W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 1 随便写在zhiyoucheng的..这也帖一下~~~
3 bet, 也就是在有人preflop raise 的情况下加注. 这是一个NLH里极其赚钱的手段,
简单原因是因为你有很多fold equity. 如果对手每次都call, flop 后miss 就fold.
长期你肯定赚钱, 因为他miss 可能比make 大得多~~如何对应3 bet 也是一个很大的课
题. 很多时候的共识是在被人3 bet 的情况下, 基本都是-ev,除非你恰好有AA, 主要
讨论是如何减少-ev 的程度. 我不讨论这个问题, 只是想说明为十么3 bet 那么
profitable.
3 bet 分几个阶段, 根据牌手的不同水平. 这和thinking level 很象, level 越高,
对手的level 也要相应高, 否则反而适得其反.
level 1 : 从不3 bet. 这个低级别的选手不懂3 bet, 有十么牌都call. 基本属于
不会打.
level 2: 会3 bet purely for value, 基本只3 bet AA KK QQ. AK 对于他们都属于
drawing hand, 所以call. 这中打发对一点都不会打的人很管用, 但碰到会一点点牌的
人就傻眼了, 因为别人不会给你任何action.
level 3: level 2 意识到只3 bet QQ KK AA, 没action, 所以就加入3 bet AK, (AQs
, KQs maybe), 这样3 bet 的选择一下多了很多,也就是说range 大了一点, 这样别人
用10s Js 给你action 的可能也多了些.. 不过某些人在这个level 里AK 3 bet后,
post flop miss 就check, 给了太多的tell, 结果很容易被读, 所以要尽可能做到AK
AA KK 的post flop action 很接近, 才有效果. 这里AK AQ KQ 的3 bet 是mainly for
value, partially for semibluff, 因为你其实是behind所有的pocket pair 的.
level 4: level 3 听上去不错, 不过当对手水平增高时, 我们会碰到一个难题,
caped range. 如果对手会hand read 或考虑range,并了解你3的bet 的range里只有AQ
+ QQ+, 当flop 出来6s7s8c 5s6s9h, 别人知道你这时最多就是一个over pair 或十
么都没有, 那你的range 就是caped. 那么你就处于一个非常vonurable 的地步, 因为
高手打牌首先要keep your range wide. 你的range 一cap, 你只能被屡屡bluff, 筹
码一深, 这个问题更严重.. 这是我们就要加入一些pure semibluff 的牌, 比如 78s
98s. 10Js, 这下你的range 更balance 了, 别人就不敢在某些board texture 下不断
的attack 你了. 新手可能会问, 我都不ahead 别人长期3 bet 9s8s 会不会-ev. 我说
不会, 其实你这里3 bet 非常好. 因为你有fold equity.. flop 出来AKQ, 他门几乎
肯定fold 给你的c bet, 因为他们有AA KK QQ 基本4 bet(高手也有可能flat 这些牌,
但我们不讨论这些), 所以这board, hit 我们的perceived range. 如果flop 出来
6s5s3h, 也很好, 因为it indeed hits our range, 我们在pot 里往往会有很多equity
or even ahead.
level 5: 3 bet any 2 card, pure bluff.. 这里有可能是在某些spot. squeeze
with any 2 card 也是正ev 的, 或你觉得你可以3 bet wide, 还能在post flop out
play 别人, 特别是你在button 的时候, 因为有位置, 如果筹码又深就更好了.. HSP
里有些地方他们3 bet with 102o 就是这个原因..
在运用这些不同level 3 bet 的时候, 一定要注意对手的水平. 这就和thinking level
一样, 要比别人高一层才有作用.. 当你可以对不同对手改变自己的3 bet range 和
level时, 我可以告诉你, 你打得已经非常好了, beat NL200/400 online应该没问题. | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 2 其实很多small stake的reg, 都有一个很fix的3 bet range. 3 bet range 基本有两种
,一种是polarized 3 bet range, 一种是depolorized range.
假设两者 都有 5% 3 bet range.
depolarized 3 bet range, 基本包括99+ AJs+.
polarized range 里就复杂一点, 因为其中semibluff 和value range 的组成可能不同
. 假设是一半一半, 那么基本是 JJ+ AKs+ 和suited connectors 之类的semibluff.
这两种range 各有利弊, 主要要看对手对3 bet 的反应. 最好的办法当然是不要有一
个fix range, 根据对手的不同做调整.那我们就又比那些普通reg 高了点点.. 长期
profit 也就比他们多... 至于如何调整,我就不展开了. 反正打牌时自己多想想range
, villian's open range是十么? 你在villian 眼中是十么3 bet range? what is
his call 3 bet range? what is his 4 bet range? 再结合board texture 考虑post
flop如何proceed. 打了多了这些就会一点一点变得非常清晰. | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 3 我这块里只是总结了一些很基本的东西, 稍微会一点牌的人都懂, 就算不懂, 读一下,
想一想几分钟也就懂了. 真真的课题的是如何根据对手调整3 bet range. 这就不是
一句两句可以总结完的, 其实我自己也在不停的摸索和进步中. 不过这些基础理论和思
考方法应该可以帮助我们找到很多答案. 这个课题里最高级的当然是fcf 这种级别的选
手, 对一个对手, 在一个session里都要不停得调整3 bet range. 但在NL200 以下, 基
本对手都不回adjust 得那么多. 有些人, 你连续3 bet 他4,5 次他还在fold, 在等那"
perfect hand"来play back. 所以还是简单很多的..
在随便讲一个在rush poker 中如何注意自己在别人眼中的3 bet range for on-line
players only. 在rush poker里, 很多牌别人都没有看到, 但HUD都record了. 所以,
你一般在3 bet 的pot 里, 应该考虑自己在HUD里是十么3 bet 的数据来proceed 你的
post flop 玩法, 比如说你over all 3 bet 是5%. 但如果有人fold to 3 bet 很高>
80%, 你为了exploit 他, 明显加强了对他的3 bet bluff, 那你在他个人的HUD 数据里
可能就是10%或15% 3 bet. 那你就不能用5% 3 bet 的image 来proceed 你的post flop
, 因为你的3 bet range 会影响到对手很多post flop 的玩法..而且如果对手fold to
3 bet 80%, 他一call, 一般都要非常小心, 当然如果你这时正好有pocket As, 那么恭
喜你你被pay off 的时候到了~~~ | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 4 good， 说道3bet
今天有一手
mp1 3x raise， button call， 我在BB 3bet到 13.5bb （JJ）
mp1 4bet到44bb all in， call or fold？
mp1是poonking，我有他1300手数据，应该是个regular，15/12/4.6
fold to 3bet 71%,
shall I fold or call
下,
那"
,
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 我这块里只是总结了一些很基本的东西, 稍微会一点牌的人都懂, 就算不懂, 读一下,
: 想一想几分钟也就懂了. 真真的课题的是如何根据对手调整3 bet range. 这就不是
: 一句两句可以总结完的, 其实我自己也在不停的摸索和进步中. 不过这些基础理论和思
: 考方法应该可以帮助我们找到很多答案. 这个课题里最高级的当然是fcf 这种级别的选
: 手, 对一个对手, 在一个session里都要不停得调整3 bet range. 但在NL200 以下, 基
: 本对手都不回adjust 得那么多. 有些人, 你连续3 bet 他4,5 次他还在fold, 在等那"
: perfect hand"来play back. 所以还是简单很多的..
: 在随便讲一个在rush poker 中如何注意自己在别人眼中的3 bet range for on-line
: players only. 在rush poker里, 很多牌别人都没有看到, 但HUD都record了. 所以,
: 你一般在3 bet 的pot 里, 应该考虑自己在HUD里是十么3 bet 的数据来proceed 你的
| L****n
发帖数: 490 | 5 I don't like 3 betting MP with JJ. JJ plays really bad versus villain's 3
bet calling range or 4 bet range. You pretty much turn JJ into a bluff. | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 6 poonking fold to 3 bet is almost 80% in my HUD(I know this without even looking at my HD. I exploit him all the time. lol). I think you are behind his 4 bet shove range probably 1010+ AQ+. But with the dead money in the pot i am never folding here. I don't think squeeze here is bad with JJ at all. Poonking is not a short stack nit. His opening range is pretty wide.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: good， 说道3bet
: 今天有一手
: mp1 3x raise， button call， 我在BB 3bet到 13.5bb （JJ）
: mp1 4bet到44bb all in， call or fold？
: mp1是poonking，我有他1300手数据，应该是个regular，15/12/4.6
: fold to 3bet 71%,
: shall I fold or call
:
: 下,
: 那"
| g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 7 poonking is a short stack 4 table regs. Open wide and always fold to my 3
bet. I feel he does not want to play with me for some reasons.
looking at my HD. I exploit him all the time. lol). I think you are behind
his 4 bet shove range probably 1010+ AQ+. But with the dead money in the pot
i am never folding here. I don't think squeeze here is bad with JJ at all.
Poonking is not a short stack nit. His opening range is pretty wide.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: poonking fold to 3 bet is almost 80% in my HUD(I know this without even looking at my HD. I exploit him all the time. lol). I think you are behind his 4 bet shove range probably 1010+ AQ+. But with the dead money in the pot i am never folding here. I don't think squeeze here is bad with JJ at all. Poonking is not a short stack nit. His opening range is pretty wide.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 8 great post!
,
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 随便写在zhiyoucheng的..这也帖一下~~~
: 3 bet, 也就是在有人preflop raise 的情况下加注. 这是一个NLH里极其赚钱的手段,
: 简单原因是因为你有很多fold equity. 如果对手每次都call, flop 后miss 就fold.
: 长期你肯定赚钱, 因为他miss 可能比make 大得多~~如何对应3 bet 也是一个很大的课
: 题. 很多时候的共识是在被人3 bet 的情况下, 基本都是-ev,除非你恰好有AA, 主要
: 讨论是如何减少-ev 的程度. 我不讨论这个问题, 只是想说明为十么3 bet 那么
: profitable.
: 3 bet 分几个阶段, 根据牌手的不同水平. 这和thinking level 很象, level 越高,
: 对手的level 也要相应高, 否则反而适得其反.
: level 1 : 从不3 bet. 这个低级别的选手不懂3 bet, 有十么牌都call. 基本属于
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 9 he just folds to 3 bet a lot. no need to 3 bet him a lot if just you and him
. i always 3 bet him 8X and he always folds unless he gets a hand. Why 3
bet 10X when 8X works the same? lol...
pot
all.
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: poonking is a short stack 4 table regs. Open wide and always fold to my 3
: bet. I feel he does not want to play with me for some reasons.
:
: looking at my HD. I exploit him all the time. lol). I think you are behind
: his 4 bet shove range probably 1010+ AQ+. But with the dead money in the pot
: i am never folding here. I don't think squeeze here is bad with JJ at all.
: Poonking is not a short stack nit. His opening range is pretty wide.
| h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 10 怎么对付3bet的确是一个很头疼的问题，就像你说的，小-EV还是大-EV的问题。
还有就是能不能讨论一下：
1. OOP 3bet和IP 3bet的主要区别
2. button, SB, BB的3bet/4bet攻防战
下,
那"
,
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 我这块里只是总结了一些很基本的东西, 稍微会一点牌的人都懂, 就算不懂, 读一下,
: 想一想几分钟也就懂了. 真真的课题的是如何根据对手调整3 bet range. 这就不是
: 一句两句可以总结完的, 其实我自己也在不停的摸索和进步中. 不过这些基础理论和思
: 考方法应该可以帮助我们找到很多答案. 这个课题里最高级的当然是fcf 这种级别的选
: 手, 对一个对手, 在一个session里都要不停得调整3 bet range. 但在NL200 以下, 基
: 本对手都不回adjust 得那么多. 有些人, 你连续3 bet 他4,5 次他还在fold, 在等那"
: perfect hand"来play back. 所以还是简单很多的..
: 在随便讲一个在rush poker 中如何注意自己在别人眼中的3 bet range for on-line
: players only. 在rush poker里, 很多牌别人都没有看到, 但HUD都record了. 所以,
: 你一般在3 bet 的pot 里, 应该考虑自己在HUD里是十么3 bet 的数据来proceed 你的
| | | G********r
发帖数: 666 | 11 This is definitely an excellent post by our own windstorMM. | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 12 i checked his 4bet range, is 1.2%, so qq+ and AK I guess
I got 2:1 odds to call， butguess still not enough for this range
him
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: he just folds to 3 bet a lot. no need to 3 bet him a lot if just you and him
: . i always 3 bet him 8X and he always folds unless he gets a hand. Why 3
: bet 10X when 8X works the same? lol...
:
: pot
: all.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 13 I will check this stat again. But I definitely have seen him reshove wider
than QQ+ AK+. Either way, i am never folding here.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: i checked his 4bet range, is 1.2%, so qq+ and AK I guess
: I got 2:1 odds to call， butguess still not enough for this range
:
: him
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 14 could be right, because 4bet is so rare, 1300 hands might not be enough to
get a real number, if you saw him 4bet with TT+, might be I should call him
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I will check this stat again. But I definitely have seen him reshove wider
: than QQ+ AK+. Either way, i am never folding here.
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 15 我和fcf打HU，他从来不fold我的3-bet
对我flop后的cbet也是80% float
郁闷
下,
那"
,
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 我这块里只是总结了一些很基本的东西, 稍微会一点牌的人都懂, 就算不懂, 读一下,
: 想一想几分钟也就懂了. 真真的课题的是如何根据对手调整3 bet range. 这就不是
: 一句两句可以总结完的, 其实我自己也在不停的摸索和进步中. 不过这些基础理论和思
: 考方法应该可以帮助我们找到很多答案. 这个课题里最高级的当然是fcf 这种级别的选
: 手, 对一个对手, 在一个session里都要不停得调整3 bet range. 但在NL200 以下, 基
: 本对手都不回adjust 得那么多. 有些人, 你连续3 bet 他4,5 次他还在fold, 在等那"
: perfect hand"来play back. 所以还是简单很多的..
: 在随便讲一个在rush poker 中如何注意自己在别人眼中的3 bet range for on-line
: players only. 在rush poker里, 很多牌别人都没有看到, 但HUD都record了. 所以,
: 你一般在3 bet 的pot 里, 应该考虑自己在HUD里是十么3 bet 的数据来proceed 你的
| h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 16 HU totally different beast..
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 我和fcf打HU，他从来不fold我的3-bet
: 对我flop后的cbet也是80% float
: 郁闷
:
: 下,
: 那"
: ,
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 17 poonking is a regular short stacker. I never saw him playing over $50 on the
table.
when he 4-bet , you are mostly behind with JJs. Stay true for most $40 min
buyin regulars. | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 18 really?
============================
Full Tilt Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
Skilgannon1 (SB): $109.60
mofantex (BB): $57.50
jkpjkp16 (UTG): $83.30
ultimatebluff2 (UTG+1): $37.80
Hero (UTG+2): $169.85
Rodney Mullen9 (MP1): $54.50
Babba99 (MP2): $261.85
MWMWMWMW (CO): $42.40
Poonking (BTN): $55.75
Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG+2 with Jh 7c
6 folds, Poonking raises to $3, 1 fold, mofantex raises to $9.50, Poonking
raises to $55.75, mofantex calls $46.25
Flop: ($112.00) 3c Td Kd (2 players)
Turn: ($112.00) Ah (2 players)
River: ($112.00) Kh (2 players)
Final Pot: $112.00
mofantex shows 4c 4d
Poonking shows 7h 7d
Poonking wins $109.00
(Rake: $3.00)
========================
Full Tilt Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
Poonking (CO): $52.00
sbfoosball (BTN): $100.00
Ablazer77 (SB): $147.45
llGotPhshll (BB): $135.15
Kuchham (UTG): $161.45
Tymph Ole (UTG+1): $95.45
john1226 (UTG+2): $100.00
Hero (MP1): $100.00
Slavon82 (MP2): $38.00
Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is MP1 with 5c Th
5 folds, Poonking raises to $3, 1 fold, Ablazer77 calls $2.50, llGotPhshll raises to $12, Poonking raises to $52, 1 fold, llGotPhshll calls $40
Flop: ($107.00) 4c 9d 4s (2 players)
Turn: ($107.00) 8s (2 players)
River: ($107.00) 7s (2 players)
Final Pot: $107.00
Poonking shows 9c Kc
llGotPhshll shows Kh As
Poonking wins $104.00
(Rake: $3.00)
==================================
Full Tilt Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
Hero (UTG+2): $187.30
AnthonyCarney86 (MP1): $109.75
DownfallFA (MP2): $116.45
A bigbang A (CO): $186.45
Blank2001 (BTN): $107.75
missk8585 (SB): $79.55
Poonking (BB): $40.00
hally1987 (UTG): $130.30
3dgar Po3 (UTG+1): $107.40
Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG+2 with Qs 4h
4 folds, DownfallFA raises to $3, 1 fold, Blank2001 calls $3, missk8585 calls $2.50, Poonking raises to $40, 2 folds, missk8585 calls $37
Flop: ($86.00) 4c Ac 3d (2 players)
Turn: ($86.00) 7c (2 players)
River: ($86.00) 8d (2 players)
Final Pot: $86.00
missk8585 shows 9d 9c
Poonking shows Ts Qh
missk8585 wins $83.00
(Rake: $3.00)
==================
Need I say more?
the
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: poonking is a regular short stacker. I never saw him playing over $50 on the
: table.
: when he 4-bet , you are mostly behind with JJs. Stay true for most $40 min
: buyin regulars.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 19 Key to play against this type of short stack? Play top of the range(JJ is definitely top of the range) and NEVER FOLD AND ALWAYS PUT IN THE LAST BET FIRST.
Like this hand, I would shove with all my 3 bet range here.
=======================================
Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
SB: $165.60
BB: $141.40
UTG: $135.20
UTG+1: $197.30
UTG+2: $39.05
MP1: $98.00
Hero (MP2): $126.55
CO: $100.50
BTN: $43.80
Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is MP2 with Kd Qd
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 4 folds, UTG+2 calls $6
Flop: ($17.50) 7s 8h Qs (2 players)
UTG+2 bets $2, Hero raises to $118.55 all in, UTG+2 folds
Final Pot: $21.50
Hero wins $20.45
(Rake: $1.05)
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: really?
: ============================
: Full Tilt Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
: Skilgannon1 (SB): $109.60
: mofantex (BB): $57.50
: jkpjkp16 (UTG): $83.30
: ultimatebluff2 (UTG+1): $37.80
: Hero (UTG+2): $169.85
: Rodney Mullen9 (MP1): $54.50
: Babba99 (MP2): $261.85
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 20 Are you sure he is not on tilt playing those hands? :)
As far as I can remember, I played two hands agaist him. AQs and AKs 3-bet
him and he shoved with $40. Both time he got the goods, one time he had QQs
, the other had KK.
I didn't seem him play out of line like this.
But I will say most the short stacker play really premium hands so I won't
play them until I really got a strong hand.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: really?
: ============================
: Full Tilt Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
: Skilgannon1 (SB): $109.60
: mofantex (BB): $57.50
: jkpjkp16 (UTG): $83.30
: ultimatebluff2 (UTG+1): $37.80
: Hero (UTG+2): $169.85
: Rodney Mullen9 (MP1): $54.50
: Babba99 (MP2): $261.85
| | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 21 Actually i have more hand like this. too tired to post them all.. lol..
BTW JJ is a premium hand.. in fact top 5 hands~~~
QQs
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: Are you sure he is not on tilt playing those hands? :)
: As far as I can remember, I played two hands agaist him. AQs and AKs 3-bet
: him and he shoved with $40. Both time he got the goods, one time he had QQs
: , the other had KK.
: I didn't seem him play out of line like this.
: But I will say most the short stacker play really premium hands so I won't
: play them until I really got a strong hand.
| h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 22 这哥们小对子都是直接搞到50啊，lol。
更强的牌也是？还是4bet 2.5x之类的？
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: really?
: ============================
: Full Tilt Poker $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
: Skilgannon1 (SB): $109.60
: mofantex (BB): $57.50
: jkpjkp16 (UTG): $83.30
: ultimatebluff2 (UTG+1): $37.80
: Hero (UTG+2): $169.85
: Rodney Mullen9 (MP1): $54.50
: Babba99 (MP2): $261.85
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 23 好像也是shove..
【在 h*******s 的大作中提到】
: 这哥们小对子都是直接搞到50啊，lol。
: 更强的牌也是？还是4bet 2.5x之类的？
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