on
发帖数: 199 | 1 以为有工作 就 有保险 的，请看下面的case：
Jack 在一家大公司工作，有很好的 健康保险。
有一天 他不舒服，见医生，建议各种 TESTs。没问题，Jack 可以请病假。
不好的事，Jack 发现有癌症， 需要做手术 和 化疗。没问题，Jack 有保险，可以请
病假。
手术很成功，但是需要继续化疗；没问题， Jack took 6-month short-term
disability leave。
半年后，Jack 还是不能回去上班，得继续治疗，他只有离开公司 （no company would
keep an employee on its payroll indefinitely if he/she couldn't perform his
/her job). 好消息是，Jack 可以 继续 加入 公司的 Group Plan （18 months 或 2
years？）
2 年后，Jack 的 病情 得到控制，但医生说 他得 继续 治疗，而且 药费 特别贵。但
公司的 Group Plan 的两年期限要到了，怎么办呢？ |
g********e
发帖数: 223 | 2 doesn't company has long term disability insurance? something like 66%
salary indefinitely?
would
his
2
【在 on 的大作中提到】
: 以为有工作 就 有保险 的，请看下面的case：
: Jack 在一家大公司工作，有很好的 健康保险。
: 有一天 他不舒服，见医生，建议各种 TESTs。没问题，Jack 可以请病假。
: 不好的事，Jack 发现有癌症， 需要做手术 和 化疗。没问题，Jack 有保险，可以请
: 病假。
: 手术很成功，但是需要继续化疗；没问题， Jack took 6-month short-term
: disability leave。
: 半年后，Jack 还是不能回去上班，得继续治疗，他只有离开公司 （no company would
: keep an employee on its payroll indefinitely if he/she couldn't perform his
: /her job). 好消息是，Jack 可以 继续 加入 公司的 Group Plan （18 months 或 2
|
D********e
发帖数: 31 | 3 工资是有，但是还是没有保险啊
【在 g********e 的大作中提到】
: doesn't company has long term disability insurance? something like 66%
: salary indefinitely?
:
: would
: his
: 2
|
g********e
发帖数: 223 | 4 My understanding was with long term disability, you are still part of the
company. they can only let you go in large lay off (eg. whole group).
【在 D********e 的大作中提到】
: 工资是有，但是还是没有保险啊
|
T******0
发帖数: 1071 | 5 你这个例子有多少普遍性呢？要顾及这样的case,只要修法extend cobra就好啦。大部
分因obamacare受惠的人是这种情况吗？
would
his
2
【在 on 的大作中提到】
: 以为有工作 就 有保险 的，请看下面的case：
: Jack 在一家大公司工作，有很好的 健康保险。
: 有一天 他不舒服，见医生，建议各种 TESTs。没问题，Jack 可以请病假。
: 不好的事，Jack 发现有癌症， 需要做手术 和 化疗。没问题，Jack 有保险，可以请
: 病假。
: 手术很成功，但是需要继续化疗；没问题， Jack took 6-month short-term
: disability leave。
: 半年后，Jack 还是不能回去上班，得继续治疗，他只有离开公司 （no company would
: keep an employee on its payroll indefinitely if he/she couldn't perform his
: /her job). 好消息是，Jack 可以 继续 加入 公司的 Group Plan （18 months 或 2
|
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 6 Jack should have bought his own life insurance -- independent of group
policy.
would
his
2
【在 on 的大作中提到】
: 以为有工作 就 有保险 的，请看下面的case：
: Jack 在一家大公司工作，有很好的 健康保险。
: 有一天 他不舒服，见医生，建议各种 TESTs。没问题，Jack 可以请病假。
: 不好的事，Jack 发现有癌症， 需要做手术 和 化疗。没问题，Jack 有保险，可以请
: 病假。
: 手术很成功，但是需要继续化疗；没问题， Jack took 6-month short-term
: disability leave。
: 半年后，Jack 还是不能回去上班，得继续治疗，他只有离开公司 （no company would
: keep an employee on its payroll indefinitely if he/she couldn't perform his
: /her job). 好消息是，Jack 可以 继续 加入 公司的 Group Plan （18 months 或 2
|
on
发帖数: 199 | 7 一并回复：
Long-term disability insurance: yes, many firms offer this, but it's about
salary replacement. It's NOT medical insurance. Also, the payment comes
directly from an insurance company and has nothing to do with the original
employer which just paid long-term disability premiums. One is NOT
considered to be an employee anymore once one is on this.
Cobra extension: It'd be helpful if a law extends its time limit, but not
yet, right? Even if the law is changed for cobra (well, nobody even talked
about this so it's highly unlikely), what if the company eventually goes
bankcrupted?
Life insurnace: this offers benefit to family AFTER one dies. The issue here
is about how to get medical insurance when one is ill.
How many people would benefit from a universal healthcare? Good point. The
vast majority of middle classes would be able to afford seeing a doctor /
receiving treatment, as long as the illness is not too serious and lasts too
long like the case discussed here. Also, just a tiny fraction of people
would get terribly debilitating car accidents, so it's very true the chance
for any of us to get into such a situation. But the same arguments could
apply to almost any other insurances, such as like, car, home, etc. I know
many don't carry life insurance, and often read stories here to ask for
donation once some terrible accidendts happened...
Nothing wrong with that, but hope everyone makes a good, and informed
decision, than based on some misperception.
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: Jack should have bought his own life insurance -- independent of group
: policy.
:
: would
: his
: 2
|
T******0
发帖数: 1071 | 8 关于life insurance,查一下 terminal illness rider。
关键是真正的insurance是自己选的，没人逼你买，更没人逼你给别人买。你说的“好
处”，就好像你被抢了100块，然后安慰自己说有一天可能我也会拿回10块。给自己洗
完脑又想来说服别人。典型的斯德歌尔摩综合症。
【在 on 的大作中提到】
: 一并回复：
: Long-term disability insurance: yes, many firms offer this, but it's about
: salary replacement. It's NOT medical insurance. Also, the payment comes
: directly from an insurance company and has nothing to do with the original
: employer which just paid long-term disability premiums. One is NOT
: considered to be an employee anymore once one is on this.
: Cobra extension: It'd be helpful if a law extends its time limit, but not
: yet, right? Even if the law is changed for cobra (well, nobody even talked
: about this so it's highly unlikely), what if the company eventually goes
: bankcrupted?
|
|
s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 9 "真正的insurance是自己选的". not necessarily true.
think about your car insurance, you know what happens if you do not buy.
forcing everyone to buy insurance does not sound cool of course.
I think the government should just collect tax and use part of tax to do
health insurance. even supreme court agrees this is a tax even though Obama
disagree. it is funny. it is all politics.
Obama should cut more other government program instead of raising any taxes,
but again it is hard for him to do especially during the bad economy. but I
think this is also what republican wants.
so it is comprise, not that bad.
【在 T******0 的大作中提到】
: 关于life insurance,查一下 terminal illness rider。
: 关键是真正的insurance是自己选的，没人逼你买，更没人逼你给别人买。你说的“好
: 处”，就好像你被抢了100块，然后安慰自己说有一天可能我也会拿回10块。给自己洗
: 完脑又想来说服别人。典型的斯德歌尔摩综合症。
|
Z*****l
发帖数: 14069 | 10 就搞不懂你们这些支持奥巴马的，你们喜欢高福利，去欧洲或者加拿大工作退休不就好
了，为什么非要把最后一个还能让人劳动致富的国家美国也搞成懒人天堂呢？做事不要
太绝好不好。
would
his
2
【在 on 的大作中提到】
: 以为有工作 就 有保险 的，请看下面的case：
: Jack 在一家大公司工作，有很好的 健康保险。
: 有一天 他不舒服，见医生，建议各种 TESTs。没问题，Jack 可以请病假。
: 不好的事，Jack 发现有癌症， 需要做手术 和 化疗。没问题，Jack 有保险，可以请
: 病假。
: 手术很成功，但是需要继续化疗；没问题， Jack took 6-month short-term
: disability leave。
: 半年后，Jack 还是不能回去上班，得继续治疗，他只有离开公司 （no company would
: keep an employee on its payroll indefinitely if he/she couldn't perform his
: /her job). 好消息是，Jack 可以 继续 加入 公司的 Group Plan （18 months 或 2
|
|
|
n******h
发帖数: 2482 | 11 You have the right not to drive a car, and you don't have to pay car
insurance in that case.
I can't wait for the day the government forces everyone to buy a car
insurance, regardless whether you have a car.
Obama
taxes,
I
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: "真正的insurance是自己选的". not necessarily true.
: think about your car insurance, you know what happens if you do not buy.
: forcing everyone to buy insurance does not sound cool of course.
: I think the government should just collect tax and use part of tax to do
: health insurance. even supreme court agrees this is a tax even though Obama
: disagree. it is funny. it is all politics.
: Obama should cut more other government program instead of raising any taxes,
: but again it is hard for him to do especially during the bad economy. but I
: think this is also what republican wants.
: so it is comprise, not that bad.
|
l******c
发帖数: 2555 | 12 lay off does not need any reason, that is at will employment.
【在 g********e 的大作中提到】
: My understanding was with long term disability, you are still part of the
: company. they can only let you go in large lay off (eg. whole group).
|
s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 13 health insurance is not "高福利".
it is No.1 basic 福利 to me.
even higher than education. American has public education, why you guys do
not complain about it. do you know your tax $ support poor kids going to to
school?
health insurance is more important than education.
naive, sometimes too simple.
【在 Z*****l 的大作中提到】
: 就搞不懂你们这些支持奥巴马的，你们喜欢高福利，去欧洲或者加拿大工作退休不就好
: 了，为什么非要把最后一个还能让人劳动致富的国家美国也搞成懒人天堂呢？做事不要
: 太绝好不好。
:
: would
: his
: 2
|
s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 14 cobra requires your company continue to live :)
many startups come and go and people do not even have a cobra choice.
I personally experienced one in 2009 during the worst economy.
you need to grow a little older to be wiser.
【在 T******0 的大作中提到】
: 你这个例子有多少普遍性呢？要顾及这样的case,只要修法extend cobra就好啦。大部
: 分因obamacare受惠的人是这种情况吗？
:
: would
: his
: 2
|
T******0
发帖数: 1071 | 15 老人家，Cobra法律是可以改的。现在这个obamacare，你只是间接受益者，却是直接受
害者。如果这样你还感觉庆幸，那不是wisdom,而是阿Q。
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: cobra requires your company continue to live :)
: many startups come and go and people do not even have a cobra choice.
: I personally experienced one in 2009 during the worst economy.
: you need to grow a little older to be wiser.
|
w******y
发帖数: 8040 | 16 Just give me a simple answer:
WHO will pay for the unlimited extension of cobra?
Is it a free lunch?
【在 T******0 的大作中提到】
: 老人家，Cobra法律是可以改的。现在这个obamacare，你只是间接受益者，却是直接受
: 害者。如果这样你还感觉庆幸，那不是wisdom,而是阿Q。
|
m********8
发帖数: 7463 | 17 怎么会是受害者呢。大家都有保险，都是受益者。
那天我在聚会上认识的一个美国人姐姐就说“obamacare, everyone wins!" 人家可是
在santa clara county工作的，又有钱懂得又多
【在 T******0 的大作中提到】
: 老人家，Cobra法律是可以改的。现在这个obamacare，你只是间接受益者，却是直接受
: 害者。如果这样你还感觉庆幸，那不是wisdom,而是阿Q。
|
m********8
发帖数: 7463 | 18 政府有钱着呢，你们都是皇帝不急。 嘻嘻
你看santa clara 政府里面，可阔气了。普通办公的椅子都是上千的 herman miller还
是啥的。电脑屏幕都是27寸的，而且人手一个 macbook pro. 我认识的一个姐姐，2000
多的本子苹果还没开始卖，她就pre-order了。政府给报销。假期福利保险就更别说了
，这还只是个县政府。她说警察那边更夸张，没事儿就用抓大麻为借口开着直升机兜风，
你们老说政府没钱，其实他们有的是钱。花不完的。花完了还可以印。
问题就是医疗上面太省，故意深化经济危机，只有Obama 这样的总统，才会推动法律把
钱花在老百姓身上！！
【在 w******y 的大作中提到】
: Just give me a simple answer:
: WHO will pay for the unlimited extension of cobra?
: Is it a free lunch?
|
w******y
发帖数: 8040 | 19 hahaha, you are smart to be cynical to those gov woodworms
2000
风，
【在 m********8 的大作中提到】
: 政府有钱着呢，你们都是皇帝不急。 嘻嘻
: 你看santa clara 政府里面，可阔气了。普通办公的椅子都是上千的 herman miller还
: 是啥的。电脑屏幕都是27寸的，而且人手一个 macbook pro. 我认识的一个姐姐，2000
: 多的本子苹果还没开始卖，她就pre-order了。政府给报销。假期福利保险就更别说了
: ，这还只是个县政府。她说警察那边更夸张，没事儿就用抓大麻为借口开着直升机兜风，
: 你们老说政府没钱，其实他们有的是钱。花不完的。花完了还可以印。
: 问题就是医疗上面太省，故意深化经济危机，只有Obama 这样的总统，才会推动法律把
: 钱花在老百姓身上！！
|
m********8
发帖数: 7463 | 20 谁跟你cynical 阿，大哥！我是有话直说的
【在 w******y 的大作中提到】
: hahaha, you are smart to be cynical to those gov woodworms
:
: 2000
: 风，
|
|
|
g********e
发帖数: 223 | 21 With Obamacare, Jack will be able to buy insurance at regular rate.
【在 on 的大作中提到】
: 一并回复：
: Long-term disability insurance: yes, many firms offer this, but it's about
: salary replacement. It's NOT medical insurance. Also, the payment comes
: directly from an insurance company and has nothing to do with the original
: employer which just paid long-term disability premiums. One is NOT
: considered to be an employee anymore once one is on this.
: Cobra extension: It'd be helpful if a law extends its time limit, but not
: yet, right? Even if the law is changed for cobra (well, nobody even talked
: about this so it's highly unlikely), what if the company eventually goes
: bankcrupted?
|
G****s
发帖数: 3523 | 22 selling fear is what politicians do.
they sell, we buy. most of time it's an acceptable trade.
politicians win big, but we don't lose much, because there is a large number
of us. In this trade, we gain some security too. It's not always a robbery.
when politicians start to sell something that people don't even want to buy,
it's the politician's problem, not the people's.
I'll tell you a better answer to your example:
if you are single, die. it's better than living like that.
if you have a family to support, get life insurance when you are healthy.
when you have cancer that drains all your money you saved to support your
family and your children's education, and there is no hope that you will get
back to work (give up, my friend, after 2 years of the cancer you described
), commit suicide.
Is living like that, trading all your dignity for a few years's meaningless
life, more important than your dignity?
would
his
2
【在 on 的大作中提到】
: 以为有工作 就 有保险 的，请看下面的case：
: Jack 在一家大公司工作，有很好的 健康保险。
: 有一天 他不舒服，见医生，建议各种 TESTs。没问题，Jack 可以请病假。
: 不好的事，Jack 发现有癌症， 需要做手术 和 化疗。没问题，Jack 有保险，可以请
: 病假。
: 手术很成功，但是需要继续化疗；没问题， Jack took 6-month short-term
: disability leave。
: 半年后，Jack 还是不能回去上班，得继续治疗，他只有离开公司 （no company would
: keep an employee on its payroll indefinitely if he/she couldn't perform his
: /her job). 好消息是，Jack 可以 继续 加入 公司的 Group Plan （18 months 或 2
|
l******c
发帖数: 2555 | 23 are you kidding?
where to buy life insurance for cancer?
What I know is insurance company can terminate your plan during the renew
period each year without any reason, just like at will employment.
number
robbery.
buy,
【在 G****s 的大作中提到】
: selling fear is what politicians do.
: they sell, we buy. most of time it's an acceptable trade.
: politicians win big, but we don't lose much, because there is a large number
: of us. In this trade, we gain some security too. It's not always a robbery.
: when politicians start to sell something that people don't even want to buy,
: it's the politician's problem, not the people's.
: I'll tell you a better answer to your example:
: if you are single, die. it's better than living like that.
: if you have a family to support, get life insurance when you are healthy.
: when you have cancer that drains all your money you saved to support your
|
G****s
发帖数: 3523 | 24 buy when you start a family.
read, please.
【在 l******c 的大作中提到】
: are you kidding?
: where to buy life insurance for cancer?
: What I know is insurance company can terminate your plan during the renew
: period each year without any reason, just like at will employment.
:
: number
: robbery.
: buy,
|
f********o
发帖数: 2181 | 25 根源是美国医疗产业太黑
医院/医生/药厂/保险公司坐地抢钱
我几年前在欧洲读书, 买的商业保险一年才要300多欧元
看病费用报销100%, 另外还管各种其他情况, 包括旅游被盗(我用过, 被偷的全赔付了)
美国的医疗产业太暴利了
一点小病就开天价帐单
【在 on 的大作中提到】
: 以为有工作 就 有保险 的，请看下面的case：
: Jack 在一家大公司工作，有很好的 健康保险。
: 有一天 他不舒服，见医生，建议各种 TESTs。没问题，Jack 可以请病假。
: 不好的事，Jack 发现有癌症， 需要做手术 和 化疗。没问题，Jack 有保险，可以请
: 病假。
: 手术很成功，但是需要继续化疗；没问题， Jack took 6-month short-term
: disability leave。
: 半年后，Jack 还是不能回去上班，得继续治疗，他只有离开公司 （no company would
: keep an employee on its payroll indefinitely if he/she couldn't perform his
: /her job). 好消息是，Jack 可以 继续 加入 公司的 Group Plan （18 months 或 2
|
s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 26 教育和医疗是不能全部商业化的。 中国已经回头了， 美国肯定也会走全民健保的路
。
资本的本质是逐利。 这些都跟教育和医疗的宗旨不相符的。
了)
【在 f********o 的大作中提到】
: 根源是美国医疗产业太黑
: 医院/医生/药厂/保险公司坐地抢钱
: 我几年前在欧洲读书, 买的商业保险一年才要300多欧元
: 看病费用报销100%, 另外还管各种其他情况, 包括旅游被盗(我用过, 被偷的全赔付了)
: 美国的医疗产业太暴利了
: 一点小病就开天价帐单
|
g********e
发帖数: 223 | 27 要钱不要命。
Obamacare helps you to avoid this choice.
when you have cancer that drains all your money you saved to support your
family and your children's education, and there is no hope that you will get
back to work (give up, my friend, after 2 years of the cancer you described
), commit suicide.
【在 G****s 的大作中提到】
: buy when you start a family.
: read, please.
|
B******e
发帖数: 5730 | 28 对保险制度不了解，不要乱说
保险不是福利，
美国的保险只保健康的人，有了病立马不 cover, 这不叫保险，叫做抢钱
【在 Z*****l 的大作中提到】
: 就搞不懂你们这些支持奥巴马的，你们喜欢高福利，去欧洲或者加拿大工作退休不就好
: 了，为什么非要把最后一个还能让人劳动致富的国家美国也搞成懒人天堂呢？做事不要
: 太绝好不好。
:
: would
: his
: 2
|
B******e
发帖数: 5730 | 29 那么假设你生了个长期老人病，却又死不了，例如中风，老人痴呆
life insurance 对你有何用处？
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: Jack should have bought his own life insurance -- independent of group
: policy.
:
: would
: his
: 2
|
B******e
发帖数: 5730 | 30 我同意买保险应该是个人决定
例如，有的美国公民，生下来就住在海外，根本就用不到美国保险，应该让他们选择不
加入。
但是，健康保险制度必须有效对付，想走漏洞，占整个社会的便宜的 free riders
对于选择不参加保险的人，应该有2项规定
1. 生了病，急诊室没有义务急救，必须先出示财力证明，并有人担保负担医疗费
2. 年轻时不保，老了患病风险高了，想参加保险，必须一次性将未交的保费付清,
包括医疗费用 inflation compounded (注意，这不是 consumer price
inflation， 是每年10%以上) 再加上危害保险制度的罚款（如果每个人
都选择病了才投保，保险制度就垮了，所以必须有条款鼓励人参加）
结论是，你可以选择不参加，但是要承担风险
【在 T******0 的大作中提到】
: 关于life insurance,查一下 terminal illness rider。
: 关键是真正的insurance是自己选的，没人逼你买，更没人逼你给别人买。你说的“好
: 处”，就好像你被抢了100块，然后安慰自己说有一天可能我也会拿回10块。给自己洗
: 完脑又想来说服别人。典型的斯德歌尔摩综合症。
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B******e
发帖数: 5730 | 31 同意你可以选择不买保险
但是，你生了病必须自付费用，别指望急诊室无条件救你
【在 n******h 的大作中提到】
: You have the right not to drive a car, and you don't have to pay car
: insurance in that case.
: I can't wait for the day the government forces everyone to buy a car
: insurance, regardless whether you have a car.
:
: Obama
: taxes,
: I
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s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 32 这种条款跟没有没什么区别。
如果真实行了，就跟中国医院没钱不给治一样了。
开一刀拿一刀的钱？ 这些都是很荒牛的。
台湾香港日本欧洲都已经实行了，为什么美国不干？ 政客们整天扯淡而以。
【在 B******e 的大作中提到】
: 同意你可以选择不买保险
: 但是，你生了病必须自付费用，别指望急诊室无条件救你
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G****s
发帖数: 3523 | 33 I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. that is my choice.
if you have a type of cancer like LZ described, what would you do? I won't
live like that.
I understand people have different choices. But believe it or not, 1) don't
dream that government takes care of you the way you are thinking today. 2)
when you are like that, you are your family's cancer cell. You will take
your whole family's happiness and life quality down the drain. No one except
yourself can make the right choice when the time comes.
This probably have nothing to do with o8care. personally I am not for or
against o8care. I am just a little sick of coward people with such level of
fear of death think o8care will save them.
get
described
【在 g********e 的大作中提到】
: 要钱不要命。
: Obamacare helps you to avoid this choice.
:
: when you have cancer that drains all your money you saved to support your
: family and your children's education, and there is no hope that you will get
: back to work (give up, my friend, after 2 years of the cancer you described
: ), commit suicide.
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g********e
发帖数: 223 | 34 奥巴马在讲话中说，最高法院的判决再次宣示，作为全球最富裕国家的美国，不应让任
何家庭仅仅因为一场病或一起事故而倾家荡产。
I am just a little sick of coward people with such level of
fear of death think o8care will save them.
【在 G****s 的大作中提到】
: I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. that is my choice.
: if you have a type of cancer like LZ described, what would you do? I won't
: live like that.
: I understand people have different choices. But believe it or not, 1) don't
: dream that government takes care of you the way you are thinking today. 2)
: when you are like that, you are your family's cancer cell. You will take
: your whole family's happiness and life quality down the drain. No one except
: yourself can make the right choice when the time comes.
: This probably have nothing to do with o8care. personally I am not for or
: against o8care. I am just a little sick of coward people with such level of
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m********8
发帖数: 7463 | 35 就是。全球最富裕的国家和政府，肯定有钱办这个事情
大家不要争执了。享受这个法律带来的peace of mind!
【在 g********e 的大作中提到】
: 奥巴马在讲话中说，最高法院的判决再次宣示，作为全球最富裕国家的美国，不应让任
: 何家庭仅仅因为一场病或一起事故而倾家荡产。
:
: I am just a little sick of coward people with such level of
: fear of death think o8care will save them.
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l*****2
发帖数: 799 | 36 你不买保险，是么，斯德哥尔摩2？
【在 T******0 的大作中提到】
: 关于life insurance,查一下 terminal illness rider。
: 关键是真正的insurance是自己选的，没人逼你买，更没人逼你给别人买。你说的“好
: 处”，就好像你被抢了100块，然后安慰自己说有一天可能我也会拿回10块。给自己洗
: 完脑又想来说服别人。典型的斯德歌尔摩综合症。
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T******0
发帖数: 1071 | 37 懂不懂什么叫斯德哥尔摩综合症？我被抢了，至少不会对抢劫者有好感，为其开脱。
【在 l*****2 的大作中提到】
: 你不买保险，是么，斯德哥尔摩2？
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m********8
发帖数: 7463 | 38 大哥说的真有道理，对，主要是政客扯蛋！
那么多国家都有钱办，美国就更有！
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: 这种条款跟没有没什么区别。
: 如果真实行了，就跟中国医院没钱不给治一样了。
: 开一刀拿一刀的钱？ 这些都是很荒牛的。
: 台湾香港日本欧洲都已经实行了，为什么美国不干？ 政客们整天扯淡而以。
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