S*********t
发帖数: 78 | 1 it seems better than GWT. |
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 2 GWT is new and ZK is more established. That means ZK has a much richer
collection of ready-to-go widgets than GWT.
【在 S*********t 的大作中提到】
: it seems better than GWT.
|
b******y
发帖数: 9224 | 3 seems interesting. At least looking at their demo, it is not bad.
But I still have a thing about Ajax. The web is build using connectionless
protocol such as http. I feel like the web needs a better protocol in order
to do more desktop like application.
Ajax seems to be a hack, as far as I could say. |
k***r
发帖数: 4260 | 4 看了半天也没看懂ZK十个啥东东。没有Javascript的Javascript Library?
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: GWT is new and ZK is more established. That means ZK has a much richer
: collection of ready-to-go widgets than GWT.
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 5 I think you have to get down to the earth on some of your thoughts
to be practical. http is designed to be connectionless, that's why
it's so performant, people dont' click a button every millisecond.
JS isn't the most elegant language, but it's naturally supported in
all browsers, that's a big plus over any other RIA alternatives.
order
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
: seems interesting. At least looking at their demo, it is not bad.
: But I still have a thing about Ajax. The web is build using connectionless
: protocol such as http. I feel like the web needs a better protocol in order
: to do more desktop like application.
: Ajax seems to be a hack, as far as I could say.
|
b******y
发帖数: 9224 | 6
That's good thinking, I totally agree.
Depends on the web application, if it is in-house web application, I would
be all for Ajax. If it is for the public website, I would stay away from
that as much as possible.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: I think you have to get down to the earth on some of your thoughts
: to be practical. http is designed to be connectionless, that's why
: it's so performant, people dont' click a button every millisecond.
: JS isn't the most elegant language, but it's naturally supported in
: all browsers, that's a big plus over any other RIA alternatives.
:
: order
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 7 Really? Almost every popular website uses some ajax now.
From simple "autocomplete", to full-fledged one like
gmail, yahoo mail, gmap
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
:
: That's good thinking, I totally agree.
: Depends on the web application, if it is in-house web application, I would
: be all for Ajax. If it is for the public website, I would stay away from
: that as much as possible.
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 8 I think your concerns are very legit. Actually we should always avoid
abusing AJAX.
The two best use cases of AJAX is: 1) Online Map (GoogleMap) and 2)
AutoCompletion.
The ideas such as a Web-based SpreadSheet that dynamically load data when
scrolling is...pretty dumb, at least under current HTTP.
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
:
: That's good thinking, I totally agree.
: Depends on the web application, if it is in-house web application, I would
: be all for Ajax. If it is for the public website, I would stay away from
: that as much as possible.
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 9 One thing I don't like ZK is that they make AJAX looks so simple, and even
many cheaply built sites such as 武侠小说 sites are full of crappy AJAX
pages that try to reload something on every mouseover. I really hate that.
As a result, ZK's look and feel is now always giving me a cheap feeling,
although it's not their fault:)
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Really? Almost every popular website uses some ajax now.
: From simple "autocomplete", to full-fledged one like
: gmail, yahoo mail, gmap
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 10 AJAX means to update only the portion of webpage neccesary.
We always do this in desktop application. A website using ajax
can be dumb, but it'll be as dumb if not dumber without ajax.
I can understand ajax being imporperly implemented, but hardly
abused.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: I think your concerns are very legit. Actually we should always avoid
: abusing AJAX.
: The two best use cases of AJAX is: 1) Online Map (GoogleMap) and 2)
: AutoCompletion.
: The ideas such as a Web-based SpreadSheet that dynamically load data when
: scrolling is...pretty dumb, at least under current HTTP.
|
|
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 11 That's because you haven't seen enough websites. AJAX Framework such as ZK
makes things easy and thus create the chance of abuse. For example, infobox
triggered by mouseover is one of the most common abuses. Because every time
it will load something from the server, it can easily become a disaster when
you have many elements on your webpages with this mouseover capability.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: AJAX means to update only the portion of webpage neccesary.
: We always do this in desktop application. A website using ajax
: can be dumb, but it'll be as dumb if not dumber without ajax.
: I can understand ajax being imporperly implemented, but hardly
: abused.
|
m******t
发帖数: 2416 | 12
Checkout flickriver.com, pretty cool.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: I think your concerns are very legit. Actually we should always avoid
: abusing AJAX.
: The two best use cases of AJAX is: 1) Online Map (GoogleMap) and 2)
: AutoCompletion.
: The ideas such as a Web-based SpreadSheet that dynamically load data when
: scrolling is...pretty dumb, at least under current HTTP.
|
t*******e
发帖数: 684 | 13 For developers, it boils down to the choice of an HTML centric development
approach or an Ajax centric approach. Conventional web frameworks (Struts,
JSF, Wicket, Webwork...) are all designed for HTML centric development
efforts. While GWT, Echo, ZK are Ajax centric.
In the sense that a web project begins with HTML design, conventional web
frameworks are probably better choices. |
k***r
发帖数: 4260 | |
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 15 这两个是因为本来的目的就是要INTEGRATE YUI JS LIB
ZK本身有跟好的GRID和SPREADSHEET COMPONENTS,
虽然我不赞成滥用AJAX, 但ZK的框架确实非常好, 基本上可以
完全用JAVA写网页, 非常SMART。
【在 k***r 的大作中提到】
: 这几天又看了一下zk。感觉它的components比较弱，结果还需要用external js
: library，比较麻烦，也有很大重复，比如这两个：
: http://www.zkoss.org/smalltalks/yuiextz-grid-1/yuiextz-grid-1.dsp
: http://www.zkoss.org/smalltalks/yuiextz-layout/
|
c*****t
发帖数: 1879 | 16 我觉得挺 stupid 的 design 。没事一下子把所有的图片放一个 page 上干嘛？
虽然图片不错。
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
:
: Checkout flickriver.com, pretty cool.
|
t*******e
发帖数: 684 | 17
That's the reason why IT companies need HTML designers.
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得挺 stupid 的 design 。没事一下子把所有的图片放一个 page 上干嘛？
: 虽然图片不错。
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 18 Agree, however, unlike other traditional frameworks. Wicket does have
pretty strong ajax support.
For other frameworks that wants to adapt some ajax components,
DWR may still be the best solution to date.
【在 t*******e 的大作中提到】
: For developers, it boils down to the choice of an HTML centric development
: approach or an Ajax centric approach. Conventional web frameworks (Struts,
: JSF, Wicket, Webwork...) are all designed for HTML centric development
: efforts. While GWT, Echo, ZK are Ajax centric.
: In the sense that a web project begins with HTML design, conventional web
: frameworks are probably better choices.
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 19 胖子是想用它证明AJAX，注意到图片都是动态LOAD的。但我还是认为是BAD EXAMPLE。
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得挺 stupid 的 design 。没事一下子把所有的图片放一个 page 上干嘛？
: 虽然图片不错。
|
k***r
发帖数: 4260 | 20 layout那个没有仔细看，不清楚为什么要用external layout，估计是ZK自己的Layout
没有那么灵活。Grid那个有side by side comparison。ZK自己的功能弱。其实如果这
个现象很普遍，还不如索性支持ExtJS好了，毕竟ExtJS或者YUI在界面上花很多时间，
应该做得好一些。ZK自己的东西差一点，还不如focus在后面。
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: 这两个是因为本来的目的就是要INTEGRATE YUI JS LIB
: ZK本身有跟好的GRID和SPREADSHEET COMPONENTS,
: 虽然我不赞成滥用AJAX, 但ZK的框架确实非常好, 基本上可以
: 完全用JAVA写网页, 非常SMART。
|
|
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 21 用YUI不是因为ZK自己的不好, 而是因为实际应用中确实会有需要
ZK的组件在客户段JS的编程功能确实不行, 但那是因为他本来就DISCOURAGE这个
相反你可以在SERVER端用JAVA实现一切。总的来说ZK的功能不差，有很多地方比YUI强
大的多。
Layout
【在 k***r 的大作中提到】
: layout那个没有仔细看，不清楚为什么要用external layout，估计是ZK自己的Layout
: 没有那么灵活。Grid那个有side by side comparison。ZK自己的功能弱。其实如果这
: 个现象很普遍，还不如索性支持ExtJS好了，毕竟ExtJS或者YUI在界面上花很多时间，
: 应该做得好一些。ZK自己的东西差一点，还不如focus在后面。
|
k***r
发帖数: 4260 | 22 嗯。了解。有机会试试看。不过感觉不够漂亮的UI多用于内网，或者RIA。大概做一般
性网站的机会少一些。 |
m******t
发帖数: 2416 | 23
Because it lets you browse pictures without any
technical interruptions - it loads the next batch
while you are enjoying the ones you are looking at.
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得挺 stupid 的 design 。没事一下子把所有的图片放一个 page 上干嘛？
: 虽然图片不错。
|
m******t
发帖数: 2416 | 24
I thought it was a good example of elegant ajax
design - nothing over the top, not showing off
any cool framework or skills, yet giving the user
a much more fluid experience, if you compare it
with the boring "drill down category tree and
keep clicking on Next" routine.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: 胖子是想用它证明AJAX，注意到图片都是动态LOAD的。但我还是认为是BAD EXAMPLE。
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 25 2nd that, my wife is a flickr fan, and she loves this website
instantly. scroll mouse is way easier than click button.
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
:
: I thought it was a good example of elegant ajax
: design - nothing over the top, not showing off
: any cool framework or skills, yet giving the user
: a much more fluid experience, if you compare it
: with the boring "drill down category tree and
: keep clicking on Next" routine.
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 26 Then why you don't see any Desktop UI like that?
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: 2nd that, my wife is a flickr fan, and she loves this website
: instantly. scroll mouse is way easier than click button.
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 27 Of course it does, try using ultraedit to open a very large file (>2GB)
it does something similar. And many editors cannot open file that big
at all.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: Then why you don't see any Desktop UI like that?
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 28 But here you are NOT editing a very large file. You have many pictures in
separate files, and making them appear to be stacking over a huge endless
pile just to show off AJAX is pointless, if not pathetic.
The point is, when you do need to access a large file, You have the needs.
When you are actually handling many small files, you fake the needs.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Of course it does, try using ultraedit to open a very large file (>2GB)
: it does something similar. And many editors cannot open file that big
: at all.
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 29 It's not about showing off AJAX, at all.
http://flickr.com/explore/interesting/2008/10/20/
http://flickriver.com/explore/interesting/24hours/
Which one is more convenient for browsing?
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: But here you are NOT editing a very large file. You have many pictures in
: separate files, and making them appear to be stacking over a huge endless
: pile just to show off AJAX is pointless, if not pathetic.
: The point is, when you do need to access a large file, You have the needs.
: When you are actually handling many small files, you fake the needs.
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 30 Off course the first one. The second one just assumes what users browse is a
gigantic piles of pictures . No order, no categories. Pagination is
actually a good thing. For instance, what if I want to see the 50th page?
Does it make sense to scroll over a 1000 useless pictures until I finally
get there?
Think about this: why Google never uses this to present its search results?
Because they don't know AJAX?
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It's not about showing off AJAX, at all.
: http://flickr.com/explore/interesting/2008/10/20/
: http://flickriver.com/explore/interesting/24hours/
: Which one is more convenient for browsing?
|
|
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 31 It's a personal taste I would say. For me, I'd like to lay back,
scroll mouse and seeing all the pictures until I get tired of it.
It's better than click next over and over again.
Your argument makes more sense when it's a thread, and you often
want to check the latest replies. Flickr just has no particular
order, or the ones up top are more "interesting". The same thing
can be said for google, what's the point to check a lower ranking
page before a higher one?
And if getting to a particular pag
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: Off course the first one. The second one just assumes what users browse is a
: gigantic piles of pictures . No order, no categories. Pagination is
: actually a good thing. For instance, what if I want to see the 50th page?
: Does it make sense to scroll over a 1000 useless pictures until I finally
: get there?
: Think about this: why Google never uses this to present its search results?
: Because they don't know AJAX?
|
m******t
发帖数: 2416 | 32
But the end user doesn't _care_ about files. It
makes it much easier for them to browse - just
scroll. And that's what counts at the end of the day.
The difference between "showing off" and "actually
useful" is, well, the latter is actually useful.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: But here you are NOT editing a very large file. You have many pictures in
: separate files, and making them appear to be stacking over a huge endless
: pile just to show off AJAX is pointless, if not pathetic.
: The point is, when you do need to access a large file, You have the needs.
: When you are actually handling many small files, you fake the needs.
|
m******t
发帖数: 2416 | 33
a
Nobody is saying we don't need pagination ever.
Nobody is saying the "keep loading them up" design
is universally superior to pagination, either.
People go to flickriver.com for a specific purpose -
just browse pictures. If they want to look for a particular
type or photographer, they'd go to the full-blown site.
So flickriver.com is designed with serving that
specific purpose in mind, and this "keep them coming"
UI serves that purpose very well, IMNSVHO.
?
Well, just because google isn't doi
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: Off course the first one. The second one just assumes what users browse is a
: gigantic piles of pictures . No order, no categories. Pagination is
: actually a good thing. For instance, what if I want to see the 50th page?
: Does it make sense to scroll over a 1000 useless pictures until I finally
: get there?
: Think about this: why Google never uses this to present its search results?
: Because they don't know AJAX?
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 34 I highly disagree. Only random users just want to scroll. That's why we have
all these menus, folders, and directory in computer UI in the first place.
Otherwise, why not make the entire desktop as a huge scrollable list?
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
:
: a
: Nobody is saying we don't need pagination ever.
: Nobody is saying the "keep loading them up" design
: is universally superior to pagination, either.
: People go to flickriver.com for a specific purpose -
: just browse pictures. If they want to look for a particular
: type or photographer, they'd go to the full-blown site.
: So flickriver.com is designed with serving that
: specific purpose in mind, and this "keep them coming"
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 35 Pagination is much less seen in desktop application.
Pagination is a common in web application due to
performance.
have
.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: I highly disagree. Only random users just want to scroll. That's why we have
: all these menus, folders, and directory in computer UI in the first place.
: Otherwise, why not make the entire desktop as a huge scrollable list?
|
m******t
发帖数: 2416 | 36
See my other reply from earlier. The site was designed
specifically to serve these random and casual users.
Put it in context. 8-)
.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: I highly disagree. Only random users just want to scroll. That's why we have
: all these menus, folders, and directory in computer UI in the first place.
: Otherwise, why not make the entire desktop as a huge scrollable list?
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 37 That's the same rule to AJAX. You only do it when necessary.
Just like in desktop application, you don't page your data unless it's
really big.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Pagination is much less seen in desktop application.
: Pagination is a common in web application due to
: performance.
:
: have
: .
|
