f********1 发帖数: 24 | 1 自己研究了半天,问了broker,问了懂税务的人,还是没解决细节技术问题。版上大牛
赐教:
学习心得+背景:目前有roth ira 帐户。但预计今年收入已经超出roth限制,不能再直
接 contribute roth ira,只能用non-deductable Traditional ira 然后convert到
roth ira。
问题1: 可不可以开个2013年的Traditional ira帐户,我从自己口袋里掏5500放进
Traditional ira, 然后马上全额转到2013年的roth ira帐户?
问题2:convert的时候还要withhold federal and state tax吗? 放进Traditional
IRA的钱是我自己税后工资的钱,税都交过了,不应该再交了吧,不然就double tax了
!?
我自己觉得这样做应该没有问题,但broker再三警告我说“Traditional ira帐户的钱
是 take 了 tax benefit的”我转出来就要"pay for the benefit"。 而懂税务的人说
我想的是make sense,但到底要不要withhold tax需要IRS review了才知道!!
所以现在还是一头雾水。烦请大牛给我答疑解惑 |
f*******n 发帖数: 12623 | 2
可以。现在也还可以放2012年的IRA,如果你想的话。
不用withhold。我用过的IRA broker(Fidelity和Vanguard)在这个情况下都让你不
withhold的。你的Traditional IRA是当年放进去的,还没有到报税的时候决定deduct
或不deduct。在这个情况下没有理由要withhold的,因为你确实是打算不deduct,所以
是税后的钱。
【在 f********1 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 自己研究了半天,问了broker,问了懂税务的人,还是没解决细节技术问题。版上大牛 : 赐教: : 学习心得+背景:目前有roth ira 帐户。但预计今年收入已经超出roth限制,不能再直 : 接 contribute roth ira,只能用non-deductable Traditional ira 然后convert到 : roth ira。 : 问题1: 可不可以开个2013年的Traditional ira帐户,我从自己口袋里掏5500放进 : Traditional ira, 然后马上全额转到2013年的roth ira帐户? : 问题2:convert的时候还要withhold federal and state tax吗? 放进Traditional : IRA的钱是我自己税后工资的钱,税都交过了,不应该再交了吧,不然就double tax了 : !?
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y****g 发帖数: 285 | 3 是这样的,先开一个traditional IRA,然后转成Roth, Fidelity是5个工作日后就可以
转,转的时候有2个选择,选I elect not to withhold tax
deduct
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 可以。现在也还可以放2012年的IRA,如果你想的话。 : 不用withhold。我用过的IRA broker(Fidelity和Vanguard)在这个情况下都让你不 : withhold的。你的Traditional IRA是当年放进去的,还没有到报税的时候决定deduct : 或不deduct。在这个情况下没有理由要withhold的,因为你确实是打算不deduct,所以 : 是税后的钱。
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o*****e 发帖数: 871 | 4 Before you contribute to a non-deductible IRA, and convert to Roth IRA, make
sure all your non-Roth IRA accounts have zero balance. This way, you don't
pay taxes. This is called pro-rata rule.
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 f********1 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 自己研究了半天,问了broker,问了懂税务的人,还是没解决细节技术问题。版上大牛 : 赐教: : 学习心得+背景:目前有roth ira 帐户。但预计今年收入已经超出roth限制,不能再直 : 接 contribute roth ira,只能用non-deductable Traditional ira 然后convert到 : roth ira。 : 问题1: 可不可以开个2013年的Traditional ira帐户,我从自己口袋里掏5500放进 : Traditional ira, 然后马上全额转到2013年的roth ira帐户? : 问题2:convert的时候还要withhold federal and state tax吗? 放进Traditional : IRA的钱是我自己税后工资的钱,税都交过了,不应该再交了吧,不然就double tax了 : !?
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f********1 发帖数: 24 | 5 Thanks! fakeshawn, yirong, and olihuge. Sorry I don't have baozi for you
guys.
In summary,
1. I open a Tra ira account in 2013, purely new account, never open tra ira
account before.
2. I fund the account with $5500 from my own pocket, don't trade, wait for
several days. Then
3. I convert all $5500 to my Roth ira for 2013 contribution, DONOT withhold
any tax. No money in tra ira, no money pay to IRS
4. In 2014 since my tra ira has no money in it, I can fund it again and
convert to ROTH without any tax withhold.
5. Again and again once every year whenever the backdoor roth ira still
exists.
I don't violate the pro-rata rule, right?
Tra ira account doesn't differentiate non-deductible account and deductible
account. It's just a single account, right? When I fund it with non-
deductible money(money in my own pocket), the account is then called non-
deductible account.
Thanks,guys.
【在 f********1 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 自己研究了半天,问了broker,问了懂税务的人,还是没解决细节技术问题。版上大牛 : 赐教: : 学习心得+背景:目前有roth ira 帐户。但预计今年收入已经超出roth限制,不能再直 : 接 contribute roth ira,只能用non-deductable Traditional ira 然后convert到 : roth ira。 : 问题1: 可不可以开个2013年的Traditional ira帐户,我从自己口袋里掏5500放进 : Traditional ira, 然后马上全额转到2013年的roth ira帐户? : 问题2:convert的时候还要withhold federal and state tax吗? 放进Traditional : IRA的钱是我自己税后工资的钱,税都交过了,不应该再交了吧,不然就double tax了 : !?
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f*******n 发帖数: 12623 | 6
ira
withhold
Right.
When you convert it to Roth, it's not called a "contribution".
deductible
When you make a non-deductible contribution, that mount is added to your "
basis". You don't need to pay tax on your basis. However, if that account
grows, the additional money (earnings) is not part of your basis, so you
have to pay tax on it when withdrawing or converting, just like a deductible
contribution.
So when you fund it with non-deductible money, it will initially be
completely non-taxable. However, if it grows, part of it will become taxable
. That's why when doing the backdoor, we don't wait too long before
converting.
【在 f********1 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Thanks! fakeshawn, yirong, and olihuge. Sorry I don't have baozi for you : guys. : In summary, : 1. I open a Tra ira account in 2013, purely new account, never open tra ira : account before. : 2. I fund the account with $5500 from my own pocket, don't trade, wait for : several days. Then : 3. I convert all $5500 to my Roth ira for 2013 contribution, DONOT withhold : any tax. No money in tra ira, no money pay to IRS : 4. In 2014 since my tra ira has no money in it, I can fund it again and
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s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | 7 Exactly what I did every year for the past few years.
Except #2: no need to wait a few days. For example in Vanguard, once the
funds show up on the trad-IRA, you can immediately use it to buy into Roth (
do the conversion) at the interface, even though the funds haven't settled
yet.
I think this method is so common now most brokerages are very proactive in
implementing and advertising it. It shouldn't be called "back door" but
rather should be "front door" because Congress is encouraging people to
convert to get more tax revenue.
ira
withhold
【在 f********1 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Thanks! fakeshawn, yirong, and olihuge. Sorry I don't have baozi for you : guys. : In summary, : 1. I open a Tra ira account in 2013, purely new account, never open tra ira : account before. : 2. I fund the account with $5500 from my own pocket, don't trade, wait for : several days. Then : 3. I convert all $5500 to my Roth ira for 2013 contribution, DONOT withhold : any tax. No money in tra ira, no money pay to IRS : 4. In 2014 since my tra ira has no money in it, I can fund it again and
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d**k 发帖数: 606 | 8 zero balance in non-Roth IRA, including Rollover IRA? Also, does it require
zero balance in all my non-Roth IRA in all broker accounts, all just the sam
e broker with trandoitional IRA, which is being converted?
make
t
【在 o*****e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Before you contribute to a non-deductible IRA, and convert to Roth IRA, make : sure all your non-Roth IRA accounts have zero balance. This way, you don't : pay taxes. This is called pro-rata rule. : : ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
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n******n 发帖数: 12088 | 9 年经。你问的纯粹是基本问题,没看出有任何研究成果,也不是细节技术问题。
【在 f********1 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 自己研究了半天,问了broker,问了懂税务的人,还是没解决细节技术问题。版上大牛 : 赐教: : 学习心得+背景:目前有roth ira 帐户。但预计今年收入已经超出roth限制,不能再直 : 接 contribute roth ira,只能用non-deductable Traditional ira 然后convert到 : roth ira。 : 问题1: 可不可以开个2013年的Traditional ira帐户,我从自己口袋里掏5500放进 : Traditional ira, 然后马上全额转到2013年的roth ira帐户? : 问题2:convert的时候还要withhold federal and state tax吗? 放进Traditional : IRA的钱是我自己税后工资的钱,税都交过了,不应该再交了吧,不然就double tax了 : !?
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f*******n 发帖数: 12623 | 10 "Rollover IRA" is just a Traditional IRA. There's no difference. Just the
source of the money is different. Yes, it needs to be zero in all of your
accounts at all brokers.
require
sam
【在 d**k 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : zero balance in non-Roth IRA, including Rollover IRA? Also, does it require : zero balance in all my non-Roth IRA in all broker accounts, all just the sam : e broker with trandoitional IRA, which is being converted? : : make : t
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c*****v 发帖数: 839 | 11 请教大家几个问题
1.2013年4月15日前开户是不是可以算2012年的Contribution?
2.夫妻俩个人都工作是不是可以各开一个账户?
3.先开Tra IRA,再转Roth是不是基本上就是绕开了Roth的Income限制? |
y****g 发帖数: 285 | 12
可以,开的时候自己选2012 or 2013
各开各的
是的
【在 c*****v 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 请教大家几个问题 : 1.2013年4月15日前开户是不是可以算2012年的Contribution? : 2.夫妻俩个人都工作是不是可以各开一个账户? : 3.先开Tra IRA,再转Roth是不是基本上就是绕开了Roth的Income限制?
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c*****v 发帖数: 839 | 13 谢了,简直有点Too good to be true.
【在 y****g 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 可以,开的时候自己选2012 or 2013 : 各开各的 : 是的
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f*******n 发帖数: 12623 | 14 Yes, but there's more paperwork, and you have to make sure you don't already
have money in Traditional IRAs
【在 c*****v 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 谢了,简直有点Too good to be true.
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p**h 发帖数: 1105 | 15 这有啥Too good to be true? 最关键是你的investment能赚钱, 否则不过就是多个
途径loss money...
【在 c*****v 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 谢了,简直有点Too good to be true.
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f*******n 发帖数: 12623 | 16 Too good to be true是关于那个income limit其实你可以完全不管的
【在 p**h 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 这有啥Too good to be true? 最关键是你的investment能赚钱, 否则不过就是多个 : 途径loss money...
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d********n 发帖数: 1856 | 17 Bingo.
I have to clean up my trad IRA now. Painful process.
make
t
【在 o*****e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Before you contribute to a non-deductible IRA, and convert to Roth IRA, make : sure all your non-Roth IRA accounts have zero balance. This way, you don't : pay taxes. This is called pro-rata rule. : : ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
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c**l 发帖数: 159 | 18 记住file 8606 with your tax return. It will be confusing when you use
Turbotax to prepare taxes. But it will work out.
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 d********n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Bingo. : I have to clean up my trad IRA now. Painful process. : : make : t
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n******n 发帖数: 12088 | 19 有啥困惑的。turbotax都考虑了。
【在 c**l 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 记住file 8606 with your tax return. It will be confusing when you use : Turbotax to prepare taxes. But it will work out. : : ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
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c*****v 发帖数: 839 | 20 很多的TAX都是超过income limit就phase out.
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Too good to be true是关于那个income limit其实你可以完全不管的
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c**l 发帖数: 159 | 21 Here is a link for using Turbotax for backdoor Roth. If you can't get it
right, you can revisit during tax time.
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70144#p979532 |
c*********a 发帖数: 2265 | 22 是所有的trad ira都需要清空么?如是不同broker的帐号呢?
【在 d********n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Bingo. : I have to clean up my trad IRA now. Painful process. : : make : t
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f*******n 发帖数: 12623 | 23 所有的trad ira都需要清空。对IRS来说,所有的trad ira的钱都算在一起的,不管你
是怎么分帐户。
【在 c*********a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 是所有的trad ira都需要清空么?如是不同broker的帐号呢?
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a*******4 发帖数: 580 | 24 2012年的税表已经寄出去了。
如果现在开2012年的Tra IRA的话,还能抵税么?怎么弄呢?我土了,2012年都不知道
有Tra IRA这回事儿呀!
【在 c**l 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 记住file 8606 with your tax return. It will be confusing when you use : Turbotax to prepare taxes. But it will work out. : : ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
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f*******n 发帖数: 12623 | 25 还可以弄。你可以amend你的税表。但是要注意,要用Tra IRA来抵税要符合某些条件的
。好像如果你公司有401k的话,你要收入很低才行。
【在 a*******4 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 2012年的税表已经寄出去了。 : 如果现在开2012年的Tra IRA的话,还能抵税么?怎么弄呢?我土了,2012年都不知道 : 有Tra IRA这回事儿呀!
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a*******4 发帖数: 580 | 26 多谢了!公司确实有401K,但是W2上的收入比那个5w6低。真后悔早早的把税表就寄出
去了啊
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 还可以弄。你可以amend你的税表。但是要注意,要用Tra IRA来抵税要符合某些条件的 : 。好像如果你公司有401k的话,你要收入很低才行。
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S*****s 发帖数: 2290 | |
r*******n 发帖数: 1739 | 28 how to make the traditional IRA balance to zero? any suggestions?
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 所有的trad ira都需要清空。对IRS来说,所有的trad ira的钱都算在一起的,不管你 : 是怎么分帐户。
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g*****g 发帖数: 34805 | 29 Some 401K allows transfer from IRA, that's about the only way.
【在 r*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : how to make the traditional IRA balance to zero? any suggestions?
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r*******n 发帖数: 1739 | 30 如果把所有的traditional IRA都转成Roth,是不是就不用折腾转回401k的事了?
traditional转roth有金额限制吗?
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Some 401K allows transfer from IRA, that's about the only way.
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f*******n 发帖数: 12623 | 31 对啊。没有限制。但是你知道deductible traditional IRA转成Roth要交税的。不一定
是个好主意。
【在 r*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 如果把所有的traditional IRA都转成Roth,是不是就不用折腾转回401k的事了? : traditional转roth有金额限制吗?
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