q*n 发帖数: 1203 | 1 觉得这个版的语言高手较多。
最近经常在考虑怎样学习再英语的问题。觉得大部份人在来美国之后就没有系统的学习英
文了,而是想通过多听说的方法提高。但我越来越觉得还是要象中学大学一样,精读文章
,甚至也许要背诵一些东西才能有本质的变化。
我现在的英文水平在中国留学生中应是不错的了,能比较有效的交流,看书和电视都是比
较sophisticated类型,nytimes, charle rose show, etc. 但是说的话还是简单句式为
多,看得懂得gre词也一般说不出来。 有时特别恨这点,觉得sounds not like an
intellectual. 自然发音也有些毛病很是顽固。
请问如何提高? Suggestions, especially personal experiences are highly
appreciated. | c********h 发帖数: 19 | 2 你试试背诵吧要不.我背了些尼采觉得有收获.我决的说出来的话正点,要比说出来的话
sophisticated, sounds like intellectual要难,但是很tricky的一件事是,你要是把
从句用的特别正点,就显得很sohphisticated.
lingwai你唱唱歌试试练发音吧,那些慢歌拉长音的,能把平时说话模糊的声音印象
唱的很清楚.发音就是两见事:一个是要听清楚,一个是要说清楚.要练说的时候肌肉的力量
和灵活性是个大问题.平时注意把双元音发的完全可以练习肌肉力量,练习大小口形快速变换
可以提高灵活性.
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 觉得这个版的语言高手较多。 : 最近经常在考虑怎样学习再英语的问题。觉得大部份人在来美国之后就没有系统的学习英 : 文了,而是想通过多听说的方法提高。但我越来越觉得还是要象中学大学一样,精读文章 : ,甚至也许要背诵一些东西才能有本质的变化。 : 我现在的英文水平在中国留学生中应是不错的了,能比较有效的交流,看书和电视都是比 : 较sophisticated类型,nytimes, charle rose show, etc. 但是说的话还是简单句式为 : 多,看得懂得gre词也一般说不出来。 有时特别恨这点,觉得sounds not like an : intellectual. 自然发音也有些毛病很是顽固。 : 请问如何提高? Suggestions, especially personal experiences are highly : appreciated.
| q*n 发帖数: 1203 | 3 多谢指点。
reciting nietzsche? interesting idea.
对,其实我当然是想说出来的话正点了,并不想很文绉绉的,只是想用词更精确和有一定
变化,大概象受过良好本科教育的美国孩子那样就很好了。从句是有那个作用的。
除了尼采,还有什么建议吗?他不是英国人呢。
量
变换
非常好的主意。具体怎么练? 就唱一般的流行歌曲?
双元音说的太快绝对是很多人的毛病,我也是。
其实主要问题我也明白,就是不知道怎么解决。到我们这个已经在国外学习的程度后,再
用心琢磨英语的气氛反而没有了。
习英
文章
是比
式为
【在 c********h 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 你试试背诵吧要不.我背了些尼采觉得有收获.我决的说出来的话正点,要比说出来的话 : sophisticated, sounds like intellectual要难,但是很tricky的一件事是,你要是把 : 从句用的特别正点,就显得很sohphisticated. : lingwai你唱唱歌试试练发音吧,那些慢歌拉长音的,能把平时说话模糊的声音印象 : 唱的很清楚.发音就是两见事:一个是要听清楚,一个是要说清楚.要练说的时候肌肉的力量 : 和灵活性是个大问题.平时注意把双元音发的完全可以练习肌肉力量,练习大小口形快速变换 : 可以提高灵活性.
| c********h 发帖数: 19 | 4 不要担心!那个kauffman翻译的很正点的.我也不知是那尼采写的好还是考夫人翻的好.
谩在 qun (本命年~salvation) 的大作中提到: 】
挑点拉长音的,什么时候你跟人家唱成一样了你就set leh.
要解决这个问题要分三不走,第一,说英语不好听的中国人有两种,一是不好意思说的好听,
如果你是这样那就没办法了.二是好意思往好里说却说不好,那就有救.有救的里面又分了,
也分两种,一种是听不清楚的,类似听音乐五音不全,也没救了,剩下听的真切说的含糊的,
可以开始练习了:
首先,不要把发音跟口语一块练,要是练习发音时还得想要说些什么,对于初恋的人肯定就
应付不来了.然后,不要想快,以很慢很慢很慢的速度把那些chang音发长了,短音发短了,
舌头改伸身该卷卷.等这个练好了,zai变快就setleh. 我说的先后可不是说几年几天的,
是说以一个句子为单位的. | c********h 发帖数: 19 | 5 我想起来了,要不你看dawson's creek吧,他们说话挺文揪揪,而且还是大学生赫赫.
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 觉得这个版的语言高手较多。 : 最近经常在考虑怎样学习再英语的问题。觉得大部份人在来美国之后就没有系统的学习英 : 文了,而是想通过多听说的方法提高。但我越来越觉得还是要象中学大学一样,精读文章 : ,甚至也许要背诵一些东西才能有本质的变化。 : 我现在的英文水平在中国留学生中应是不错的了,能比较有效的交流,看书和电视都是比 : 较sophisticated类型,nytimes, charle rose show, etc. 但是说的话还是简单句式为 : 多,看得懂得gre词也一般说不出来。 有时特别恨这点,觉得sounds not like an : intellectual. 自然发音也有些毛病很是顽固。 : 请问如何提高? Suggestions, especially personal experiences are highly : appreciated.
| w******s 发帖数: 241 | 6 不错不错,很好的建议。其实说实话,我说中文有时候
也说得不是很清楚,吞音比较严重。现在已经开始刻意的
改正。请问还有什么好的建议能帮助我系统的练习发音呢?
多谢指点!
【在 c********h 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 你试试背诵吧要不.我背了些尼采觉得有收获.我决的说出来的话正点,要比说出来的话 : sophisticated, sounds like intellectual要难,但是很tricky的一件事是,你要是把 : 从句用的特别正点,就显得很sohphisticated. : lingwai你唱唱歌试试练发音吧,那些慢歌拉长音的,能把平时说话模糊的声音印象 : 唱的很清楚.发音就是两见事:一个是要听清楚,一个是要说清楚.要练说的时候肌肉的力量 : 和灵活性是个大问题.平时注意把双元音发的完全可以练习肌肉力量,练习大小口形快速变换 : 可以提高灵活性.
| t*******n 发帖数: 4445 | 7
英
章
比
为
你一说想起来了,Charlie Rose 的嘉宾,时不时有英语南腔北调口音巨重的,却不妨碍
人家sound cultured and intellectual。
这些人的enunciation 和vocabulary是不是可供参考。
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 觉得这个版的语言高手较多。 : 最近经常在考虑怎样学习再英语的问题。觉得大部份人在来美国之后就没有系统的学习英 : 文了,而是想通过多听说的方法提高。但我越来越觉得还是要象中学大学一样,精读文章 : ,甚至也许要背诵一些东西才能有本质的变化。 : 我现在的英文水平在中国留学生中应是不错的了,能比较有效的交流,看书和电视都是比 : 较sophisticated类型,nytimes, charle rose show, etc. 但是说的话还是简单句式为 : 多,看得懂得gre词也一般说不出来。 有时特别恨这点,觉得sounds not like an : intellectual. 自然发音也有些毛病很是顽固。 : 请问如何提高? Suggestions, especially personal experiences are highly : appreciated.
| b*s 发帖数: 82482 | 8 好些欧洲大牛在美国就是不改口音,印度大牛也一样。我们当然也不要改了。别人听懂
就行。演员除外,不知Harrison Ford到哪学来一口俄国腔。
【在 t*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 英 : 章 : 比 : 为 : 你一说想起来了,Charlie Rose 的嘉宾,时不时有英语南腔北调口音巨重的,却不妨碍 : 人家sound cultured and intellectual。 : 这些人的enunciation 和vocabulary是不是可供参考。
| b*s 发帖数: 82482 | 9 听说赵元任说哪的话都像,也是大牛。
【在 b*s 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 好些欧洲大牛在美国就是不改口音,印度大牛也一样。我们当然也不要改了。别人听懂 : 就行。演员除外,不知Harrison Ford到哪学来一口俄国腔。
| q*n 发帖数: 1203 | 10 hehe, 说实话,我观察charlie rose里的中东人说话口音都太重,整体语言魅力都不高。
不过我看见这些作家,艺术家,政客口若悬河地挥洒那些长句子,羡慕地口水都要掉下来
了。有时跟着说一说,但不知道收获几何。
感觉听懂和能模仿之间的差据还是太大。
碍 | | | b*s 发帖数: 82482 | 11 蒋夫人据说口音很好听,有南方贵族气,迷倒国会和老罗。
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : hehe, 说实话,我观察charlie rose里的中东人说话口音都太重,整体语言魅力都不高。 : 不过我看见这些作家,艺术家,政客口若悬河地挥洒那些长句子,羡慕地口水都要掉下来 : 了。有时跟着说一说,但不知道收获几何。 : 感觉听懂和能模仿之间的差据还是太大。 : 碍
| t*******n 发帖数: 4445 | 12
。
来
Hmm, in speaking in English do you
1. Compose sentences directly in English, without worrying much about the
grammar, or
2. Compose sentences directly in English, consciously thinking about the
grammar, or
3. Think in Chinese and then translate the whole thing?
妨
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : hehe, 说实话,我观察charlie rose里的中东人说话口音都太重,整体语言魅力都不高。 : 不过我看见这些作家,艺术家,政客口若悬河地挥洒那些长句子,羡慕地口水都要掉下来 : 了。有时跟着说一说,但不知道收获几何。 : 感觉听懂和能模仿之间的差据还是太大。 : 碍
| q*n 发帖数: 1203 | 13
1!! I am not thinking about grammar that much since high school.
So I suohld think the structure first ?
【在 t*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 。 : 来 : Hmm, in speaking in English do you : 1. Compose sentences directly in English, without worrying much about the : grammar, or : 2. Compose sentences directly in English, consciously thinking about the : grammar, or : 3. Think in Chinese and then translate the whole thing? : 妨
| a*******n 发帖数: 3 | 14 Stage 2. Sometimes I realize the sentence is wrong and say it again,
corrected.
【在 t*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 。 : 来 : Hmm, in speaking in English do you : 1. Compose sentences directly in English, without worrying much about the : grammar, or : 2. Compose sentences directly in English, consciously thinking about the : grammar, or : 3. Think in Chinese and then translate the whole thing? : 妨
| r*******w 发帖数: 121 | 15 one...
my spoken grammar is so bad
actually i think vocabulary counts for the goal of appearing more
intellectual...
i agree that pronouciation is hard to change
and probably i will live with accent all my life
but somehow i think it is not that important...
as long as i can express myself...and being articulate...
and being articulate is a gift, a talent...it roughly has nothing to do with
language per se...and that is the bad news ;-(
高
下
不
【在 t*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : 。 : 来 : Hmm, in speaking in English do you : 1. Compose sentences directly in English, without worrying much about the : grammar, or : 2. Compose sentences directly in English, consciously thinking about the : grammar, or : 3. Think in Chinese and then translate the whole thing? : 妨
| l***y 发帖数: 791 | 16 reading, speech, writing, these are all tied together so practicing
one should improve others. as to speech practice, public speeches
are more or less rehearsed (and scripted) so i wouldn't dream of talking
like that, not if i can help it! to me practicing speech would means casual
talks between friends, and about things I know or have thought about.
confidence is quite a key factor in a verbal performance.
one tends to stemmer in a difficult audition no matter what language is
on for the occass
【在 r*******w 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : one... : my spoken grammar is so bad : actually i think vocabulary counts for the goal of appearing more : intellectual... : i agree that pronouciation is hard to change : and probably i will live with accent all my life : but somehow i think it is not that important... : as long as i can express myself...and being articulate... : and being articulate is a gift, a talent...it roughly has nothing to do with : language per se...and that is the bad news ;-(
| t*******n 发帖数: 4445 | 17
Nod, nod.
看Conrad、 Nabokov用英文写小说写得地道,一直以为这二位是英语太牛的缘故。最近见
Joseph Brodsky、哈金竟然用英文做诗也做得地道,才明白这个写作/表达才能,是不大
分语言的。
不
掉
却
highly
【在 r*******w 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : one... : my spoken grammar is so bad : actually i think vocabulary counts for the goal of appearing more : intellectual... : i agree that pronouciation is hard to change : and probably i will live with accent all my life : but somehow i think it is not that important... : as long as i can express myself...and being articulate... : and being articulate is a gift, a talent...it roughly has nothing to do with : language per se...and that is the bad news ;-(
| c*******t 发帖数: 144 | 18 My personal experience (or rather, lessons :) as a beginner: Speak slowly and
clearly; choose simple sentences/words whenever you can; pause to think; do
not repeat yourself; and have confidence! Just think how few Americans could
speak Chinese as well as we speak English. :)
And it is what you say, not how you say it makes you intellectual, IMHO.
英
章
比
为
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 觉得这个版的语言高手较多。 : 最近经常在考虑怎样学习再英语的问题。觉得大部份人在来美国之后就没有系统的学习英 : 文了,而是想通过多听说的方法提高。但我越来越觉得还是要象中学大学一样,精读文章 : ,甚至也许要背诵一些东西才能有本质的变化。 : 我现在的英文水平在中国留学生中应是不错的了,能比较有效的交流,看书和电视都是比 : 较sophisticated类型,nytimes, charle rose show, etc. 但是说的话还是简单句式为 : 多,看得懂得gre词也一般说不出来。 有时特别恨这点,觉得sounds not like an : intellectual. 自然发音也有些毛病很是顽固。 : 请问如何提高? Suggestions, especially personal experiences are highly : appreciated.
| q*n 发帖数: 1203 | 19 thanks.
我觉得我的问题是英文的问题和语言的问题夹杂再一起。
像前面其他人说的,怎样最好的传达信息的确是一个和具体语言无关的问题。 我觉得很
多美国小孩讨论起问题来的语速,停顿什么的都帮助他们sounds persuasive, 当然有时
关键的几个vocabulary和句式的运用也很有帮助。 我最为不爽的就是努力的说出来的一
个观点,被他们paraphrase之后就听起来是个好得多的意思。
说话太快是我的大问题。
onal experience (or rather, lessons :) as a beginner: Speak slowly and
【在 c*******t 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : My personal experience (or rather, lessons :) as a beginner: Speak slowly and : clearly; choose simple sentences/words whenever you can; pause to think; do : not repeat yourself; and have confidence! Just think how few Americans could : speak Chinese as well as we speak English. :) : And it is what you say, not how you say it makes you intellectual, IMHO. : : 英 : 章 : 比 : 为
| D****N 发帖数: 430 | 20 hehe, A slight accent is considered exotic by most
native speakers! Chinese have far less severe accent
than people from some colonial countries like India
and Singapore, the English language itself is living,
as long as you can make yourself understood, anything
goes. I'm very proud of my chinese accent, my chinese
ways of constructing sentences and making up new words. :)
【在 r*******w 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : one... : my spoken grammar is so bad : actually i think vocabulary counts for the goal of appearing more : intellectual... : i agree that pronouciation is hard to change : and probably i will live with accent all my life : but somehow i think it is not that important... : as long as i can express myself...and being articulate... : and being articulate is a gift, a talent...it roughly has nothing to do with : language per se...and that is the bad news ;-(
| | | q*n 发帖数: 1203 | 21 agree.
我现在正是要中英文一并提高。
在国内的训练不够。
【在 t*******n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : Nod, nod. : 看Conrad、 Nabokov用英文写小说写得地道,一直以为这二位是英语太牛的缘故。最近见 : Joseph Brodsky、哈金竟然用英文做诗也做得地道,才明白这个写作/表达才能,是不大 : 分语言的。 : 不 : 掉 : 却 : highly
| p*******r 发帖数: 4048 | 22 Take a drama class.
英
章
比
为
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 觉得这个版的语言高手较多。 : 最近经常在考虑怎样学习再英语的问题。觉得大部份人在来美国之后就没有系统的学习英 : 文了,而是想通过多听说的方法提高。但我越来越觉得还是要象中学大学一样,精读文章 : ,甚至也许要背诵一些东西才能有本质的变化。 : 我现在的英文水平在中国留学生中应是不错的了,能比较有效的交流,看书和电视都是比 : 较sophisticated类型,nytimes, charle rose show, etc. 但是说的话还是简单句式为 : 多,看得懂得gre词也一般说不出来。 有时特别恨这点,觉得sounds not like an : intellectual. 自然发音也有些毛病很是顽固。 : 请问如何提高? Suggestions, especially personal experiences are highly : appreciated.
| p*******r 发帖数: 4048 | 23 accentuation is what gives the persuasiveness. Again, take a drama class.
很
时
一
do
could
学习
读文
都是
句式
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : thanks. : 我觉得我的问题是英文的问题和语言的问题夹杂再一起。 : 像前面其他人说的,怎样最好的传达信息的确是一个和具体语言无关的问题。 我觉得很 : 多美国小孩讨论起问题来的语速,停顿什么的都帮助他们sounds persuasive, 当然有时 : 关键的几个vocabulary和句式的运用也很有帮助。 我最为不爽的就是努力的说出来的一 : 个观点,被他们paraphrase之后就听起来是个好得多的意思。 : 说话太快是我的大问题。 : : onal experience (or rather, lessons :) as a beginner: Speak slowly and
| s*******d 发帖数: 126 | 24 This was how I improved my English.
I read, on average, 3 books every two weeks while I was in college. It was
because one of my best friends read roughly 5 books per week, an American
though. Nevertheless, I was easily inspired at a younger age.
I critically examined many of the books that I read and wrote papers to
express my views, with careful and repeated revisions.
I had american girlfriends.
I liked to have heated discussions with my friends, very frequently.
It was a lot of investment to
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 觉得这个版的语言高手较多。 : 最近经常在考虑怎样学习再英语的问题。觉得大部份人在来美国之后就没有系统的学习英 : 文了,而是想通过多听说的方法提高。但我越来越觉得还是要象中学大学一样,精读文章 : ,甚至也许要背诵一些东西才能有本质的变化。 : 我现在的英文水平在中国留学生中应是不错的了,能比较有效的交流,看书和电视都是比 : 较sophisticated类型,nytimes, charle rose show, etc. 但是说的话还是简单句式为 : 多,看得懂得gre词也一般说不出来。 有时特别恨这点,觉得sounds not like an : intellectual. 自然发音也有些毛病很是顽固。 : 请问如何提高? Suggestions, especially personal experiences are highly : appreciated.
| b*****y 发帖数: 163 | 25
the first thing comes your understanding of the topic not your management
of the language. an educated (or culturalized) speaker with an inherited
accent (sometimes with messed-up structures) is always superior to a native
less-informed.
【在 c*******t 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : My personal experience (or rather, lessons :) as a beginner: Speak slowly and : clearly; choose simple sentences/words whenever you can; pause to think; do : not repeat yourself; and have confidence! Just think how few Americans could : speak Chinese as well as we speak English. :) : And it is what you say, not how you say it makes you intellectual, IMHO. : : 英 : 章 : 比 : 为
| b*s 发帖数: 82482 | 26 这个是当然。一个很重口音的印度Ph.D还是比一个流利Brooklyn accent的rapper显得
有教养,呵呵。
【在 b*****y 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : : the first thing comes your understanding of the topic not your management : of the language. an educated (or culturalized) speaker with an inherited : accent (sometimes with messed-up structures) is always superior to a native : less-informed.
| g****d 发帖数: 3461 | 27
Not really. :-)
I am doing an Attic Orator class now.
We are reading a defense speech of murder written
by Lysias. I find the defense very persuasive
even though we can only read it.
Last semester we did a drama, Oedipus Rex.
Sophocles is great but the play is really hard.
It is funny to read the play in iambic trimeter.
【在 p*******r 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : accentuation is what gives the persuasiveness. Again, take a drama class. : : 很 : 时 : 一 : do : could : 学习 : 读文 : 都是
| g****d 发帖数: 3461 | 28
我想说翻译Nietzsche. Friedrich writes in a fine way.
Or one may learn to translate Cicero. He was the best
orator in Rome. Caesar was not too bad either.
好了, 不开玩笑了. 多看看书, 如果你是学自然科学的,
有一本叫自然的杂志, 上面的评论和读者来信写得很好.
很值得学习. 还有, 要学政客讲话也不难. 找几个国会
听证会的记录, 好好看看.
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 多谢指点。 : : reciting nietzsche? interesting idea. : 对,其实我当然是想说出来的话正点了,并不想很文绉绉的,只是想用词更精确和有一定 : 变化,大概象受过良好本科教育的美国孩子那样就很好了。从句是有那个作用的。 : 除了尼采,还有什么建议吗?他不是英国人呢。 : 量 : 变换 : 非常好的主意。具体怎么练? 就唱一般的流行歌曲? : 双元音说的太快绝对是很多人的毛病,我也是。
| or 发帖数: 720 | 29 my feeling is, for language, similar to other things, say research projects,
you have to really get into it, and eventually be at ease with it. for
reading, i read a lot of english fictions in china very quickly and probably
very carelessly; it helped for sure but my writing stank straight way all the
time. it was a few years later that i read favorite pieces very very slowly,
digesting sentence by sentence, even word by word and grabbed any chance to
express in english. they turned out both
【在 q*n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 觉得这个版的语言高手较多。 : 最近经常在考虑怎样学习再英语的问题。觉得大部份人在来美国之后就没有系统的学习英 : 文了,而是想通过多听说的方法提高。但我越来越觉得还是要象中学大学一样,精读文章 : ,甚至也许要背诵一些东西才能有本质的变化。 : 我现在的英文水平在中国留学生中应是不错的了,能比较有效的交流,看书和电视都是比 : 较sophisticated类型,nytimes, charle rose show, etc. 但是说的话还是简单句式为 : 多,看得懂得gre词也一般说不出来。 有时特别恨这点,觉得sounds not like an : intellectual. 自然发音也有些毛病很是顽固。 : 请问如何提高? Suggestions, especially personal experiences are highly : appreciated.
| l***y 发帖数: 791 | 30 sigh. //admire
the
slowly,
习
文
是
式
【在 or 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : my feeling is, for language, similar to other things, say research projects, : you have to really get into it, and eventually be at ease with it. for : reading, i read a lot of english fictions in china very quickly and probably : very carelessly; it helped for sure but my writing stank straight way all the : time. it was a few years later that i read favorite pieces very very slowly, : digesting sentence by sentence, even word by word and grabbed any chance to : express in english. they turned out both
| | | p******s 发帖数: 137 | 31 admire...
the
slowly,
习
文
是
式
【在 or 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : my feeling is, for language, similar to other things, say research projects, : you have to really get into it, and eventually be at ease with it. for : reading, i read a lot of english fictions in china very quickly and probably : very carelessly; it helped for sure but my writing stank straight way all the : time. it was a few years later that i read favorite pieces very very slowly, : digesting sentence by sentence, even word by word and grabbed any chance to : express in english. they turned out both
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