m********A
发帖数: 1 | 1 【 以下文字转载自 USANews 讨论区 】
发信人: moshangUSA (), 信区: USANews
标 题: 一场在美国高校会延续十年的运动
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri Jan 28 11:06:46 2022, 美东)
捍卫美国高校言论自由
以下文字为访谈0-30分钟内容
00:05
我们邀请到一位杰出人士
today we have a very distinguished guest
00:08
吉姆·鲁特先生
Jim Rutt
00:10
我们将讨论言论自由问题
We will talk about freedom of speech
00:15
高校这方面却缺乏
US college campuses lack thereof
00:20
我们将有很棒讨论
We will have some good discussions I believe
00:22
那么首先在开始讨论前
So first of all without much do
00:25
莉迪亚请给新观众介绍一下你的平台、油管频道
Lydia can you just talk a little bit about your platform，YouTube channel
for our new viewers
00:35
大家新年好 Jim新年好
Happy New Year everybody Happy New Year Jim
00:41
我是创办者 办了陌上美国
I'm the founder of Moshang USA
00:43
2018年 我们先是基于微信办公号
So Moshang USA was founded in 2018. First we based on Wechat(equivalent to
FB in Chinese) as a public blog
00:51
我们成长很快近30万粉丝 3年实现的
We grew very fast close to 300k followers within 3-yr
00:56
遗憾的是 可能因为谈了很多个人法理和自由
Unfortunately probably we talked too much about the individual liberty and
freedom
01:03
去年9月被微信封杀
WeChat shut us down last Sept
01:19
作为审核受害者 言论自由无比珍贵
So as a victim of censorship freedom of speech is dear to our heart
01:26
我们要为言论自由而战
We want to reserve and fight for freedom speech
01:51
谢谢
Thank you Lydia
01:53
吉姆现在我来介绍一下您 欢迎补充
Jim let me try to introduce you, of course you can add
01:58
你目前是MIT言论自由联盟创始人之一
you are right now one of the founders of MIT free speech Alliance
02:06
我们后面会具体介绍MIT言论自由联盟
We will talk a lot about MIT Free Speech Alliance
02:11
你是MIT75级毕业生 我出生于那年
you graduated from MIT in 1975, that was the year when I was born
02:21
我2002年入学MIT
I went to MIT in 2002.
02:28
目前你在办Jim Rutt秀电台系列节目
so currently you're the host of host of Jim Roth Show podcast serials
02:35
该节目针对前沿的科技、面对未来的经济、政治和社会
I think the podcast examined cutting-edge thinking in science and technology
of future of our economic，political and social system
02:44
非常有意思
so it's quite interesting
02:46
你事业很成功
You had very impressive career
02:51
我从网上看到的
I noticed on the website
02:54
你曾是智库圣塔菲学院的主席 这是个智库机构
you were the past chairman of the Santa Fe Institute，a think tank
03:00
你做过网络解局公司的CEO 那是20年前
and you also were CEO of Network Solutions two decades ago
03:06
你是首位CTO 服务于汤普森·路透社
U were the first CTO I think the Chief Technology Officer for Thompson
Reuters
03:14
我猜想那时候
I guess at that time maybe
03:18
路透社的观点可能更多元
there were more diverse views at Reuters
03:24
相对现在而言 不过是我的猜想
than now. But that's kind of my speculation
03:30
你创立领导了多家高科技公司
And you founded and led several technology companies
03:37
贯穿你的职业人生
throughout your career
03:39
你还制作了一个奥斯卡奖电影
and you even produced the award-winning movie
03:42
并由此开发了一个流行的游戏
and created a popular mobile game
03:45
非常了不起
Very impression
03:48
有什么你办不到的事吗
What you can‘t do, Jim?
03:50
我什么都乐意常试
I do all kinds of things
03:52
我跟随自己的兴趣做事
I follow when I think interesting
03:57
有时会遇到大失败但有时又会带来极棒的结果
Sometime it leads to the cliff you are fall off sometime it leads to very
good places
04:05
总是如此起伏
always being that ways
04:06
我鼻子能感觉有趣的方向
I follow my nose my nose knows to find what's interesting
04:11
什么是前沿
near the cutting edge
04:13
补充与这个对话有关的一点
probably relevant to this conversation
04:15
我是参与构建网络世界
I was involved with building the online world
04:19
从最早开始的首批人
from the very earliest days
04:21
我曾为叫资源的一家公司工作 那是1980年
I went to work for a company called Source back 1980
04:27
那比你记事还早那时你才5岁
that's long before you even thought of. You were 5 years old
04:31
莉迪亚你那时也还不记事（我估计）
Lydia you weren't even thought of yet probably.
04:34
我是80年代出生的
I was born in 80s
04:37
就是那样
Yeah exactly
04:39
80年在资源公司
at the Source in 1980
04:42
我们已经有了今天网络的雏形
we had much of what's on the web today but
04:44
只是文本格式 一秒30字节
in text mode only 30 characters a second
04:48
上一小时就要10美金
$10 an hour
04:50
难以置信 不过当时世界上独有
believe it or not but there was nothing like an else on Earth
04:54
很快我们用户激增
quickly we had tens of thousands
04:58
从几万到几十万地指数增加
and hundreds of thousands of customers
05:00
我们有邮箱有聊天工具
and we had mail we had chat
05:01
有公告区所有早期的一切
we had bulletin boards we had the earliest things
05:05
类似社交媒体的所有雏形
that you might point to as a predecessor to social media
05:07
有新闻 股票信息 网购
we had newswires stock prices online shopping
05:10
我们做了第一次天主教在线忏悔聊天
We had the first Catholic confession done over and chat
05:14
还是经华盛顿大主教批准
with the approval of the Archbishop of Washington
05:17
我参与了网络世界最早构建
I was actually involved with the online world
05:23
至少是与用户有关的各部分
at least the consumer side of it
05:26
从最早的时候 我见证了网络科技的更新换代
since the very beginning I've seen all the iterations
05:31
现在的互联网是最新代了
What's the internet is only the most recent one
05:34
现在也不会是最终版本
probably not the last one
05:36
你是互联网最早先驱之一了
You are an pioneer in the internet technology
05:42
我记得最早亚马逊版本 也是文本
I remember I saw the Amazons first version was a text-only
05:48
您见证了网络从一个婴儿成为巨人 这个巨人影响着我们日常生活
Basically you saw the internet from a baby into a giant. Now the giant
affects our life in a daily basis
05:58
是的 我回想80年代 比如1981年可能一共就一万来人用户而不是科教届
Exactly I can think about 1980s By 1981 there were maybe a hundred thousands
humans consumers not academic
06:09
全球在使用网络的就这么多
online in the world
06:12
差不多就一万来人
right a hundred thousands
06:16
大部分是男的 大概96%男性
Most of them are males about 96% male
06:20
在那时候的情况就是如此
at the time and
06:22
大部分是关心技术的人之类的
mostly technical people Etc
06:25
需要很有钱因为当时使用网络太贵
had to be fairly affluent because it was very very expensive
06:29
就是你说的一个小种子
and that you say this tiny little seed
06:31
发展成我们生活的今日世界
in some ways grown up to be this world we live in today
06:37
非常有趣和充满让人好奇的事物
it's been very interesting and curious
06:39
也有很多起伏波折
but lots of twists and turns I will say
06:41
我记得互联网的早期发展MIT参与其中
I think the beginning of internet had connections to MIT right
06:46
来自军事项目的研究拨款
through some military research of funding
06:50
是的 最早叫做国防高精技术网
Yeah there was a DARPA net originally
06:53
鲍勃·卡恩和另外一个家伙（忘了名字）
Bob Kahn and who is the other dude(Vint Cerf)
06:58
2个研发了国防网络的人
2 guys were basically researchers created the thing
07:01
很聪明也没有计划民用化
It was clever never intended for commercial use
07:06
初始目的是开发一应急网络防备核战争
it was designed to be a survivable network in case of nuclear war
07:11
没有中央处理系统让互联网
because it had no Center that makes the internet
07:16
不同就是只要有部分比特字符存在
different is that if any bits of it survived
07:19
服务器会让它们合到一块
the routers can stitch themselves back together
07:22
事实上基于此建立民用互联网不是好选择
truth was not a good choice to build a commercial Network on
07:26
原因有多种
for a number of reasons but
07:28
不过因为其他原因 那我可以讲几小时了
for other reasons which I can talk about for hours
07:32
在1990年关键时间前后主导了走向
it did win during that critical period around 1990
07:35
那是个分叉路口发展时期
when there were still alternatives out there
07:38
至少通过那个时段我们拥有了互联网
and we can have internet at least through this era
07:44
也就是现在网络世界一切的基础
that's the platform on which all these other things are growing
07:47
包括莉迪亚现在用的各种平台
including Lydia's all her various platforms
07:52
利用网络世界的所有这些可供性的例子
That's an example of taking advantage of all these affordances
07:56
都是网络世界共给我们的可能
network world offers to us
07:58
了不起 我们确实找到合适的人
Great definitely we found the right person
08:01
你是最初几十个人之一
since you are among the first dozens of people
08:05
创立和主导了互联网发展
who are building and leading the internet
08:07
一旦我们遇到网络不公平
every unfair treatment from internet we got
08:10
我们就来找您要公道
we will come to you for help
08:13
我们是通过MIT FSA联系上的
Okay since we got connected through MIT Free Speech Alliance
08:18
能否跟我们更多介绍一下该组织(MFSA)
Could you tell us more about this organization
08:21
你在MIT FSA里做了什么工作
How did you get involved with MIT free speech Alliance
08:27
是的MIT言论自由联盟(MFSA)
yes MIT free speech Alliance
08:29
现在有几百成员
a group now of many hundreds of
08:33
都是MIT的校友学生教师科研人员
MIT alums student-faculty researchers and
08:37
还有MIT的朋友 都认同
friends of MIT affiliate with the idea of
08:39
我们需要更多的言论和观点自由
we need more free speech more viewpoint diversity
08:45
在MIT能有更多的质疑的权利
and free inquiry at MIT
08:47
不过这组织还很新
but it's very recent it only
08:49
是21年10月才成立的
started in late October 2021
08:53
我自己和两个MIT的朋友
myself and two friends of mine
08:57
通过邮件交流
from MIT were involved in an email exchange just
09:00
沟通各种事
things in general, right
09:02
突然就发生了艾伯特教授事件
suddenly the Dorian Abbott Affair happened
09:07
MIT取消邀请该著名地球物理家来演讲
MIT disinvited the distinguished geophysicist from giving a talk
09:14
内容关于系外行星大气
about exoplanet atmospheres the atmospheres of
09:17
绕我们以外的其他恒星行星
planets around other stars than our own
09:20
很学术专业的演讲
very technical talk and
09:23
但是他发表过一个评论文
but he had published an essay
09:28
他跟斯坦福教授伊万一起
he had another person(Prof. Ivan, Stanford) published an assay
09:31
在新闻周刊发评论
in Newsweek magazine
09:33
这是美国发行量很好的一款杂志
General circulation news magazine the United States
09:36
文章挑战了一大观点
where he had challenged the idea of
09:40
就是多元（结果）平等和包容
diversity equity and inclusion (DEI)
09:44
提出了取代方案叫做
and it proposed an alternative called
09:46
择优 公平 机会平等
Merit Fairness and Equality
09:48
这在我们当下
and as happens in our world today
09:52
常见现象发生了 一群推特暴民
all too often in my opinion a Twitter mob fromed
09:54
哇 竟有人反对
wow we get having anybody talking against
09:58
多元（结果）平等包容(DEI)
diversity equity & inclusion (DEI)
10:00
即使他们有个合理的取代方案
even they have a perfectly reasonable alternative proposal
10:03
我们也要找MIT
so we are going to demand MIT
10:07
取消讲座邀请哪怕他不任职MIT
disinvite this person even though he is not a MIT employee
10:10
不应该受MIT政策管制
had no impact got MIT policy
10:12
有没有严格的科学模型
Was there a strict scientific model
10:15
推特暴徒引发了一大堆网络恶攻
The twitter mob raised a whole bunch of stink
10:18
在我们看来非常愚蠢地
in our view very foolishly
10:21
MIT的领导层向这些网络暴民投降
MIT leadership succumbed to the Mob
10:25
取消邀请这个知名科学家
disinvited this distinguished scientist
10:28
来做学术讲座
from giving his talk and
10:30
我们三个人发了一圈邮件
so the three of us were emailing around
10:36
就MIT发生的一些事
about issues about MIT
10:38
有的关于DEI有的是其他事
anyway some around DEI some around other thing
10:42
我们觉得 真混蛋
and we said "Damn it!"
10:44
情况太不对
This is not right
10:47
我们来联系一些朋友看
So let's reach out to some of our friends and see if
10:49
是否能找到志同道合的
we can pull some people together
10:51
很快我们集合了几十个人
quickly we had a few dozen then
10:56
很快也找到全美校友联盟组织
we came across the Americans of the alumni free-speech Alliance
10:58
AFSA就是
AFSA turned out that
11:02
已经有其他美国五所高校
five other universities in United States
11:06
已经开始成立支持言论自由的组织
already established free speech organizations
11:10
包括康大 华盛顿李 普林斯顿
Cornell Washington and Lee Princeton
11:13
佛吉尼亚大学和戴维森大学
University of Virginia and Davison
11:16
就是这头5所
were the first five and
11:18
我们觉得这不错
then we said okay so
11:21
去了解了一下他们在做什么
we kind of look what they were doing and you know
11:23
就像如今很多创业者一样
like many entrepreneurs over there were over the years
11:27
我们偷学其中好经验为己所用
we just stole some good ideas and and added some of our own
11:31
做了大同小异的事情
and did something similar and something different
11:34
很快我们成立MIT FSA
quickly we sparked off MIT free speech Alliance
11:37
这是个合法独立组织
and it is a standard alone legal entity
11:42
非MIT官方组织
not officially affiliated with MIT
11:45
在申请成立501(c)3组织
It's now filed for 501(c)3 status
11:49
这样捐助人能获得免税
so we can actually accept today tax-deductible contributions
11:53
有了一些委员会成员
and has a number of committees that
11:57
负责运作不同事务项目
are in operation working on various projects
12:01
增加显着性和施压
increase the salience of and frankly pressure
12:07
MIT管理层保护言论自由
the administration about protecting Free Speech
12:12
自由质疑尤其增加校园视角多样
free inquiry and particularly Viewpoint diversity on campus
12:17
是的太重要了
Yeah that's very important
12:19
我们的网站是
and our website for anyone wants to check it out
12:24
MITfreespeech.org
12:27
是 那么以我所知
Yeah so as I know
12:31
不需要是MIT毕业的
you don't have to be a MIT graduate or hold a degree from MIT
12:35
你也可以加入我们
you can free to join us
12:37
注册为MFSA成员加入这个行动
and sign as a member to join this course, right
12:40
是的你将每周收到我们的新闻邮件
correct and you'll get our weekly email newsletter
12:46
更新近况和新活动
tell you what's going on pointing you to events
12:49
除了MIT言论自由联盟的进展还
MIT free-speech Alliance but also
12:53
有其他人就言论自由的行动
other people doing work in the Free Speech area
12:56
我们也很高兴找到很多盟友
that's been very gratifying to find so many allies
12:59
比如FIRE组织和非常学院的人
people like FIRE and heterodox Academy
13:04
和其他同仁们所以我们很快就
and other folks so we've become very rapidly part of
13:07
成了维护言论自由运动中一部分
the wider ecosystem around free speech free inquiry and viewpoint diversity
13:13
很好 说到这个 吉姆
Yeah talking about that Jim
13:16
我的一个问题就是你是否看到
I'm just wondering do you see this kind of
13:21
为争取言论自由的反击
fight back to protect Free Speech now
13:24
成为一个运动并获得阶段高潮
it's a movement getting some momentum
13:29
是的 Yeah
13:33
你提到了不同大学不同组织
You talk about different organizations different universities
13:36
都开始发声了
start to you know to make their invoice
13:39
这个行动发声的组织
you know this organization starts to make their voices heard
13:45
我们跟校友言论自由联盟
the Alumni Free Speech Association which we are now
13:47
几周前成为正式成员之一
formally a member as of a couple of weeks ago
13:50
他们告之已有超过百个校园组织
They tell us that they have over 100 University groups
13:54
他们相互合作提供帮助
who they're working with to help
13:57
我们提供一些
that we provide some
14:00
免费资料欢迎他们分享传播
materials and say hey feel free to distribute these
14:03
参照我们公司的规则
to people look at our corporate bylaws
14:06
委员会结构运作规则等
look at their committee structure etcetera
14:08
从五所开始 现在
there was five now
14:12
已经15所 希望
I believe there's 15 and hopefully
14:14
到夏天会超过100所
by the summer will be over 100
14:17
不同组织在不断成立
different groups that are formed up around
14:19
都是为同一理念创立在不同学校的组织
this mission at different university
14:21
所以可以肯定地说
so yeah it's it's certainly
14:22
是个蓬勃壮大的运动
A big growth area
14:27
我想这行动也许发起有些迟了
I think response probably late in the day
14:30
相较言论自由环境的衰退
actually to the decay of free speech
14:35
尤其是美国这些领头大学的校园言论自由
on America's leading University campuses
14:38
我以前也有所察觉
I will say I'm and I was sort of aware of it
14:40
有段时间了
for a while
14:42
不过当我真的去仔细了解后
but when I've actually dug in
14:44
发现校园(言论自由)真是差
and seen how bad it's gotten on campuses today
14:47
惊人糟糕
it's shocking
14:48
我觉得真让人要惊叫了
I mean it's like Wow
14:50
坦率说我们5年前就该行动
We frankly should have done this 5 years ago
14:54
不过亡羊补牢比不做好
But better later than no at all
14:56
是的十年前开始就好了
Right, better started 10 years ago
14:58
非常令人鼓舞
that's very encouraging to see it
15:03
这个行动 不过我理解
this movement but I understand
15:06
根据我们观察这需要些勇气
from our observation it takes some courage
15:10
人们才敢反对
for people to speak up against the
15:12
就是质疑顺从型思维
conformity type of thinking
15:20
因为教育圈的人估计自己事业前途
because people in academia care about their career
15:24
企业界也类似
so do people in business but what I see now
15:26
在许多不同的领域 比如
in many many different fronts like
15:31
教育 娱乐 媒体
academia entertainment media
15:35
企业 都存在
big corporations there is a
15:38
不断增加的
kind of increasing
15:42
意识统一程度
level of conformity you know
15:46
就是希望越多人想法一样
that they want everybody to think the same
15:49
支持同一套想法
support the same set of ideas
15:51
你是否同意这个观察
do you agree this is a right observation
15:58
并且从您的角度因为你
also from your perspective because you
16:01
毕业于70年代
graduated in the 70s
16:02
另一MFSA创办者Tom
I think you and the other founder Tom
16:06
提到那个时代有很多
mentioned a little bit at that time
16:08
校园充斥不同观点但是
there was a lot of different opinions on campus but
16:10
辩论更自由 请就此谈一下
there was more free debates can you talk about this
16:13
那个现象和你的观察
kind of phenomena also what did you see
16:15
发生了什么变化？ 噢大变样
what has changed? Oho completely
16:18
1971年
1971
16:23
就是我去MIT读大学的那年
When I showed up in MIT campus
16:25
那时可是言论极为自由的
it was a riot of free speech
16:28
你什么都可以说
you can say anything, right
16:30
毫无顾忌
and anything at all
16:32
别忘了那是美国告别老式风俗的阶段
Keep in mind this was the end of traditionalism in America
16:36
你知道 就讲1969年吧
You know say 1969
16:38
那时候女的还不允许
Women were not allowed to
16:41
在大学男生宿舍过夜
spend the night at men's college dorms
16:43
到了1971年
By 1971
16:45
见鬼了 开始吸大麻喝啤酒
WTH smoking weed drinking beers
16:49
抗议越战
protesting Vietnam War
16:53
支持越战
protesting... supporting the Vietnam War
16:55
你什么都可以讲
you can say anything
16:57
那是左右中都有深刻价值观的时代
it was a very deep value of the left right center particularly
17:02
尤其是精英大学
Particularly at elite universities
17:05
主张言论自由是价值观中最重要的
freedom of speech was the most important of all values
17:09
讽刺的是1964言论自由运动发起地伯克利
ironically enough the Berkeley Free Speech movement of 1964
17:16
真正发起地
was where this really got started
17:20
加州伯克利大学
Berkeley California Berkeley University
17:22
现在成了最思想统一者之一
now one of the most conformists
17:24
美国校园言论最压制地方
speech suppressing environment in America
17:30
但是校园思想言论大解放发源地
but the idea of radical free speech on college campuses
17:34
却确实从伯克利开始
really started there and
17:36
尽管两党当时相互厌恶对方
to go from this was by all parties who hated each other right
17:42
但是那时他们都同意言论自由
but they all agreed that Free Speech
17:45
不惜代价捍卫
must be protected at all costs
17:47
当时只有共产主义者不这么想
other than the Communists
17:49
只有一小撮是共产主义者
we had a small number of Communists
17:51
他们确实反言论自由
They were absolutely about suppressing Free Speech but
17:55
但是他们才不到1% They were you know less than 1%
17:57
人人也讨厌他们 and everybody hated them
17:59
反言论自由也让他们
and the fact that they were against Free Speech made them
18:03
也没有信誉
non-credible with everybody else
18:05
无论左右都厌恶共产主义者
Left and right they all hated the communists
18:07
但是现在惊人数量的
And now we are going to point out a staggering
18:12
思想统一
confirmative
18:15
最让我注意到的
the biggest eye-opener for me so far
18:17
当下到底发生什么的时候
in my learning about what's really going on
18:20
就是MIT的老师们
is that the MIT faculty
18:23
召开了一系列会议
had a series of meetings to discuss
18:27
艾伯特事件和相关所有事
the Abbott Affair and all the things came around
18:31
包括成立MIT言论自由联盟(MFSA) that including starting MIT FSA
18:35
一个150-160人参与的匿名调查
in a confidential poll of about 150 160
18:42
参与者都是MIT老师
MIT faculty members
18:44
超过一半的人
over half 50% plus
18:48
说每天
said on an everyday basis
18:51
他们都要
They felt like their ability to express themselves
18:54
谨言慎行
frankly and clear uninhibitedly was being suppressed
18:59
一半 在MIT这样
50% at MIT
19:01
真够惊人
that's staggering
19:03
当问及他们在当下社会环境
Then when they were asked in the current broader social environment
19:08
你觉得自己和同行受到多大程度的
what degree do believe yours and your colleagues ability
19:12
自由言论侵害
speak freely is under assault
19:15
结果答案几乎是80%
the number was almost 80%
19:18
这竟是MIT 一个本是智力尖子的地方
and this is at MIT the place of intellectual rigors, right
19:23
我本觉得
where I would have thought
19:24
该是坚守到最后的阵地
would have been the last place to fall for the stuff
19:27
但是就是这种证据
but here we are testimony under
19:30
匿名民调
private confidential vote
19:32
50%觉得每天被压制
50% feel they're being suppressed everyday
19:35
80%觉得整个社会环境
and 80% feel that the environment is generally
19:38
让人觉得受威胁和压制
threatening and suppressive
19:40
无法诚实完整地表达自己的想法
are people honestly and fully expressing themselves
19:44
这是惊人的
That's staggering
19:46
这让人好吃惊
It‘s surprised to me
19:53
因为MIT是STEM领域大牛校
Because MIT is very strong at STEM field
19:55
STEM人才是依靠
For STEM talents you are
19:58
事实数据说话的
based on facts and numbers, data
20:01
不是靠讲故事
not based on stories
20:03
如果我们的STEM精英大学
If our STEM elite universities
20:07
都被这么强的审核困扰
are been trapping in strong censorship
20:12
甚至是自我审核
even self censorship
20:13
那真是这个国家未来的大问题
That could be a huge problem in future of this country
20:17
世界末日
End of the world I mean
20:20
科学的首要
the essence of science
20:23
就是开放和强烈的质疑
is open and rigorous inquiry
20:25
是吧 我们做实验获取数据
right we go we do experiments we gather data
20:30
我们相互科学辩论
we argue with each other
20:31
你很少看到像两物理学家那样的争论
you never seen arguments quite like two physicists
20:34
他们争执不停
having an argument they go at each other right
20:37
他们互相挑战
they challenged each other
20:38
如果一些想法变成神圣就无法被挑战
but if some ideas become holy they can't be challenged
20:43
或者一些权威
or some authorities
20:46
一定要被引用因为
must be quoted because they
20:49
他们与某些政治派别
They aligned with some political factions
20:52
或者某些少数族裔一致
or some ethic minorities or something
20:55
那即使不是学术完全死亡
That’ll be if not quite the death
20:58
也是对科学的严重冲击
the very substantial damage to science
21:02
这将阻碍全人类
and that will hold back all of humanity
21:05
肯定会严重影响一些国家
It'll certainly hurt those countries
21:08
他们受影响最多
where they're most infected
21:10
科学是全球科研工作者的礼物
science is a gift of workers to the world, right
21:13
你创造科学事实和价值
you create scientific facts and value
21:16
世界上每个人都可以很快受益
everyone in the world can soon take advantage of that
21:20
如果你让小圈子改变科学
so agree that your sub optimizing science
21:22
等于欺骗人类前进的能力
you're cheating the human race out of its ability to move forward
21:26
这是非常非常糟糕的事
this is very very bad stuff
21:28
是的非常同意
Yeah I agree
21:30
特别感觉到当今的学生更少地
Especially we feel nowadays students are less
21:33
对辩论各方持开放心态
open to debates of all sides
21:36
觉得他们不少恐怕已被灌输
We feel they have probably already being fed up
21:40
就是被称为的洗脑
as so-called brainwashed
21:42
你觉得有改变学生的良药吗
Do you think there is any remedy to rescue those students?
21:47
让他们变回更支持言论自由
To make them back to support more free speech
21:50
绝对的 你说得对
Yup absolutely you are right
21:53
恐怕被影响最厉害的
probably the ones that been beaten down the most
21:57
就是学生了
are the students, right
21:59
虽然我们没具体相关统计
We don't have the data yet for
22:01
不过FIRE组织做了一些校园调查
FIRE is done some surveys on campus come up
22:04
结果惊人 在60-70%的区间
with staggering numbers in the 60 and 70% range
22:07
我们正在尝试在MIT进行一项研究
We're trying to commission a study on MIT campus
22:11
了解下学生的情况
see what the students are
22:13
有意思的是我们发现
interestingly what we can tell
22:17
学生的主要问题不是明着来审核
the real problem for students isn't so much active censorship
22:21
而是自我主动审核
It is self-censorship
22:23
一个我们在做的事情
and one of things we've now
22:27
就是发现竟然有很多自我审核
work on this and realize how much self-censorship
22:32
这是学生面对的最重要问题
most important issue picked for students
22:35
我们将提出一系列关于
we're going to be coming out with a whole series of
22:38
关于打破自我审查壁橱
ideas about the idea that break out of the self-censorship closet
22:43
对人类 对你自己负责
you know you owe it to humanity you owe it to yourself
22:46
我们实际上认为本科生
we actually think that the number of even undergraduates
22:51
完全接受审查
who fully are bought into this idea of censorship
22:54
和破坏观点多样性
and destroying viewpoint diversity
22:57
应该不到一半
is still less than half of
23:00
大多数人可能仍然反对
the majority are probably still oppose
23:02
不过他们被恐吓了如果能发声
But they just intimidated and if they will speak up
23:04
并获得其他人支持
and have other people will support them
23:06
我们认为有机会出现
we think there's a chance for them to be a
23:09
讲实话的潮流就会风起云涌
groundswell of fact
23:12
比如人们说我们要这些混蛋付出代价
what people say "we are not free to those A-hole
23:15
不能在推特上作威作福 对吧
on twitter say", right
23:17
我们有自己的观点
We have our views and
23:19
美国人我们有言论自由的权利
we are Americans we have the right to say it
23:21
我们有一些盟友会来帮助我们
We have some allies will come to our aid
23:25
也有人试图攻击我们
some people try to beat up on us
23:28
这是我们所看到的未来一大趋势
that's broad streak of what we‘ve seen going forward
23:34
我们已经有些在校学生
we already have some interest from some students
23:37
开始在校园发起相关组织
starting an on-campus organization
23:39
非常希望将大幅增加学生人数
Very hopeful that we will increase our number of students
23:43
尤其在未来六个月内
substantially in the coming six months
23:45
会有行动帮助那些
there‘ll be activities on campus to allow people
23:49
支持言论自由的聚到一起
who believe in free speech to come together
23:50
说他们想说
say what they want to say
23:52
并没有顾忌
and get away with it
23:54
我们还计划组织校园
we also are looking to arrange some on-campus
23:59
就争议话题展开辩论
debates on controversial issues
24:01
一些是围绕左右立场的
Some of them will be in the normal right left axis
24:07
一些则就其他方向的话题 some made in other axis
24:09
树立这样一种观念非常重要
We think it's very important to model the idea
24:12
即所有说话真诚
that all speakers who were speaking in good faith
24:15
使用良好论据
are using good argumentation
24:20
合乎逻辑的演讲者都有权
and speaking logically have the right to
24:22
make their case on campus
在校园里提出自己的观点
24:24
如果你不同意某人
If you disagree with somebody
24:26
伙计们那就反驳他们
disprove them my friends
24:28
而不是不让他们说话
don't say they cannot speak
24:30
我们的另一个项目
so that's another one of our projects
24:33
处于计划阶段
that's in the planning stages
24:36
安排和获得财务支持
is to schedule and support finance
24:39
校园的争议话题辩论
some controversial debates on campus
25:06
我出生在文革末期
I was born at the end of the Culture Revolution
25:11
25:17
25:23
so I could see really from our perspective perspective
25:25
你知道如果某些事情不能进行辩论
you know if something cannot be debated
25:29
国家可以往很糟糕方向发展
the country can go into very bad direction
25:33
我现在的理论是
I think my theory now is
25:37
美国很多年轻人没经历过
in this country many young people they haven't experienced
25:41
他们没真吃过压制的苦头
much hardship they haven't been really suppressed by anything
25:47
但他们有点像……说得不好听点
but they kind of like... To me use a harsh word
25:50
空虚 他们试图
a little bit 'empty' you know they try to
25:52
坚持他们觉得高尚的东西
hold on to something they think really noble
25:54
他们觉得一些说法比另一些优等
To they some speech is better than others
25:58
于是他们想
They think they want to, you know
26:01
镇压“坏的”言论
suppress the bad speech
26:04
但我不认为他们真有智慧
but I don't think they really have the wisdom
26:08
裁决对错
to judge what is good what is bad
26:10
什么是好的需要由
what is good has to be decided by
26:13
由激烈辩论来决定
as you said through vigorous debate
26:14
要倾听所有立场方
to hear all the sides
26:16
现在我觉得问题是
right now I feel the problem is
26:19
有些人有言论自由但不是
there is free speech for some people but not for
26:22
有某些观点的其他人
others if you have certain point of views
26:25
这真的是个问题
That's really a problem
26:28
是的 我认为是你说的那样
Yeah I do think that some of this is that you say
26:32
美国我们有言论自由
We've had free speech in America since
26:34
1971年是肯定言论自由了
since 1971 for sure but
26:39
至少在 1964 年开始起
at least starting to roll by 1964
26:41
在那之前我们有名义上的言论自由
We had nominal Free Speech before that
26:44
但是有很多非正式的审查
but there was a lot of informal censorship going on
26:46
在不同方面上进行
in different directions, right
26:49
不过过去50年里
But for last 50 years
26:51
我们越拥有真的言论自由
and more we've had true free speech
26:53
不幸的是很多人
and so unfortunately a lot of folks
26:56
不明白这多稀有和宝贵
don't understand how rare and valuable that is
26:59
尤其从历史角度
in the history of the world
27:00
在人类历史上没有多少次
there haven't been very many times in human history
27:04
你可以真实说出你的想法
were you could literally say what you thought
27:06
而不担心得罪国王或者教会
you didn't worry about offending a king or a church
27:11
一个地主或一个军阀
or a landlord or a warlord
27:15
看一下人类历史完全
We look at human history completely covered with
27:19
被各种权力所笼罩
various authorities of different sorts
27:22
各种试图要求一致性
that are trying to demand conformity
27:23
统一思想 出现这种泡沫
in thinking and this bubble
27:27
过去50或60年来在西方出现的
we've had in the West for the last fifty or sixty years
27:29
在人类历史上是非常不寻常的
is remarkably unusual in human history
27:34
非常有价值
remarkably valuable
27:36
不巧是人们不记得历史
Unfortunate people don't remember the the previous period
27:40
或者没有真正经历过
or don't have experience with
27:43
我与人交谈发现数量惊人的
Talk to so many people I found an amazing number particularly
27:46
尤其是来自中国、古巴、委内瑞拉
people from China or Cuba or Venezuela
27:50
波兰或俄罗斯的 or
Poland or Russia
27:52
经历过极权主义的
who actually experienced totalitarianism
27:55
他们是言论自由的坚定支持者
They are stronger supporters of free speech
27:59
比任何现在美国人都懂 因为他们知道
than any current American coz they know
28:02
没有言论自由是什么感觉
what is like to not have free speech
28:05
太对了 我们是审查机制受害者
Exactly I mean we are the victim of censorship
28:09
即使现在我们仍生活在虚拟边境小镇
even now we still live in a virtual border town
28:13
我们必须面对那些
we have to face those people who
28:16
suppress our speech
压制我们说话的人
28:18
在美华人非常难
It's very difficult for Chinese Americans living in the US
28:22
充分表达我们的想法
to fully express all what we want to say
28:26
觉得美国孩子们
I think America's kids
28:29
需要明白真正集权主义
need to understand that the real authoritarianism
28:32
比他们想象的可怕多了
is much stronger than what they thought
28:34
他们中一些把稻草人当敌人
Some of them just use a strawman as enemy
28:39
他们没有跟真独裁势力交手经验
They do not have experiences with a real strong enemy
28:43
如果我们说多了话
Any if we say something too much
28:47
可能会危及自己和在中国家人的安全
It could danger our own safety and our family in China
28:51
这是非常不同的情况
That's very different situation
28:55
我只希望那些理想化的孩子能理解
I just hope those very ideological kids can understand that
28:58
然后他们会珍惜美国
Then they will appreciate America
29:00
言论自由对这个国家是珍贵礼物
how freedom of speech is such a gift to the country
29:04
这就是为什么我喜欢跟移民交流
That's why I love reaching out to immigrants
29:08
进入美国是这项工作的一部分
enter the United States as part of this work
29:10
因为他们可以从真实经历中证明
cause they can testify from real experience
29:13
土生美国人反而不能
that us Americans really can't
29:16
我们有理论想法
we have our theories we have our ideas
29:18
但是你们真感受过压到脸上的靴子
but y'all actually felt the boot on your face
29:21
你们切实感受到不同
you can speak to just how different it is
29:25
住在一个不能随便说话的地方
to live in a place where you can't speak
29:28
你们在中国有家人
even though as you said you have family in China
29:30
他们仍然可以以此限制你们
They still string upon you
29:31
但依然不同
but not in the same way that
29:40
是的 在失去前珍惜你的权利
Yeah cherish your right before you lose it
29:43
希望不要失去
Hope don't loss it
29:46
另外我提到的事情是
The other thing as I mention
29:49
70年代信共产主义的是很少的
there are a fewer communists back there in 1970s
29:51
现在多多了
there are more now
29:53
他们存在于高校
They are imbedded in the universities
29:55
可能3-5%的美国人
Probably 3-5% Americans may
30:01
青睐马克思主义
look favorably upon Marxism
30:05
而在美国人文系
In American humanity department
30:08
可能一半都是马克思主义者
it may be half
30:10
在精英大学的英语系
In the English Dept at elite universities
30:12
估计有50%的自称马克思主义者
maybe 50% of people call themselves Marxists
30:15
他们笑称这些是休闲椅罢工马克思主义者
what do they call the lounge chair Marxist strike
30:20
他们是那些读书 they are the ones who read the books
30:23
读报自称马克思主义的人
read the journals and pronounce them Marxism
30:25
不过他们是在自由国家 But they are in a free country
30:28
如果他们实际在一个马克思主义国家
if they were actually in a Marxist country
30:30
他们可能是首先被关集中营的
they may be the first ones to be thrown in the camps
30:33
但不巧的是确实有大量马克思主义意识形态
but there is unfortunately a significant amount of Marxist ideology
30:40
是部分压制言论自由的背后成因
behind some of the suppression of free speech
30:44
像70年代只是一小部分人
just as in 1970 the small percentage of
30:46
马克思主义者想压制言论自由
who wanted suppress Free Speech were mostly Marxists
30:50
今天绝不是全部
by no means all today
30:52
我不是想说美国所有
so I'm not trying to say that all people who
30:54
反言论自由的
oppose to free speech in America
30:56
都是马克思主义者
are Marxists
30:57
但是很多意识形态上的支持
but many of the ideological support
31:01
这个范围的事尤其是所谓的警醒领域
for things in this area particularly the so-called woke area
31:05
完全来自法兰克福学派
comes from the Frankfurt School
31:08
这本质上是德国版马克思主义
which is essentially a German form of Marxism
31:13
它及其衍生理论
that is and in its descendants
31:16
有很强的痕迹
have significant footprint
31:18
尤其对人文和社会科学
Particularly in humanities and social science departments
31:21
美国高校这些相关院系
in the US higher education
31:24
是的 这些人文学科院系
Yeah those you know humanity departments
31:31
在我看来他们就像一个说法“进步主义”
they are in my opinion like we say use the term "progressive"
31:36
我们被要求学马克思主义
we have to learn Marxism
31:40
当我在中国上中学时候
in China when I was in middle school
(字幕翻译未完待续)
有条件上的请去支持一下陌上YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/c/MOSHANGUSA |
|
