry I did not get it.
Chair's oral offer -->7 month review--> Written offer?
OR:
7 month review--> Chair's oral offer and then written offer?
【在 f*******7 的大作中提到】
: in my experience the chair wasn't allowed to provide a formal offer until
: the tenure review went through, so it took 7 months from oral to written
: offer, but once the written offer was given, it was official and final.
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f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 47 #1 but negotiation of offer also takes time
【在 w*******y 的大作中提到】
: I am sorry I did not get it.
: Chair's oral offer -->7 month review--> Written offer?
: OR:
: 7 month review--> Chair's oral offer and then written offer?
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a***r
发帖数: 981 | 48 我了解的情况是对方系主任院长和个人经谈判协商后确定了 job offer 的具体内容后,
经 provost 审批, 由 provost 发出正式的 offer letter, 需要candidate 尽量在
两周内签字表示接受. offer letter 被取消的唯一条件是 Board of Trustees 否决.
这个投票是要在 tenure & promotion review 之后发生. 也就是几个月之后.
但是 written offer letter 离 oral offer 只有几个星期.
所以这个过程应该是因学校而异的.
【在 f*******7 的大作中提到】
: in my experience the chair wasn't allowed to provide a formal offer until
: the tenure review went through, so it took 7 months from oral to written
: offer, but once the written offer was given, it was official and final.
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f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 49 certainly different schools have different procedures.
后,
【在 a***r 的大作中提到】
: 我了解的情况是对方系主任院长和个人经谈判协商后确定了 job offer 的具体内容后,
: 经 provost 审批, 由 provost 发出正式的 offer letter, 需要candidate 尽量在
: 两周内签字表示接受. offer letter 被取消的唯一条件是 Board of Trustees 否决.
: 这个投票是要在 tenure & promotion review 之后发生. 也就是几个月之后.
: 但是 written offer letter 离 oral offer 只有几个星期.
: 所以这个过程应该是因学校而异的.
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