S*********e
发帖数: 865 | 1 一个月前在local casino玩的。 1/2，我400多chips在bb。
我左边一家刚刚输了一个大pot，还剩300多，straddle 5， 每个人都知道他要raise，
都fold了，sb call，有300多。我bb call with TcJc。左边那家和sb都还挺稳，不是
maniac。
果然左边一家raise到20. sb和我都call。
flop Jh2c5c，sb check，我check，左手 bet 50. looks a cbet。
sb reraise到100，我很纠结，sb play it like a set or A high flush draw。
遇上set我大概30%，遇到A high flush 我outs就很少了，尤其后面还有一家。
我犹豫了很久fold了。 左边instant all in， sb call。左边show KJ，右边show AJ，
都没有clubs。
这把我flop lead out是不是更好些？原来的计划是 如果sb fold， 我可以check/
raise initial raiser。sb如果call，我可以选择call或者all in。但是sb reraise，
让我觉得可能odds不太对了。大家什么意见。 |
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 2 SB's raising size wants to get a call. he wouldn't give u, bb and mid guy,
much credit for such a monster hand most of time, so he's isolating u out at
the same time too.
the "brave" me tells me to call here and shove on turn, hit or not, you got
enough chips for a pot size shove. if they get in here, you still have
options.
ace high flush draw? not in this situation, so we got to play TcJc like nut
flush draw.
AJ，
【在 S*********e 的大作中提到】
: 一个月前在local casino玩的。 1/2，我400多chips在bb。
: 我左边一家刚刚输了一个大pot，还剩300多，straddle 5， 每个人都知道他要raise，
: 都fold了，sb call，有300多。我bb call with TcJc。左边那家和sb都还挺稳，不是
: maniac。
: 果然左边一家raise到20. sb和我都call。
: flop Jh2c5c，sb check，我check，左手 bet 50. looks a cbet。
: sb reraise到100，我很纠结，sb play it like a set or A high flush draw。
: 遇上set我大概30%，遇到A high flush 我outs就很少了，尤其后面还有一家。
: 我犹豫了很久fold了。 左边instant all in， sb call。左边show KJ，右边show AJ，
: 都没有clubs。
|
S*********e
发帖数: 865 | 3 haha,我就是bb。 有道理，我是觉得与其在这里call 100不如直接shove，对我来说像
是fold or shove。我是觉得如果我lead out，左边那家call 或者 reraise，右边会
make一个tough decision，我信息就多了，不像这样信息太少。 |
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 4 lead out主要也就是build pot，多数情况SB就跑了，不管MP是call是raise，你自己
hit了一个J，又拿了两个clubs，它们要成够强继续的牌很难。
MP是属于打压straddle的气势，又可能出于on tilt，所以大大减少强牌的可能。
mid flush draw撞见higher flush draw是没折的事，TcJc这样的，比5c6c强硬多了，
遇大draw的概率也小很多，所以你忧心flopped set比这靠谱。但是以它们两的位置和
preflop action来看，概率其实也很小，太偶然了。
此外，1/2NL这样的，俺觉得flopped set至少slow play一条街的可能性非常大。
【在 S*********e 的大作中提到】
: haha,我就是bb。 有道理，我是觉得与其在这里call 100不如直接shove，对我来说像
: 是fold or shove。我是觉得如果我lead out，左边那家call 或者 reraise，右边会
: make一个tough decision，我信息就多了，不像这样信息太少。
|
S*********e
发帖数: 865 | 5 这么说倒是，可以先不考虑sb 有 flush draw。
主要纠结在如果我lead out，那么我是最后一家action，如果他们raise，reraise很凶，
我也不怕，最好三家all in，我flush draw odds是对的。
sb rerasie后，我在中间action，万一straddle跑了，就我和sb play，他已经commit
了1/3的chips，基本都走不了。
这时候就怕遇set，对AJ似乎也就一半一半。
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: lead out主要也就是build pot，多数情况SB就跑了，不管MP是call是raise，你自己
: hit了一个J，又拿了两个clubs，它们要成够强继续的牌很难。
: MP是属于打压straddle的气势，又可能出于on tilt，所以大大减少强牌的可能。
: mid flush draw撞见higher flush draw是没折的事，TcJc这样的，比5c6c强硬多了，
: 遇大draw的概率也小很多，所以你忧心flopped set比这靠谱。但是以它们两的位置和
: preflop action来看，概率其实也很小，太偶然了。
: 此外，1/2NL这样的，俺觉得flopped set至少slow play一条街的可能性非常大。
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 6 所以俺觉得可能call最好，你还剩300多，turn上还有作为。
听听别人的意见。
凶，
commit
【在 S*********e 的大作中提到】
: 这么说倒是，可以先不考虑sb 有 flush draw。
: 主要纠结在如果我lead out，那么我是最后一家action，如果他们raise，reraise很凶，
: 我也不怕，最好三家all in，我flush draw odds是对的。
: sb rerasie后，我在中间action，万一straddle跑了，就我和sb play，他已经commit
: 了1/3的chips，基本都走不了。
: 这时候就怕遇set，对AJ似乎也就一半一半。
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 7 I think this is a fold on the flop unless the raiser has the habbit of raise/fold with shit. |
c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 8 I think it is a good fold. A pair with a flush draw is a great hand only
if
you have fold equity. But it is not so good if you know for sure that ppl
will call you -- in which case you will be slightly behind at the very
best.
I dont think every monster draw should be played aggressively. It really
depends on the situation. For example, I do think that that Fryking's AKs
12 out nut draw hand should be played aggressively, because he had lots of
fold
equity. On the JT9 board his shove could likely fold leading hand like AJ,
AT. His shove might even fold QJ. This is unlike your case, where villains
are pot committed and wont fold for sure. You shove will just be a pure
gamble. And you might be drawing slim if sb got a bigger flush draw. |
M********g
发帖数: 717 | 9 Usually it is a fold because i agree that we should not always play this
kind of hand too aggressively. But here I think it is a shove after sb
raised.
It is all about table dynamics. As you described, utg is possibly on tilt/
loose and sb, just like you, prepared to exploit it. So range-wise, they
could probably on the lower end of the bet/raise range. Especially after sb
raised and you shoved, utg would have to fold if he is not too on tilt. And
sb had a decent percentage of folding chance since you were not the one he
was supposed to be up against. So you got fair folding equity. If he had a
larger flush draw, since you had a pair, it was about 50/50, you were not
drawing thin. You only night mare was agaist one set plus larger fd. But
that was not much weight on the decision.
I like shoving here because this also balanced my play. They would be more
likely to call my raise/shove when they saw my hand on that spot.
AJ，
【在 S*********e 的大作中提到】
: 一个月前在local casino玩的。 1/2，我400多chips在bb。
: 我左边一家刚刚输了一个大pot，还剩300多，straddle 5， 每个人都知道他要raise，
: 都fold了，sb call，有300多。我bb call with TcJc。左边那家和sb都还挺稳，不是
: maniac。
: 果然左边一家raise到20. sb和我都call。
: flop Jh2c5c，sb check，我check，左手 bet 50. looks a cbet。
: sb reraise到100，我很纠结，sb play it like a set or A high flush draw。
: 遇上set我大概30%，遇到A high flush 我outs就很少了，尤其后面还有一家。
: 我犹豫了很久fold了。 左边instant all in， sb call。左边show KJ，右边show AJ，
: 都没有clubs。
|
p**********1
发帖数: 1458 | 10 我也觉得像老大说的那样，sb raise很像iso play。这里遇到nut flush draw的机会很
少。
其实这里donk small是一个选择。目的是把sb放到一个tough spot，因为我们donk 15~
20的话，MP on tilt又是prf raiser，很大可能raise，那么sb有什么牌就基本明了。
多数情况sb跑了，我们可以call一下，转牌决定fold/stack off（flush or a ten)。
如果sb shove，我们snap fold，因为我们肯定落后，而且MP绝大多数情况会跑掉的。
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: lead out主要也就是build pot，多数情况SB就跑了，不管MP是call是raise，你自己
: hit了一个J，又拿了两个clubs，它们要成够强继续的牌很难。
: MP是属于打压straddle的气势，又可能出于on tilt，所以大大减少强牌的可能。
: mid flush draw撞见higher flush draw是没折的事，TcJc这样的，比5c6c强硬多了，
: 遇大draw的概率也小很多，所以你忧心flopped set比这靠谱。但是以它们两的位置和
: preflop action来看，概率其实也很小，太偶然了。
: 此外，1/2NL这样的，俺觉得flopped set至少slow play一条街的可能性非常大。
|
D*****A
发帖数: 551 | 11 遇到过类似情况。在没有看清对手的情况下，flop 的时候就push all in了。然后，后
面的人好像看得很透似的call。
结果，flop/river no straight, no flush.死得很惨。 |
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 12 When we have a big draw, we do not have always play it fast. It really
depends what is your read on your opponent. If we are against a bigger made
hand and another guy in the pot with higher flush draw, we are in a really
bad shape.
Remember in last year's million $ cash game, a fold by Phil Ivey is very
impresssive. It was a limp pot and Phil Ivey had a SC. Zigmund led out
with top air from SB and Peter Jetten(a very good player from Canada)
raised on BB, action to Ivey. Ivey had an open ended straight draw and flush
draw, yeah. 15 outs draw. We all know Ivey is a very aggressive player and
I expected him come on the top with such a monster draw. But he studied a
while and folded on the flop. He thought Zigmund may have a higher flush
draw and Peter Jetter may have a set. In fact, Peter Jetten did have a set
and Ivey got no fold equality if he raised.
【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: I think it is a good fold. A pair with a flush draw is a great hand only
: if
: you have fold equity. But it is not so good if you know for sure that ppl
: will call you -- in which case you will be slightly behind at the very
: best.
: I dont think every monster draw should be played aggressively. It really
: depends on the situation. For example, I do think that that Fryking's AKs
: 12 out nut draw hand should be played aggressively, because he had lots of
: fold
: equity. On the JT9 board his shove could likely fold leading hand like AJ,
|
H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDofJ50Mvds&feature=related
6:15-7:35
Really impressive fold. I'd just donk shove there...
made
very
flush
and
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: When we have a big draw, we do not have always play it fast. It really
: depends what is your read on your opponent. If we are against a bigger made
: hand and another guy in the pot with higher flush draw, we are in a really
: bad shape.
:
: Remember in last year's million $ cash game, a fold by Phil Ivey is very
: impresssive. It was a limp pot and Phil Ivey had a SC. Zigmund led out
: with top air from SB and Peter Jetten(a very good player from Canada)
: raised on BB, action to Ivey. Ivey had an open ended straight draw and flush
: draw, yeah. 15 outs draw. We all know Ivey is a very aggressive player and
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 14 oh.there was a raise preflop . my bad. not big deal anyway.
that is why he is the best in the world. His aggression is selective. He
is not afraid to gamble there ,but he figured out he could be in bad shape
and let it go.
【在 H****r 的大作中提到】
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDofJ50Mvds&feature=related
: 6:15-7:35
: Really impressive fold. I'd just donk shove there...
:
: made
: very
: flush
: and
|
