W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 1 好久不逛2+2 了， 昨天去看到个有意思的。大家怎么看？call, fold?
====================
Some background info first:
it's a live 10/20 nlhe game with no cap. table is deep. I just say down
about 2 orbits ago with 13k and haven't played a single hand yet.
Villan in this hand is unknown and hasn't played in the past town orbits
either and he has about the same stack.
Hero: KsKh and raises to 80
Villan: calls 80
4 more guys call.
Flop ($480): KdQcQh
Hero: bets $120
Villan quickly calls $120
Everyone else folds
Turn($720): Td
Hero: check
Villan: bets $450
Hero cals $450
River ($1620) Jd
Hero: checks
Villan thinks for about a good long 1 min and bets $1300
Hero check/raises to $4000
Villain tanks for another good long minute and ships his remaining 12k ish
stack.....
I know I flopped top boat, so don't tell me "you have top boat, you only
lose to 3 combo of hands, fist pump and call"
Theoretically, unknown villain without history can't be bluffing here right?
Seems like I'm not beating any of his value jamming range except for two
combos of KQ which I'm not even sure if he should in theory.
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8 |
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | 2 通常对于UNKNOWN PLAYER，我这里不可能FOLD。我一般不给对手太多CREDIT的，除非他
证明了我必须给他CREDIT。不过STACK这么深，700BB，这个决定也太可怕了吧。按POT
ODDS和RANGE分析肯定得CALL了，谁知道他会不会QJ,QT也这么打。如果他不是作秀，那
他就不是AdQd。QQ也不像，这么DEEP，PREFLOP 还不3-BET IP？ |
w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 3 Fold.
Hero's river action shows hero was at least top boat.
1.Villan's river 1300 bet shows he was at least a boat.
2.Hero's river check/reraise shows he was at least top boat.So hero's card
could be KQ,KK,AdQd,Qd9d.
If Villan had KQ, he would only call, assuming Villan is a normal player. |
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | 4 没觉得HERO的RANGE定死了。RIVER是很好的 CHECK-RAISE BLUFF的机会，KJ,KT这么打
就漂亮了，很有可能把弱的BOAT赶走。不过现场估计实打实的多一点吧，网上NL2000的
LEVEL能够做出这种MOVE。
【在 w***w 的大作中提到】
: Fold.
: Hero's river action shows hero was at least top boat.
: 1.Villan's river 1300 bet shows he was at least a boat.
: 2.Hero's river check/reraise shows he was at least top boat.So hero's card
: could be KQ,KK,AdQd,Qd9d.
: If Villan had KQ, he would only call, assuming Villan is a normal player.
|
g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 5 Beauty of the deep stake playing.Good discussion.
I dont quite understand the turn play. Without position, the Td most likely
helps the Villan or at lease does not help OP, why just check/call? Having
such a deep stack with this monster hand and facing Villan's deep stake is
just golden opportunity on the turn to max the value. Worrying about the QQ
on the turn is not right for sure.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 好久不逛2+2 了， 昨天去看到个有意思的。大家怎么看？call, fold?
: ====================
: Some background info first:
: it's a live 10/20 nlhe game with no cap. table is deep. I just say down
: about 2 orbits ago with 13k and haven't played a single hand yet.
: Villan in this hand is unknown and hasn't played in the past town orbits
: either and he has about the same stack.
: Hero: KsKh and raises to 80
: Villan: calls 80
: 4 more guys call.
|
w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 6 人家可以call。用2700赌7000.
我打的live 1/2，这种情况没人敢bluff a boat。
大多数players都不能确定hero会是top boat.
【在 q****8 的大作中提到】
: 没觉得HERO的RANGE定死了。RIVER是很好的 CHECK-RAISE BLUFF的机会，KJ,KT这么打
: 就漂亮了，很有可能把弱的BOAT赶走。不过现场估计实打实的多一点吧，网上NL2000的
: LEVEL能够做出这种MOVE。
|
j**y
发帖数: 7014 | 7 To me, Hero's play is not consistent.
Preflop, total 6 ppl, 480+ pot
Flop, only bet 120 (total pot 720+), no flush draw
turn, check call 450, still too weak IMHO (total pot 1620+).
river, check raise 1300 bet, I am not sure he shows enough strength of his h
and
If he can play this level with reasonable bankroll, then he should call (再次
声明我是驴）
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 好久不逛2+2 了， 昨天去看到个有意思的。大家怎么看？call, fold?
: ====================
: Some background info first:
: it's a live 10/20 nlhe game with no cap. table is deep. I just say down
: about 2 orbits ago with 13k and haven't played a single hand yet.
: Villan in this hand is unknown and hasn't played in the past town orbits
: either and he has about the same stack.
: Hero: KsKh and raises to 80
: Villan: calls 80
: 4 more guys call.
|
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | 8 没错，在1/2这样打死的快。我刚才说的这种MOVE只能对大场的THINKING PLAYER才行。
【在 w***w 的大作中提到】
: 人家可以call。用2700赌7000.
: 我打的live 1/2，这种情况没人敢bluff a boat。
: 大多数players都不能确定hero会是top boat.
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 9 仔细看完了整个post。
哥不知道那个地方10/20级别整体philosophy是什么。
但是，楼主那样的line，总让哥觉得菊花里面某处痒痒，但却挠不着。可能他这个line
在他的这个case里能够最大化他的value吧
没看楼主post结果之前，哥觉得哥会river crying call，看了楼主公布结果之后，哥
觉得哥大概可能还是会crying call吧，lol
如果大家都是very solid player，并且不是那么sick。按照楼主flop和turn的line，
哥大概会check/shove river，这样能确保更多的组合留下来。
通常哥愿意，turn bet/call，river bet/call in most cases。
当然，如果场景换成低技术级别game的话，没有super read，无论如何都是要commit的。 |
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | 10 刚才没注意，原来PREFLOP有6个人啊，他SIZE是有问题，我会BET 280左右，比平时的
SIZE小一点，但也不能小到120。
h
再次
【在 j**y 的大作中提到】
: To me, Hero's play is not consistent.
: Preflop, total 6 ppl, 480+ pot
: Flop, only bet 120 (total pot 720+), no flush draw
: turn, check call 450, still too weak IMHO (total pot 1620+).
: river, check raise 1300 bet, I am not sure he shows enough strength of his h
: and
: If he can play this level with reasonable bankroll, then he should call (再次
: 声明我是驴）
|
|
|
l*******r
发帖数: 328 | 11 there is really one hand that beats him, which is 9dQd. ip played weak on
flop and turn. so if villain could not put ip on kq or kk, he would think
his kq or kj is the best hand and shove. It should be a call.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 好久不逛2+2 了， 昨天去看到个有意思的。大家怎么看？call, fold?
: ====================
: Some background info first:
: it's a live 10/20 nlhe game with no cap. table is deep. I just say down
: about 2 orbits ago with 13k and haven't played a single hand yet.
: Villan in this hand is unknown and hasn't played in the past town orbits
: either and he has about the same stack.
: Hero: KsKh and raises to 80
: Villan: calls 80
: 4 more guys call.
|
w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 12 我的意思是如果Villan认为hero是bluff，他call就行了。为什么要allin？
是要以bluff对bluff？如果Villan拿KQ或更小的牌，allin明显就是overplay。
【在 q****8 的大作中提到】
: 没错，在1/2这样打死的快。我刚才说的这种MOVE只能对大场的THINKING PLAYER才行。
|
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | 13 应该是平CALL就可以了。但我们对VILLIAN一无所知，说不定比较FISH也有可能，拿到
个BOAT就觉得是NUTS。如果两个都是SOLID PLAYER，你的分析都正确。但一般对于
UNKNOWN PLAYER，我会留出20%的RANGE比例假设他是FISH或者PLAY WILD。这可能是个
人打牌的经历不同所以对牌的分析也不尽相同吧。
其实我觉得HERO也比较菜，我肯定不会用他的LINE对一个UNKNOWN PLAYER，这条LINE如
果对MED STRENGTH HANDS会损失很多VALUE。
【在 w***w 的大作中提到】
: 我的意思是如果Villan认为hero是bluff，他call就行了。为什么要allin？
: 是要以bluff对bluff？如果Villan拿KQ或更小的牌，allin明显就是overplay。
|
T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 14 Idiot thinking too much.
If Villian got him beat, mostly likely villian will try to raise the turn to
build the pot. Unless villian slowing play pocket QQs, then again, chance
are slim villian just smooth call a big pair preflop while several player
behind. |
T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 15 So you think a boat is just a bluff catcher in this case?
Maybe 10/20 player are all super nit
【在 w***w 的大作中提到】
: 我的意思是如果Villan认为hero是bluff，他call就行了。为什么要allin？
: 是要以bluff对bluff？如果Villan拿KQ或更小的牌，allin明显就是overplay。
|
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | 16 Hero check call on turn.
to
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: Idiot thinking too much.
: If Villian got him beat, mostly likely villian will try to raise the turn to
: build the pot. Unless villian slowing play pocket QQs, then again, chance
: are slim villian just smooth call a big pair preflop while several player
: behind.
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 17 发现D神对菊花总有特别得兴趣哈。。 为啥呢？
看原贴了？
line
的。
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: 仔细看完了整个post。
: 哥不知道那个地方10/20级别整体philosophy是什么。
: 但是，楼主那样的line，总让哥觉得菊花里面某处痒痒，但却挠不着。可能他这个line
: 在他的这个case里能够最大化他的value吧
: 没看楼主post结果之前，哥觉得哥会river crying call，看了楼主公布结果之后，哥
: 觉得哥大概可能还是会crying call吧，lol
: 如果大家都是very solid player，并且不是那么sick。按照楼主flop和turn的line，
: 哥大概会check/shove river，这样能确保更多的组合留下来。
: 通常哥愿意，turn bet/call，river bet/call in most cases。
: 当然，如果场景换成低技术级别game的话，没有super read，无论如何都是要commit的。
|
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | |
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 19 发原帖了， 大家自己爬楼吧。
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19/high-stakes-pl-nl/flopped-
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 q****8 的大作中提到】
: 结果是啥啊？这里也公布一下吧。
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 20
是，看原帖了。
哥比较赞同qing的，slow play lose too much value，river的line不够补回来，但是
对于未知对手的话，哥倾向于crying call。
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 发现D神对菊花总有特别得兴趣哈。。 为啥呢？
: 看原贴了？
:
: line
: 的。
|
|
|
w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 21 Hero fold KK.
Villan showed AdQd. |
j*******g
发帖数: 331 | 22 I think this is the hand hero played it wrong, but perfectly saved him some
money, I don't think someone can fold set with A kicker after flop, or fold
the royal flush draw at the turn, in fact, I think hero is right to check on
the river, but he should raise over pot size over villain's bet. I won't
make the bet at the turn if I have AQd, I would probably fold at the turn if
facing a very high raise, but very unlikely. All the time I played live
poker, I have never even seen a straight flush, in fact, the largest hand I
saw is quads 4 and quads 2, I see each a couple of times. |
c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 23 This kind of pointless 2plus2 posts are for nothing but ego. It reminded me
of that idiot who folded quads at last year's one million buyin game. Poker
is not a game for hero fold, unless there is a TV broadcast and you want to
look like a genius. |
