y***u
发帖数: 7039 | 1 粗略介绍老何看法：西方确实伪造了希腊
昨天本博转发了国外洋葱讽刺网的一篇文章，揭露西方统治势力曾经指使学者伪造希腊
历史，为希腊民主制度整容。
这里介绍一下一下何新对此问题的看法。老何说：这篇文章揭露的根本不够。西方近代
资本主义文明的根，本来就不是希腊的宗教文化而是犹太的宗教和金钱崇拜文化。这方
面可以看两个犹太学者韦伯（论证过新教的希伯来渊源）与波普（曾经大骂希腊文明）
的书。中国自由主义很膜拜这两个犹太自由主义学者，但是看来对他们的书没有认真地
读。
原生希腊人是黑头发黑眼睛的人种，与古埃及人（黄种人）接近。而与北欧那种黄头发
、蓝眼睛、满身长毛的哥特——日耳曼——盎格鲁撒克逊人根本不搭界。事实上，古希
腊人与古代罗马人都认为北欧、西欧那些白色人是没有进入文明的野蛮人——蛮族。而
就是这些希腊罗马人眼中的“蛮族”，在种族上才是现代西方多数欧美人的祖宗。
老何说，希腊有很多城邦，多数不实行城邦“民主”制度。雅典的城邦民主是保留氏族
血缘社会时代氏族民主的残余——不是什么先进制度。中国先夏时代——尧舜禹传说时
代也是实施这种氏族民主——“选贤与能”。这方面可以看《礼运》和《墨子》。
古代希腊真正的强国，不是雅典而是铁血集权之国斯巴达，一个君主国，斯巴达后来征
服了雅典 。
最后统一大希腊的是马其顿的国王菲利普，他的儿子就是征服者亚历山大。
所谓伯利克里的民主希腊，在很大程度上是一个毫无实证支持的意识形态的虚构神话。
休昔底德的《伯罗奔尼撒战争史》也经过文艺复兴学者和近代英国人的篡改，并不是流
传有序谱牒分明的原作。对中国典籍有疑古考证癖好的（胡适和顾派）中国学者，一向
对中国古代典籍吹毛求疵——为什么不认真考一考所谓荷马的史诗——充满神话；考一
考希罗多德、休昔底德的历史著作？
最有意思的是，希腊哲学的伟大三圣贤——苏格拉底、柏拉图、亚里士多德，都是彻头
彻尾反对雅典的氏族民主制度的。
苏格拉底因此，被雅典人用一人一票的投票表决而强迫饮下毒酒死去。
柏拉图主张建立理想国——由一个贤明的哲学国王治国。
亚里士多德的政治名言是：多头决策不好，民主不如独裁（这个话肯定让自由派发疯，
但亚氏确实说过类似的话）。
所以：认为“希腊精神代表民主精神”（顾准的说法），“民主政治代表先进政治制度
”的说法是完全不符合真实的希腊史的。中国学术界有必要摆脱西方近代输入的定见，
对此问题重新审视和思考。
此外，认为雅典民主制度代表希腊主流文明的说法，也不符合真实的希腊历史。
伪造希腊历史的人，最早是所谓文艺复兴时代的威尼斯、佛罗伦萨的城市独立共和国。
这些共和国是犹太银行家——中世纪的犹太共济会控制的。当时，他们需要制造一个古
代民主共和国的样板为他们的独立自治城市共和国找到历史根据。
后来，则是18世纪反对王政和教皇的英国人和20世纪冷战时代的西方学者。
老何说，我讲这些是有来自西方自己的充分史料和考古根据的。但先粗略谈谈，这并不
是考证，考证以后慢慢做。 | p******u
发帖数: 14642 | 2 希腊的神话都是文艺复兴时从阿拉伯那翻译回来再加油填醋扯出来的野史
【在 y***u 的大作中提到】
: 粗略介绍老何看法：西方确实伪造了希腊
: 昨天本博转发了国外洋葱讽刺网的一篇文章，揭露西方统治势力曾经指使学者伪造希腊
: 历史，为希腊民主制度整容。
: 这里介绍一下一下何新对此问题的看法。老何说：这篇文章揭露的根本不够。西方近代
: 资本主义文明的根，本来就不是希腊的宗教文化而是犹太的宗教和金钱崇拜文化。这方
: 面可以看两个犹太学者韦伯（论证过新教的希伯来渊源）与波普（曾经大骂希腊文明）
: 的书。中国自由主义很膜拜这两个犹太自由主义学者，但是看来对他们的书没有认真地
: 读。
: 原生希腊人是黑头发黑眼睛的人种，与古埃及人（黄种人）接近。而与北欧那种黄头发
: 、蓝眼睛、满身长毛的哥特——日耳曼——盎格鲁撒克逊人根本不搭界。事实上，古希
| B********4
发帖数: 7156 | 3 但现在的希腊人和土耳其人的世仇怎么解释？希腊不屑于和土耳其人为伍（虽然曾经在
奥斯曼帝国统治下好多年），底气就是自己是白人，有光辉的希腊文明。 | x****u
发帖数: 12955 | 4
Ancient Greek were not the Greek that was part of Ottoman empire.
【在 B********4 的大作中提到】
: 但现在的希腊人和土耳其人的世仇怎么解释？希腊不屑于和土耳其人为伍（虽然曾经在
: 奥斯曼帝国统治下好多年），底气就是自己是白人，有光辉的希腊文明。
| w******k
发帖数: 198 | 5
【在 y***u 的大作中提到】
: 粗略介绍老何看法：西方确实伪造了希腊
: 昨天本博转发了国外洋葱讽刺网的一篇文章，揭露西方统治势力曾经指使学者伪造希腊
: 历史，为希腊民主制度整容。
: 这里介绍一下一下何新对此问题的看法。老何说：这篇文章揭露的根本不够。西方近代
: 资本主义文明的根，本来就不是希腊的宗教文化而是犹太的宗教和金钱崇拜文化。这方
: 面可以看两个犹太学者韦伯（论证过新教的希伯来渊源）与波普（曾经大骂希腊文明）
: 的书。中国自由主义很膜拜这两个犹太自由主义学者，但是看来对他们的书没有认真地
: 读。
: 原生希腊人是黑头发黑眼睛的人种，与古埃及人（黄种人）接近。而与北欧那种黄头发
: 、蓝眼睛、满身长毛的哥特——日耳曼——盎格鲁撒克逊人根本不搭界。事实上，古希
| h*i
发帖数: 3446 | 6 Look carefully, people in these statues are middle eastern looking.
In fact, these statues were originally painted. It is technologically easy
to restore the color, then it would be obvious that these people were not
today's Western people.
But you don't see the color restored, do you?
Genetically, ancient Greek were J2 and G, whereas today's West are mostly R1b.
【在 w******k 的大作中提到】
| w******k
发帖数: 198 | 7 Give a link about your last statement.
It would be interesting to know the evidence.
Clearly, the sculptures say it all.
R1b.
【在 h*i 的大作中提到】
: Look carefully, people in these statues are middle eastern looking.
: In fact, these statues were originally painted. It is technologically easy
: to restore the color, then it would be obvious that these people were not
: today's Western people.
: But you don't see the color restored, do you?
: Genetically, ancient Greek were J2 and G, whereas today's West are mostly R1b.
| h*i
发帖数: 3446 | 8 There is a thing called google, key words: Y haplogroup.
As to the statues, when you go to Roman, check out the few color restored
statues, you will see clearly those were not the white people we know today.
【在 w******k 的大作中提到】
: Give a link about your last statement.
: It would be interesting to know the evidence.
: Clearly, the sculptures say it all.
:
: R1b.
| h*i
发帖数: 3446 | 9 Ancient Greeks were J2 people. In today's Greece, they account for 10% to 48
%, depending on the regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29
Hatred means nothing. Jews and Arabians hate each other, but they are
genetically similar.
【在 B********4 的大作中提到】
: 但现在的希腊人和土耳其人的世仇怎么解释？希腊不屑于和土耳其人为伍（虽然曾经在
: 奥斯曼帝国统治下好多年），底气就是自己是白人，有光辉的希腊文明。
| y***u
发帖数: 7039 | 10 interesting.
48
【在 h*i 的大作中提到】
: Ancient Greeks were J2 people. In today's Greece, they account for 10% to 48
: %, depending on the regions.
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29
: Hatred means nothing. Jews and Arabians hate each other, but they are
: genetically similar.
| | | g*********o
发帖数: 4653 | 11 说来说去不就是话语权嘛，
有了话语权，造谣的权利就可以写入西方法典，
成为受到保护的基本人权了
多么值得期待的事情啊 | w****2
发帖数: 12072 | 12 洋葱讽刺网, 是什么?
【在 y***u 的大作中提到】
: 粗略介绍老何看法：西方确实伪造了希腊
: 昨天本博转发了国外洋葱讽刺网的一篇文章，揭露西方统治势力曾经指使学者伪造希腊
: 历史，为希腊民主制度整容。
: 这里介绍一下一下何新对此问题的看法。老何说：这篇文章揭露的根本不够。西方近代
: 资本主义文明的根，本来就不是希腊的宗教文化而是犹太的宗教和金钱崇拜文化。这方
: 面可以看两个犹太学者韦伯（论证过新教的希伯来渊源）与波普（曾经大骂希腊文明）
: 的书。中国自由主义很膜拜这两个犹太自由主义学者，但是看来对他们的书没有认真地
: 读。
: 原生希腊人是黑头发黑眼睛的人种，与古埃及人（黄种人）接近。而与北欧那种黄头发
: 、蓝眼睛、满身长毛的哥特——日耳曼——盎格鲁撒克逊人根本不搭界。事实上，古希
| A****0
发帖数: 12393 | 13 搞笑电视台
你去hulu上找onion news
【在 w****2 的大作中提到】
: 洋葱讽刺网, 是什么?
| w******k
发帖数: 198 | 14 Very weak arguments.
Stop cheating yourself.
today.
【在 h*i 的大作中提到】
: There is a thing called google, key words: Y haplogroup.
: As to the statues, when you go to Roman, check out the few color restored
: statues, you will see clearly those were not the white people we know today.
| w******k
发帖数: 198 | 15 你这个连接非但不能说明“古希腊人种和现在的希腊民族 完全不一样”
恰好说明是有根本联系的。
而且这link上面也没说“古希腊”就是100%的J2。
而且看上面的图，密度最高在两河流域，和希腊还差了大老远。
根本不知所谓。
48
【在 h*i 的大作中提到】
: Ancient Greeks were J2 people. In today's Greece, they account for 10% to 48
: %, depending on the regions.
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29
: Hatred means nothing. Jews and Arabians hate each other, but they are
: genetically similar.
| w******k
发帖数: 198 | 16 这些人根本没文化
白种人一定是“哥特--日耳曼--anglo-saxon”吗
斯拉夫民族是什么？黄种人吗？
况且“哥特” “日耳曼” “安哥拉萨克逊” 这些民族差了大老远
而且他们是北欧的吗？
摆脱，文盲别出来show
【在 y***u 的大作中提到】
: 粗略介绍老何看法：西方确实伪造了希腊
: 昨天本博转发了国外洋葱讽刺网的一篇文章，揭露西方统治势力曾经指使学者伪造希腊
: 历史，为希腊民主制度整容。
: 这里介绍一下一下何新对此问题的看法。老何说：这篇文章揭露的根本不够。西方近代
: 资本主义文明的根，本来就不是希腊的宗教文化而是犹太的宗教和金钱崇拜文化。这方
: 面可以看两个犹太学者韦伯（论证过新教的希伯来渊源）与波普（曾经大骂希腊文明）
: 的书。中国自由主义很膜拜这两个犹太自由主义学者，但是看来对他们的书没有认真地
: 读。
: 原生希腊人是黑头发黑眼睛的人种，与古埃及人（黄种人）接近。而与北欧那种黄头发
: 、蓝眼睛、满身长毛的哥特——日耳曼——盎格鲁撒克逊人根本不搭界。事实上，古希
| y***u
发帖数: 7039 | 17 MAKE you BELIEVE - a civilization created in a few hours
Scholars apologize for attributing Western democracy to a make-believe
civilization
WASHINGTON—A group of leading historians held a press conference Monday at
the National Geographic Society to announce they had "entirely fabricated"
ancient Greece, a culture long thought to be the intellectual basis of
Western civilization.
The group acknowledged that the idea of a sophisticated, flourishing society
existing in Greece more than two millennia ago was a complete fiction
created by a team of some two dozen historians, anthropologists, and
classicists who worked nonstop between 1971 and 1974 to forge "Greek"
documents and artifacts.
"Honestly, we never meant for things to go this far," said Professor Gene
Haddlebury, who has offered to resign his position as chair of Hellenic
Studies at Georgetown University. "We were young and trying to advance our
careers, so we just started making things up: Homer, Aristotle, Socrates,
Hippocrates, the lever and fulcrum, rhetoric, ethics, all the different
kinds of columns—everything."
Enlarge Image Just one of the "ancient" artifacts dreamed up in a basement
in Somerville, MA. "Way more stuff than any one civilization could have come
up with, obviously," he added.
According to Haddlebury, the idea of inventing a wholly fraudulent ancient
culture came about when he and other scholars realized they had no idea what
had actually happened in Europe during the 800-year period before the
Christian era.
Frustrated by the gap in the record, and finding archaeologists to be "not
much help at all," they took the problem to colleagues who were then
scrambling to find a way to explain where things such as astronomy,
cartography, and democracy had come from.
Within hours the greatest and most influential civilization of all time was
born.
"One night someone made a joke about just taking all these ideas, lumping
them together, and saying the Greeks had done it all 2,000 years ago,"
Haddlebury said. "One thing led to another, and before you know it, we're
coming up with everything from the golden ratio to the Iliad."
"That was a bitch to write, by the way," he continued, referring to the epic
poem believed to have laid the foundation for the Western literary
tradition. "But it seemed to catch on."
Around the same time, a curator at the Smithsonian reportedly asked for
Haddlebury's help: The museum had received a sizeable donation to create an
exhibit on the ancient world but "really didn't have a whole lot to put in
there." The historians immediately set to work, hastily falsifying evidence
of a civilization that— complete with its own poets and philosophers, gods
and heroes—would eventually become the centerpiece of schoolbooks, college
educations, and the entire field of the humanities.
Emily Nguyen-Whiteman, one of the young academics who "pulled a month's
worth of all-nighters" working on the project, explained that the whole of
ancient Greek architecture was based on buildings in Washington, D.C.,
including a bank across the street from the coffee shop where they met to "
bat around ideas about mythology or whatever."
"We picked Greece because we figured nobody would ever go there to check it
out," Nguyen-Whiteman said. "Have you ever seen the place? It's a dump. It's
like an abandoned gravel pit infested with cats."
She added, "Inevitably, though, people started looking around for some of
this 'ancient' stuff, and next thing I know I'm stuck in Athens all summer
building a goddamn Parthenon just to cover our tracks."
Nguyen-Whiteman acknowledged she was also tasked with altering documents
ranging from early Bibles to the writings of Thomas Jefferson to reflect a "
Classical Greek" influence—a task that also included the creation, from
scratch, of a language based on modern Greek that could pass as its ancient
precursor.
Historians told reporters that some of the so-called Greek ideas were in
fact borrowed from the Romans, stripped to their fundamentals, and then
attributed to fictional Greek predecessors. But others they claimed as their
own.
"Geometry? That was all Kevin," said Haddlebury, referring to former
graduate student Kevin Davenport. "Man, that kid was on fire in those days.
They teach Davenportian geometry in high schools now, though of course they
call it Euclidean."
Sources confirmed that long hours and lack of sleep took their toll on
Davenport, and after the lukewarm reception of his work on homoeroticism in
Spartan military, he left the group.
In a statement expressing their "profound apologies" for misleading the
world on the subject of antiquity for almost 40 years, the historians
expressed hope that their work would survive on its own merits.
"It would be a shame to see humanity abandon achievements such as
heliocentrism and the plays of Aeschylus just because of their origin," the
statement read in part. "Moreover, we have some rather disappointing things
to tell you about the pyramids, the works of Leonardo da Vinci, penicillin,
the Internet, the scientific method, movies, and dogs." | y***u
发帖数: 7039 | 18 The idea of inventing a wholly fraudulent ancient culture came about when he
and other scholars realized they had no idea what had actually happened in
Europe during the 800-year period before the Christian era. | h*i
发帖数: 3446 | 19 When a civilization fails, not all people will be killed. Some people in the
lower class of the civilization will survive and become the minority of the
new culture.
However the old civilization is dead, because the culture of that
civilization is lost: the lower class people of any civilization is not the
holder of culture.
Ancient Greek culture was developed from culture originated from 两河, they
were the similar kind of people, there's no surprise there.
【在 w******k 的大作中提到】
: 你这个连接非但不能说明“古希腊人种和现在的希腊民族 完全不一样”
: 恰好说明是有根本联系的。
: 而且这link上面也没说“古希腊”就是100%的J2。
: 而且看上面的图，密度最高在两河流域，和希腊还差了大老远。
: 根本不知所谓。
:
: 48
| h*i
发帖数: 3446 | 20 Today's dominate people are not white people in term of the skin color, but are R1b people, i.e. 哥特--日耳曼--anglo-saxon.
The West in people's mind refers to countries dominated by these R1b people, not Russians, Jews, Arabians or anyone else. White people in the West do not care about those white skinned non-Western people. Just like Chinese do not care about yellow skinned Japanese. The deep reason is people intuitively know that culture and gene are strongly connected.
BTW, male gene haplogroup has nothing to do with skin color. The highest concentration of R1b is in a black tribe.
【在 w******k 的大作中提到】
: 这些人根本没文化
: 白种人一定是“哥特--日耳曼--anglo-saxon”吗
: 斯拉夫民族是什么？黄种人吗？
: 况且“哥特” “日耳曼” “安哥拉萨克逊” 这些民族差了大老远
: 而且他们是北欧的吗？
: 摆脱，文盲别出来show
| | | i*****g
发帖数: 11893 | 21 西方未必伪造古希腊，但确实古希腊罗马和他们没有关系，
他们在希腊罗马人眼中，是蛮族
那个古代文明中心在沿着地中海一圈
当然，也要承认这些英德美，继承了希腊，青出于蓝而胜于蓝
看看，中国人能否吞并他们的文明要素，也搞个青出于蓝 | y***u
发帖数: 7039 | 22 两河流域是西方文明中心， 这也是边缘文明试图占领中心的原因。
这句话有道理： The lower class people of any civilization is not the
holder of culture.
the
the
the
they
【在 h*i 的大作中提到】
: When a civilization fails, not all people will be killed. Some people in the
: lower class of the civilization will survive and become the minority of the
: new culture.
: However the old civilization is dead, because the culture of that
: civilization is lost: the lower class people of any civilization is not the
: holder of culture.
: Ancient Greek culture was developed from culture originated from 两河, they
: were the similar kind of people, there's no surprise there.
| b*******8
发帖数: 37364 | 23 伪造希腊夸大罗马，给自己祖宗戴高帽子。
吹嘘古埃及和玛雅，因为死的文明是最好的文明。天朝要被吹捧前提是灭亡，凭长城等
遗迹更是能吹到天顶星上去。 | s**u
发帖数: 1436 | 24 ft, theonion就是美国版的钓鱼站。
还真有人把它的东西当正经新闻啊。
at
"
society
【在 y***u 的大作中提到】
: MAKE you BELIEVE - a civilization created in a few hours
: Scholars apologize for attributing Western democracy to a make-believe
: civilization
: WASHINGTON—A group of leading historians held a press conference Monday at
: the National Geographic Society to announce they had "entirely fabricated"
: ancient Greece, a culture long thought to be the intellectual basis of
: Western civilization.
: The group acknowledged that the idea of a sophisticated, flourishing society
: existing in Greece more than two millennia ago was a complete fiction
: created by a team of some two dozen historians, anthropologists, and
| y***u
发帖数: 7039 | 25 这方面可以看两个犹太学者韦伯（论证过新教的希伯来渊源）与波普（曾经大骂希腊文
明）
的书。
【在 s**u 的大作中提到】
: ft, theonion就是美国版的钓鱼站。
: 还真有人把它的东西当正经新闻啊。
:
: at
: "
: society
| s**u
发帖数: 1436 | 26 whatever。 任何一个引用theonion的人都和相信张十迈的人一样没脑子。
【在 y***u 的大作中提到】
: 这方面可以看两个犹太学者韦伯（论证过新教的希伯来渊源）与波普（曾经大骂希腊文
: 明）
: 的书。
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