e*****s 发帖数: 7359 | 1 Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself.
There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.
John Adams, Letter, April 15, 1814 |
x******g 发帖数: 33885 | |
c**l 发帖数: 9003 | |
x******g 发帖数: 33885 | 4 John Adams看得很透彻啊。真是伟人!
【在 e*****s 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. : There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide. : John Adams, Letter, April 15, 1814
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w*********g 发帖数: 30882 | 5 民主制度搞不长久的原因就是人类自身的本性是好逸恶劳,贪婪自利。要是完全按照人
类自己的本性来,肯定是干活的越来越少,坐吃福利的人越来越多,最后导致社会根本
没法持续下去。
john adams这个也不是什么新东西,柏拉图早就说过民主注定失败。, |
w*********g 发帖数: 30882 | 6 柏拉图的航船比喻
Plato compares the state to an elaborate and expensive ship. A ship, to
accomplish a safe and successful journey, needs an expert navigator at the
helm, a captain who knows the capacities of the vessel, geography,
meteorology, water currents, navigational astronomy, supplies management
, and other related matters. An ignorant and untrained person at the helm
of a ship would endanger vessel, cargo, crew, and passengers alike.
Similarly, Plato suggests, the ship of state needs expert governors at the
helm, governors who are well informed about such things as law, economics
, sociology, military strategy, history, and other relevant subjects.
Ignorant and incompetent governors can be and have been disasters for
citizens and states.
柏拉图将国家比作一艘复杂而昂贵的航船。为了航行的成功和安全,掌舵的船长需要是
专业航海家。他必须通晓船只的性能,地理,气象,水流,天文,管理供应以及其它相
关的事务。由无知的外行人掌舵会危及船只、货物、船员和乘客。同样,柏拉图认为,
国家这艘航船也需要专业治理者掌舵,他们必须通晓法律、经济、社会、军事战略、历
史,以及其它的相关学问。无知无能的统治者将是公民和国家的灾难。历史上这的确发
生过。
Democratic self-government does not work, according to Plato, because
ordinary people have not learned how to run the ship of state. They are not
familiar enough with such things as economics, military strategy,
conditions in other countries, or the confusing intricacies of law and
ethics. They are also not inclined to acquire such knowledge. The effort and
self-discipline required for serious study is not something most people
enjoy. In their ignorance they tend to vote for politicians who beguile them
with appearances and nebulous talk, and they inevitably find themselves at
the mercy of administrations and conditions over which they have no control
because they do not understand what is happening around them. They are
guided by unreliable emotions more than by careful analysis, and they are
lured into adventurous wars and victimized by costly defeats that could have
been entirely avoided. This is how the Republic portrays politics in a
democracy:
对柏拉图而言,民主自治的方式无法工作,因为普通人没有学习过如何驾驶国家这艘大
船。他们对诸如经济、军事、国际政治或是法律和道德之间的盘根错节并不足够地熟悉
,也无意获得那些知识。严肃学习所需要的艰辛和自律并不是大多数人所愿意承受的。
出于无知,他们倾向于投票给那些靠外表和夸夸其谈来迷惑他们的政客。因为不清楚发
生在自己周围的事情,他们总是最终才发现落入自己无法控制的境地,不得不依靠管理
者的慈悲。他们不依靠缜密的分析,却更经常被不可靠的情绪左右。他们被诱惑去进行
冒险的战争,然后自尝那本来可以完全避免的代价昂贵的失败恶果。下面是《理想国》
所描述的在一个民主制度下的政治:
Imagine then a ship or a fleet in which there is a captain who is taller and
stronger than any of the crew, but who is a little deaf and has a similar
infirmity in sight, and whose knowledge of navigation is not much better.
The sailors are quarreling with one another about the steering—every one is
of the opinion that he has a right to steer, though he has never learned
the art of navigation … (4)
想像一艘航船或一个船队,有个比其他人都高大强壮的船长。可是他耳不聪目不明,对
航行所需的知识也并不比别人掌握得好很多。水手们对如何行船互相争吵 ﹣ 每个人都
觉得他有权掌舵,即使他从没学习过航行的技艺...[ 488b.]
The captain in this analogy is the owner of the ship or fleet; he represents
the demos, the majority of ordinary people. The sailors are the
politicians who compete to be at the helm. It had been their incompetence,
as well as that of the owner, that has brought Athens to ruin in the past:
船长在这个比喻中是航船或船队的主人; 他代表大众,普通人中的大多数。水手们是竞
相掌舵的政客们。正是他们和船主的无能,在过去给雅典带来毁灭:
[The sailors] throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit
the helm to them; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are
preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard, and
having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some
narcotic drug, they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free
with the stores, thus eating and drinking. They proceed on their voyage in
such a manner as can be expected of them. Him who is their partisan and
cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s
hands into their own whether by force or persuasion, they compliment with
the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man,
whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the good pilot must pay
attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever
else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the
command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other
people like it or not—the possibility of this union of authority with the
steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made
part of their calling. (5)
[水手们]围住船长,恳求他把舵交给他们;在任何时候,如果成功的是其他人,他们就
把获胜者杀死或者扔出船去。他们用美酒或迷药麻痹了高贵的船长,然后哗变并将船据
为己有,打开船舱随意大吃大喝。他们以自己喜好的方式继续航程。那些聪明地出谋划
策,协助他们从船长手中通过暴力或游说得到航船的“自己人”,被他们任命为水手、
领航员、或者海员,而其他人则被蔑称为废人。然而出色的水手如果真心想要获取掌管
一艘船的资格,他就必须具备有关时令季节、天空、星座和风向之类的专业知识。可惜
船上的人从没意识到必须让这样的水手掌舵,不管其他人是否喜欢。职权和能力相互匹
配并不是他们的想法。[488c.] |
a**e 发帖数: 8800 | 7 与纳税/服役挂钩的有资格选举。直到上个世纪60年代,美国都是这样的制度。
【在 c**l 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 那John Adams的正解是什么?
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S******8 发帖数: 24594 | |
w*********g 发帖数: 30882 | 9
破坏这个制度的人,应该是马丁路德金吧?
从那以后美国就每况愈下了。
【在 a**e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 与纳税/服役挂钩的有资格选举。直到上个世纪60年代,美国都是这样的制度。
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c**l 发帖数: 9003 | 10 这个是民主国家的大命题,向下走的大挑战
【在 a**e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 与纳税/服役挂钩的有资格选举。直到上个世纪60年代,美国都是这样的制度。
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b*******8 发帖数: 37364 | 11 从人类历史看,也是原始民主进入君主制度。其实100年前欧洲都还是君主制度占上风
,很多君主实权很大。这一波的民主浪潮,主要是因为有美帝这个化外蛮夷捣乱。但凡
到一大块新领土建国初期,往往都是原始民主制度,这毫不奇怪。但延续才200年,已
经看出种种扯蛋弊端,不过是人类历史局部的一点落后潮流泛起的小浪花而已,迅速就
要淹没在长河中。 |
b*******8 发帖数: 37364 | 12 按亚当斯的说法,只要是民主制度,早晚会被破坏
Cynic最高兴看到这种说法了
【在 w*********g 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 破坏这个制度的人,应该是马丁路德金吧? : 从那以后美国就每况愈下了。
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a**e 发帖数: 8800 | 13 是美国民众的短视。是金融资本需要通过债务/税收完成资本无限制增殖而做的努力。
是产业资本需要隐蔽的恢复大托拉斯的垄断而获得高额利润的要求。
首先在金融资本的控制的议员推动下,废除了私有财产不可侵犯的宪法原则,从法理上
使政府最为社会财产管理的代理人而具有了对社会财产自主处理并具有了利用法规/税
务制度无限占有私人财产的能力。完成了法理和经济上的准备。
然后金融资本控制的媒体/大学社会学界进行舆论诱导,扭曲国家政府的本质,让“不
赋予一个有国籍的人选举权是不公平的”成为政治正确的潮流。建立了下层的民意基础
而这时,大工业集团也希望更多占有市场,限制中小企业的发展。于是建立严格的繁琐
的商品法律,扩大政府对产品的直接控制成为产业资本的要求。实现这些,需要阔大政
府权力/架构和减低中产对政治的影响力。增加中产之外的选票成为最直接的要求。
另一方面,连续的战争使很多人,更是上流社会的人,恐惧当时的兵役制度,迫切需要
把选举权力和兵役脱钩。使得上层对将要到来的制度破坏视而不见或者乐见其成。
最后才是靠马丁领导人权运动恐吓普通民众:要么给我权力,要么我就要开始破坏,并
且法律不能惩罚我的破坏,因为我们人多。
可以说,这一切都是迫切需要控制政府,建立大政府的大财团推动的。马丁也不过是他
们的工具而已。
【在 w*********g 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 破坏这个制度的人,应该是马丁路德金吧? : 从那以后美国就每况愈下了。
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