C*******r
发帖数: 10345 | 1 Repeal the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law
The “Stand Your Ground” laws in Florida and other states should all be
repealed. At best, they are redundant. At worst, as in the Trayvon Martin
killing, they are nothing but a license to kill.
Police in Sanford, Fla., cited the statute as grounds for their decision not
to file charges against Martin’s killer, George Zimmerman. Martin, 17, was
strolling home from a convenience store, armed with an iced tea and a bag
of Skittles, when Zimmerman — a neighborhood watch volunteer and wannabe
police officer — spotted him and decided he looked suspicious.
Zimmerman, who is 28, happened to be armed with a handgun. He followed
Martin, despite instructions from a 911 operator not to do so. They had an
encounter that left Zimmerman suffering from minor injuries and Martin dead
on the ground from a gunshot wound. While we don’t know exactly what
happened, we know that Zimmerman initiated the contact by stalking a young
man who had done nothing more sinister than walk down the street wearing a
hooded sweatshirt.
Police decided to release Zimmerman without charges because of the Stand
Your Ground law. The relevant part of the statute says that “a person who
is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked . . .
has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and
meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably
believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm.”
Zimmerman claimed self-defense, was given the benefit of the doubt required
by law and released.
This was a shocking travesty, as we now know. The “person who [was] not
engaged in an unlawful activity and who [was] attacked” was Martin. Under
the Florida law, as I read it, he had every right to feel he was in “
imminent peril of death or great bodily harm” from the stranger who was
following him. He had every right to confront Zimmerman — to stand his
ground — and even to use deadly force, if necessary, to defend himself.
Imagine that Martin, not Zimmerman, had been carrying a legal handgun — and
that it was Zimmerman who ended up dead. The law should have compelled
police to release Martin, a young African American in a hoodie, without
charges.
Somehow, I doubt that would have happened.
The consensus view, which I’ve heard expressed by supporters of Stand Your
Ground, is that police were wrong to extend the law’s self-defense immunity
to Zimmerman so quickly without a more thorough investigation — and that,
given what we have learned about Zimmerman’s pursuit of Martin, the law
does not seem to apply.
But why does Florida, or any other state, need this statute? State laws
already allowed the use of deadly force in self-defense. By making explicit
that the person who feels threatened has no obligation to retreat, all the
state Legislature accomplished was to lessen the odds that a hot-tempered
confrontation would be allowed to cool down without violence.
The Florida law took effect in 2005. Five years later, the Tampa Bay Times
said that reports of justifiable homicide across the state had tripled. The
newspaper found cases in which the protection of Stand Your Ground had been
invoked by persons who felt — perhaps with good reason, perhaps not — that
they faced imminent attack in their homes. Those incidents were at least in
keeping with the intent of the legislation. But the newspaper also found
the law being used to excuse violence committed during fights at house
parties, disputes between neighbors and disagreements in public parks.
“Gangsters are using this law to have gunfights,” state’s attorney Willie
Meggs told the Times.
Following Florida’s lead, about 20 states have enacted similar legislation.
I doubt you will be surprised to hear that the National Rifle Association
has lobbied hard to get these dangerous and unnecessary statutes approved.
These laws encourage hotheads to go into potential confrontations with
loaded firearms. They give permission to shoot first and ask questions later
. This may be good for gun manufacturers, funeral homes and the NRA, but it
’s tragic for justice in America. |
C*******r
发帖数: 10345 | 2 华盛顿邮报今日刊登的Stand Your Ground Law的漫画 |
C*******d
发帖数: 15836 | 3 可见这种杂志是多烂了。
没有这种用法律，唯一的结局就是地痞流氓就可以放心大胆的在街上狂殴痛扁普通人了
。 |
T******g
发帖数: 21328 | |
d*****h
发帖数: 1266 | 5 What a sad thing!
Zimmerman guilty or not has nothing to do with Stand on your ground law.
If his statement is true, being beaten by the boy on the ground, without
stand on your ground law, he still has the right to protect himself using
deadly weapon.
Only the law abiding citizens will suffer, criminal will commit crime
regardless of laws.
What a twisted media! Why don't the media tell more stories about how law
abiding citizens protect themselves using stand on your ground law. Most
people don't really know about the law, just listen to the media, and think
it is the fault of stand on your ground.
Without stand on your ground law, imagine you are in a public area and you
see bad guys running towards you for robbery, now even with weapon in your
waist band, you still have to run away from them.
Is this what they want to see? |
k**0
发帖数: 19737 | 6 这帮傻X一个两个住在高级住宅区，弄不好还有警卫，自然不但心有人闯空门。 |
s**********d
发帖数: 36899 | 7
zimmerman也住gated community。
【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 这帮傻X一个两个住在高级住宅区，弄不好还有警卫，自然不但心有人闯空门。
|
T*R
发帖数: 25894 | 8 美国的gated community绝大多数都是joke.
【在 s**********d 的大作中提到】
:
: zimmerman也住gated community。
|
H******S
发帖数: 6011 | 9 同意。以为在gated Community的就是中产或高档区的就是安全的就大错特错了。
【在 T*R 的大作中提到】
: 美国的gated community绝大多数都是joke.
|
s*******n
发帖数: 12995 | 10 gated community basicly means please rob other easy target communities.
【在 H******S 的大作中提到】
: 同意。以为在gated Community的就是中产或高档区的就是安全的就大错特错了。
|
|
|
H******S
发帖数: 6011 | 11 呵呵，另外谁能保证同住一个gated community里的就一定是好人？很多毒贩，杀人犯
，恋童癖的也会打扮得光鲜靓丽住豪宅里的。
【在 s*******n 的大作中提到】
: gated community basicly means please rob other easy target communities.
|
H*******o
发帖数: 504 | 12 这条法律当然跟这个案子有关系，你只提了如果zimmerman说的是真的的情况，如果反
之，这条法律直接影响zimmerman是否有罪
think
【在 d*****h 的大作中提到】
: What a sad thing!
: Zimmerman guilty or not has nothing to do with Stand on your ground law.
: If his statement is true, being beaten by the boy on the ground, without
: stand on your ground law, he still has the right to protect himself using
: deadly weapon.
: Only the law abiding citizens will suffer, criminal will commit crime
: regardless of laws.
: What a twisted media! Why don't the media tell more stories about how law
: abiding citizens protect themselves using stand on your ground law. Most
: people don't really know about the law, just listen to the media, and think
|
H*******o
发帖数: 504 | 13 这条法律当然跟这个案子有关系，你只提了如果zimmerman说的是真的的情况，如果反
之，这条法律直接影响zimmerman是否有罪
think
【在 d*****h 的大作中提到】
: What a sad thing!
: Zimmerman guilty or not has nothing to do with Stand on your ground law.
: If his statement is true, being beaten by the boy on the ground, without
: stand on your ground law, he still has the right to protect himself using
: deadly weapon.
: Only the law abiding citizens will suffer, criminal will commit crime
: regardless of laws.
: What a twisted media! Why don't the media tell more stories about how law
: abiding citizens protect themselves using stand on your ground law. Most
: people don't really know about the law, just listen to the media, and think
|
d*****h
发帖数: 1266 | 14 if his statement is not ture and he is the one attacking, the law doesn't
apply to him.
【在 H*******o 的大作中提到】
: 这条法律当然跟这个案子有关系，你只提了如果zimmerman说的是真的的情况，如果反
: 之，这条法律直接影响zimmerman是否有罪
:
: think
|
z****c
发帖数: 602 | 15 我觉得florida的城堡法则还是有问题的。这件事是zimmerman先挑起来的，之后两人有
言语冲突，谁先动的手不好说，然后zimmerman在肢体冲突占下风后动了枪。zimmerman
没有执法权在concealed carry的情况下应该主动避让冲突,而不是上前confront
Martin。如果城堡法则保护这样的案例，很容易被人滥用：如果我跟谁有仇又知道他今
天没带枪，我就揣把枪上去挑事儿就行了。
|
b***s
发帖数: 398 | |
C*******d
发帖数: 15836 | 17 没有求你看这个帖子吧？
【在 b***s 的大作中提到】
: 什么是痢剥肉？
: 说句人话不行吗？
: 烦死。
|
s**********e
发帖数: 2888 | 18 我觉得这条法律原则没啥，但是需要进一步的细化，到底啥叫ｙｏｕｒ ｇｒｏｕｎｄ
？不能就是一个原则性的解释，需要详细的给出法律解释。
zimmerman
【在 z****c 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得florida的城堡法则还是有问题的。这件事是zimmerman先挑起来的，之后两人有
: 言语冲突，谁先动的手不好说，然后zimmerman在肢体冲突占下风后动了枪。zimmerman
: 没有执法权在concealed carry的情况下应该主动避让冲突,而不是上前confront
: Martin。如果城堡法则保护这样的案例，很容易被人滥用：如果我跟谁有仇又知道他今
: 天没带枪，我就揣把枪上去挑事儿就行了。
:
|
b*******y
发帖数: 4304 | 19 法律原则是原则， 具体官司出来什么样还得看律师， 哈哈哈， 制度就这样
【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得这条法律原则没啥，但是需要进一步的细化，到底啥叫ｙｏｕｒ ｇｒｏｕｎｄ
: ？不能就是一个原则性的解释，需要详细的给出法律解释。
:
: zimmerman
|
l****g
发帖数: 5080 | 20 这种网络用语是比较麻烦，上次我还奇怪什么是神医来着，我还觉得也就华佗可以自称
一下神医什么着，和着现在神医变二道贩子的昵称了。
痢剥肉-》liberal.
【在 b***s 的大作中提到】
: 什么是痢剥肉？
: 说句人话不行吗？
: 烦死。
|
|
|
T******0
发帖数: 1071 | 21 至少佛州的城堡法，是有问题：Martin也应该stand his ground,那他被Zimmerman跟踪
，骚扰，打了Zimmerman,不也是self defense?
not
was
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: Repeal the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law
: The “Stand Your Ground” laws in Florida and other states should all be
: repealed. At best, they are redundant. At worst, as in the Trayvon Martin
: killing, they are nothing but a license to kill.
: Police in Sanford, Fla., cited the statute as grounds for their decision not
: to file charges against Martin’s killer, George Zimmerman. Martin, 17, was
: strolling home from a convenience store, armed with an iced tea and a bag
: of Skittles, when Zimmerman — a neighborhood watch volunteer and wannabe
: police officer — spotted him and decided he looked suspicious.
: Zimmerman, who is 28, happened to be armed with a handgun. He followed
|
C*******r
发帖数: 10345 | 22 要是反过来Zimmerman被打死（比如夺枪成功），可能还真只有判Martin正当防卫。
所以当冲突逐步升级，没法确定谁是first aggressor的情况下，也没人看见是枪的拥
有人首先试图出枪，还是另一方先试图夺枪，想定罪是很难的。
即使没有打死人，只打伤人，没有目击证人也很难。因为两方一个会说是对方出枪，另
一个会说是对方夺枪。没法知道真相。
【在 T******0 的大作中提到】
: 至少佛州的城堡法，是有问题：Martin也应该stand his ground,那他被Zimmerman跟踪
: ，骚扰，打了Zimmerman,不也是self defense?
:
: not
: was
|
l**w
发帖数: 865 | 23 That is exactly the problem of FL stand your own ground law.
Under that law, 当冲突逐步升级，没法确定谁是first aggressor的情况下, people
who shot first will win. 胜者为王，而不是遵守法律和秩序。
I prefer the law before 2005. It was limited to your own property, car or
working place. Now, you can excise "stand your own ground" everywhere.
同 stand your own ground 相反的是 duty to retreat。duty to retreat 并没有剥
夺自卫的权利，只要能证明撤退不现实， 还是可以合法还击的。
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: 要是反过来Zimmerman被打死（比如夺枪成功），可能还真只有判Martin正当防卫。
: 所以当冲突逐步升级，没法确定谁是first aggressor的情况下，也没人看见是枪的拥
: 有人首先试图出枪，还是另一方先试图夺枪，想定罪是很难的。
: 即使没有打死人，只打伤人，没有目击证人也很难。因为两方一个会说是对方出枪，另
: 一个会说是对方夺枪。没法知道真相。
|
C*******r
发帖数: 10345 | 24 俺觉得duty to retreat不合理。因为这把证明是否可以retreat的责任加在没有定罪的
人的身上。而且在这种不到一秒就要做相关生死的选择情况下，怎么思考duty to
retreat?
就比如这个案子，其实即使有duty to retreat，Zimmermann也是可以说Martin当时将
他打倒在地，又骑在他身上，使他无法安全撤退，所以开枪杀人。没有目击证人，无法
证实。
people
【在 l**w 的大作中提到】
: That is exactly the problem of FL stand your own ground law.
: Under that law, 当冲突逐步升级，没法确定谁是first aggressor的情况下, people
: who shot first will win. 胜者为王，而不是遵守法律和秩序。
: I prefer the law before 2005. It was limited to your own property, car or
: working place. Now, you can excise "stand your own ground" everywhere.
: 同 stand your own ground 相反的是 duty to retreat。duty to retreat 并没有剥
: 夺自卫的权利，只要能证明撤退不现实， 还是可以合法还击的。
|
n***s
发帖数: 10056 | 25 精辟！
【在 T******g 的大作中提到】
: 太监要求大家一起割JJ
|
n***s
发帖数: 10056 | 26 You can test Martin's hands. If he was grabbing the gun, there will be gun
powder residue around his hands, forearms.
You can also test Martin's back hands for Zimmerman's DNS. When he punched
ZM, Z's DNS pieces would get on M's hand and M's DNS pieces would get on Z's
nose/face.
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: 要是反过来Zimmerman被打死（比如夺枪成功），可能还真只有判Martin正当防卫。
: 所以当冲突逐步升级，没法确定谁是first aggressor的情况下，也没人看见是枪的拥
: 有人首先试图出枪，还是另一方先试图夺枪，想定罪是很难的。
: 即使没有打死人，只打伤人，没有目击证人也很难。因为两方一个会说是对方出枪，另
: 一个会说是对方夺枪。没法知道真相。
|
C*******r
发帖数: 10345 | 27 You can also test Martin's back hands for Zimmerman's DNS. When he
punched
ZM, Z's DNS pieces would get on M's hand and M's DNS pieces would get on
Z's
nose/face.
这个可行。但是Sanford警方这群傻逼已经把尸体清洗过了。
另一个意义不大，因为不能排除：1.马丁试图抓枪但还没抓住齐默曼就开枪了。2.马丁
抓住枪，却被齐默曼挣脱，再试图抓的时候，齐默曼开枪。
问个问题，假如马丁没有击打齐默曼。马丁眼尖，一上来看到齐默曼有枪，就试图抓齐
默曼的枪，齐默曼手快，先拔出枪并开了一枪，这个算不算正当防卫？
gun
punched
on Z
's
【在 n***s 的大作中提到】
: You can test Martin's hands. If he was grabbing the gun, there will be gun
: powder residue around his hands, forearms.
: You can also test Martin's back hands for Zimmerman's DNS. When he punched
: ZM, Z's DNS pieces would get on M's hand and M's DNS pieces would get on Z's
: nose/face.
|
b********y
发帖数: 895 | 28 跟踪之类的这都不算生命威胁，所以Martin因为这个打Z的话，算不上self defense，
用不上城堡法的。
【在 T******0 的大作中提到】
: 至少佛州的城堡法，是有问题：Martin也应该stand his ground,那他被Zimmerman跟踪
: ，骚扰，打了Zimmerman,不也是self defense?
:
: not
: was
|
C*******r
发帖数: 10345 | 29 这个案子确实棘手。联邦和州的司法部门都接手一个礼拜了，还是没结论。
【在 b********y 的大作中提到】
: 跟踪之类的这都不算生命威胁，所以Martin因为这个打Z的话，算不上self defense，
: 用不上城堡法的。
|
n***s
发帖数: 10056 | 30
丁: 抓住枪，却被齐默曼挣脱，再试图抓的时候，齐默曼开枪。
齐: 默曼的枪，齐默曼手快，先拔出枪并开了一枪，这个算不算正当防卫？
I say 'Yes' since the consequence if M got the gun would be Z got shot.
Since the consequence is likely death, stand your ground applies. However,
this has to be decided by authority -- meaning, you can use deadly force in
the believe that your life is in immediate danger. But Jury or law
enforcement will decide if the danger is really true or just delusion.
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: 这个案子确实棘手。联邦和州的司法部门都接手一个礼拜了，还是没结论。
|
|
|
b****r
发帖数: 1395 | 31
没看懂什么是没有定罪的人。没有定罪的人是指defense还是指死者？
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: 俺觉得duty to retreat不合理。因为这把证明是否可以retreat的责任加在没有定罪的
: 人的身上。而且在这种不到一秒就要做相关生死的选择情况下，怎么思考duty to
: retreat?
: 就比如这个案子，其实即使有duty to retreat，Zimmermann也是可以说Martin当时将
: 他打倒在地，又骑在他身上，使他无法安全撤退，所以开枪杀人。没有目击证人，无法
: 证实。
:
: people
|
b****r
发帖数: 1395 | 32 现在看起来基本事实还很不清楚，证人证词也有矛盾，zimmerman都是通过
他人转述，也没有自己给出一个完整版本。其中还夹杂着很多不相干的信息，
比如martin是不是好人，抽不抽大麻...还有zimmerman一个月打了多少
个报警电话...现在确实不能随便下结论。
相对比较明确的是警察确实处理有点草率，这样的案子应该调查再仔细一些。
貌似警察内部也有分歧。到底当初基于什么理由判定是正当防卫的也没有完
整交代。
从种族角度来说，如果是黑人杀白人肯定被抓不是完全没有道理。
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: You can also test Martin's back hands for Zimmerman's DNS. When he
: punched
: ZM, Z's DNS pieces would get on M's hand and M's DNS pieces would get on
: Z's
: nose/face.
: 这个可行。但是Sanford警方这群傻逼已经把尸体清洗过了。
: 另一个意义不大，因为不能排除：1.马丁试图抓枪但还没抓住齐默曼就开枪了。2.马丁
: 抓住枪，却被齐默曼挣脱，再试图抓的时候，齐默曼开枪。
: 问个问题，假如马丁没有击打齐默曼。马丁眼尖，一上来看到齐默曼有枪，就试图抓齐
: 默曼的枪，齐默曼手快，先拔出枪并开了一枪，这个算不算正当防卫？
|
b****r
发帖数: 1395 | 33
这个还真难说，因为一个身强力壮的人来夺枪，很有可能被抢过去，开枪是合理的。
但是另外一方面，如果对方是个小孩，我自己身强力壮而且对方离枪还八丈远。这个时候
应该并不算是imminent threat。
我的另外一个问题是：
反过来，假设martin是好人，当他看到对方有枪的时候也采取stand your ground
来自卫——也就是去夺枪——无疑导致冲突升级。在这种情况下duty to retreat是否
会discourage冲突升级？
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: You can also test Martin's back hands for Zimmerman's DNS. When he
: punched
: ZM, Z's DNS pieces would get on M's hand and M's DNS pieces would get on
: Z's
: nose/face.
: 这个可行。但是Sanford警方这群傻逼已经把尸体清洗过了。
: 另一个意义不大，因为不能排除：1.马丁试图抓枪但还没抓住齐默曼就开枪了。2.马丁
: 抓住枪，却被齐默曼挣脱，再试图抓的时候，齐默曼开枪。
: 问个问题，假如马丁没有击打齐默曼。马丁眼尖，一上来看到齐默曼有枪，就试图抓齐
: 默曼的枪，齐默曼手快，先拔出枪并开了一枪，这个算不算正当防卫？
|
C*******r
发帖数: 10345 | 34 这个很难办，因为一方完全可以辩护说，在对方有枪（枪可及远，和有刀不同）的情况
下，无法安全retreat，也就谈不上duty to retreat. 这就是俺认为这个案子和stand
your ground与duty to retreat无关的原因。
时候
【在 b****r 的大作中提到】
:
: 这个还真难说，因为一个身强力壮的人来夺枪，很有可能被抢过去，开枪是合理的。
: 但是另外一方面，如果对方是个小孩，我自己身强力壮而且对方离枪还八丈远。这个时候
: 应该并不算是imminent threat。
: 我的另外一个问题是：
: 反过来，假设martin是好人，当他看到对方有枪的时候也采取stand your ground
: 来自卫——也就是去夺枪——无疑导致冲突升级。在这种情况下duty to retreat是否
: 会discourage冲突升级？
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d****e
发帖数: 2856 | 35 These fxxking liberals!
not
was
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: Repeal the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law
: The “Stand Your Ground” laws in Florida and other states should all be
: repealed. At best, they are redundant. At worst, as in the Trayvon Martin
: killing, they are nothing but a license to kill.
: Police in Sanford, Fla., cited the statute as grounds for their decision not
: to file charges against Martin’s killer, George Zimmerman. Martin, 17, was
: strolling home from a convenience store, armed with an iced tea and a bag
: of Skittles, when Zimmerman — a neighborhood watch volunteer and wannabe
: police officer — spotted him and decided he looked suspicious.
: Zimmerman, who is 28, happened to be armed with a handgun. He followed
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