p****0
发帖数: 611 | 1 2/5 full ring table. Most players have deep stack.
Hero has about 500. Hero at BB hold QQ. 5 limpers. Hero raised to 35. 5
callers including SB and BTN. BTN has about 1700.
Flop (175) 368r, Hero led out 70. 3 callers. BTN tank a while and re-
raised to 400.
What shall the Hero do?
In the end, all fold to BTN on the flop. But, can the BTN's move viewed to
be polarized? If it is polarized move, shall the hero call or fold? | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 2 polarize 也分 40% 60% or 20% 80%.
对手如果不是经常out of line. 我会fold. 特别是如果3个caller 里有几个stack 也
比较深，那么他bluff 的可能性更小。 | p****0
发帖数: 611 | 3 BTN can make mixed move. And if he saw the weakness of other players, he
will put pressure on them. The other 3 callers also had deep stack. Two
callers are loose. One caller is TAG. Hero's immage is also mixed. Hero
did c-bet on the flop quite often. I'm leading to believe he was bluffing.
But didn't have guts to call.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: polarize 也分 40% 60% or 20% 80%.
: 对手如果不是经常out of line. 我会fold. 特别是如果3个caller 里有几个stack 也
: 比较深，那么他bluff 的可能性更小。
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 4 you can not catch every bluff. if they value more often than bluff, which
should be true for most tight players, it is always correct to lay down
especially in a multiway pot in live game. When people make bigger than
usual raises, unless you have special read you would rather believe they
have it than being suspcioius that they are bluffing. Over long term vs
players without much history, i think this approach is mostly optimal.
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: BTN can make mixed move. And if he saw the weakness of other players, he
: will put pressure on them. The other 3 callers also had deep stack. Two
: callers are loose. One caller is TAG. Hero's immage is also mixed. Hero
: did c-bet on the flop quite often. I'm leading to believe he was bluffing.
: But didn't have guts to call.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 5 Poker is never about who bluffs the most or who catch the most bluffs or
even who wins the pot most often. it is about who wins more $$ over very
very long period of time.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: you can not catch every bluff. if they value more often than bluff, which
: should be true for most tight players, it is always correct to lay down
: especially in a multiway pot in live game. When people make bigger than
: usual raises, unless you have special read you would rather believe they
: have it than being suspcioius that they are bluffing. Over long term vs
: players without much history, i think this approach is mostly optimal.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 6 with 4 callers behind, i tend to check this flop and see the action first.
$70 into $210 pot? only to sweeten it.
even BTN doesn't shove (just call) here, with $400 stack, OOP on the
turn, ~$660 pot, well, ...
to
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: 2/5 full ring table. Most players have deep stack.
: Hero has about 500. Hero at BB hold QQ. 5 limpers. Hero raised to 35. 5
: callers including SB and BTN. BTN has about 1700.
: Flop (175) 368r, Hero led out 70. 3 callers. BTN tank a while and re-
: raised to 400.
: What shall the Hero do?
: In the end, all fold to BTN on the flop. But, can the BTN's move viewed to
: be polarized? If it is polarized move, shall the hero call or fold?
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 7 fold.
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: BTN can make mixed move. And if he saw the weakness of other players, he
: will put pressure on them. The other 3 callers also had deep stack. Two
: callers are loose. One caller is TAG. Hero's immage is also mixed. Hero
: did c-bet on the flop quite often. I'm leading to believe he was bluffing.
: But didn't have guts to call.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 8 其实Spr wise, 这个call down 也没错。 不过我一直觉得用SPR 在multiway pot 里
做决定不管用的。 flop bet 有点weak. 至少100吧。
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: with 4 callers behind, i tend to check this flop and see the action first.
: $70 into $210 pot? only to sweeten it.
: even BTN doesn't shove (just call) here, with $400 stack, OOP on the
: turn, ~$660 pot, well, ...
:
: to
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 9 position is indeed everything, lol.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 其实Spr wise, 这个call down 也没错。 不过我一直觉得用SPR 在multiway pot 里
: 做决定不管用的。 flop bet 有点weak. 至少100吧。
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
| z******n
发帖数: 8851 | 10 On the flop, i would make at least 2/3 pot or pot sized bet. Your bet was
too weak, BTN may think you had two big cards, and reraise even with top
pair on the flop.
Back to your queston, I would call. What BTN will have? a set or bluff is
unlikely, 68 for two pairs is possible, but most of his holding range you
can beat. | | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 11 flop bet 太小了。 Make me want to reshove all in. it is only 100 bb. | b*****t
发帖数: 52 | 12 Preflop raise at least 10-12 BB adjust based on how many caller.
Post flop raise 70 too small to push anyone out and too small to tell if btn
is bluffing with a draw or have a set.
I say he call if he has a set and push if he is on draw.
to
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: 2/5 full ring table. Most players have deep stack.
: Hero has about 500. Hero at BB hold QQ. 5 limpers. Hero raised to 35. 5
: callers including SB and BTN. BTN has about 1700.
: Flop (175) 368r, Hero led out 70. 3 callers. BTN tank a while and re-
: raised to 400.
: What shall the Hero do?
: In the end, all fold to BTN on the flop. But, can the BTN's move viewed to
: be polarized? If it is polarized move, shall the hero call or fold?
| m******1
发帖数: 715 | 13 bubble...if button is capable of bluff / squeeze, then this can be one... | p****0
发帖数: 611 | 14 How do you get this?
I was thinking if he had a set, he will call and get more value later. Two
pair is unlikely since he called preflop.
In fact, BTN showed his hand after everybody fold. He hold QhTh.
He saw my bet as weak, and the other 3 callers as weak too. So he fired at
position. But my hand was not that bad. I should call from my instant
feeling. But didn't run good that night. So I just fold.
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 m******1 的大作中提到】
: bubble...if button is capable of bluff / squeeze, then this can be one...
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 15 long time, man!!!
【在 m******1 的大作中提到】
: bubble...if button is capable of bluff / squeeze, then this can be one...
| m******1
发帖数: 715 | 16 Just as you said, he saw your bet is weak, so he put you on two over card (
AK or AQ, etc.). And his bet is big enough to discourage any chaser. | m******1
发帖数: 715 | 17 Your majesty :)
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: long time, man!!!
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 18 I think you guys all have a misconception of flop bet size .
Flop bet $100 or $70 doesn't mean anything. Low stake live poker have a
different bet size structure than online game. For example, online preflop
raise usually is 3-4bb, and yet in the live poker, you often see people
raise 5-7bb preflop, in a action table, sometimes ppl even 9bb-10bb preflop,
creating a pot which is very big already, even before the flop.
In OP's case, from online player's perspective, he only bet 1/3 of the flop,
seemed indicating a weak hand, however, within the context, he bet 70 into
a 210 bet, thus he already committed almost 20% of his stack to the pot, any
further round of betting will automatically make him commit the whole stack
to the pot, while playing OOP. That indicates a certain level of his hand
strength, as a matter of fact, he was holding a pretty decent hand against
this flop. So betting size is one side of story, but effective stack to pot
ratio is another side of story and sometimes I think it is a more important
factor to decide people's hand strength and my own approaches.
I kind agree OP's play in this hand. OOP playing a big pair against 5 limps,
OP tried a big raise to chase out more ppl. Unfortunately, this seems a
loose table and all five players called. Flop 70 is an OK bet. It is a
testing bet against 5 players, means to only chase out ppl who completely
missed the flop. But really what is the difference between betting 70 and
100 in a loose table? Probably not that much. With preflop pot that big, ppl
hit the flop will still stick around for 100 for the potential implied odds
and winning a big pot, and ppl missed the flop will fold anyway.
I am OK with the fold as well. With my betting of $70 and get 3 callers, it
is bad enough with an overpair, not to mention you get big action from
button. You can't just called the bet but you have to all-in if you think
you have him beat. But really in live game ppl just not that often to make
moves in multi-way pot. You only committed 20% of stack to the pot,which is
a relatively
easy fold while only lost a small portion of your stack. Just think of this
way, next time you have a hand close to nuts, will you prefer you still have
a near full stack in front of you or you playing with re-buy money with a
big hole to fill?
Take MM's suggestion with a grain of salt. Often time he gave a very
rational analysis of the hands, but when he include a lot of "shove" in his
post,take it for what it is. Sometimes he just playful or joking. When
fishes shoved big on him or he shoved on fishes, majority of time he has
something we called "nuts" or "very strong hand", based on hand history he
post. But anyway, it is your money, make good decision on it. Your purpose
of playing
poker should be winning money not outplaying somebody. Well, unless you have
a lot of money and want to give it away being a "Tom durrr Dwan", in that
case, PM me and let us setup a private game. I promise letting you win face
and you can give your money to me. | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 19 同意。 shove does not work. always gets fish called. FXXK. labeled him as
"fish" afterwards to get even
============================================
Merge $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players -
MP2: $25.87
Hero (CO): $53.63
BTN: $116.12
SB: $88.79
BB: $50.00
UTG: $63.77
UTG+1: $18.40
MP1: $93.47
Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with Ad Ks
2 folds, MP1 raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5, 3 folds, MP1 calls
$3.50
Flop: ($10.75) Jd 7h 5d (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $7.00, MP1 raises to $16.50, Hero calls $9.50
Turn: ($43.75) 5c (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $32.13, MP1 calls $32.13
River: ($108.01) Td (2 players)
Final Pot: $108.01
Hero shows Ad Ks
MP1 shows Jh Ah
MP1 wins $104.01
(Rake: $4.00)
preflop,
flop,
into
any
stack
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: I think you guys all have a misconception of flop bet size .
: Flop bet $100 or $70 doesn't mean anything. Low stake live poker have a
: different bet size structure than online game. For example, online preflop
: raise usually is 3-4bb, and yet in the live poker, you often see people
: raise 5-7bb preflop, in a action table, sometimes ppl even 9bb-10bb preflop,
: creating a pot which is very big already, even before the flop.
: In OP's case, from online player's perspective, he only bet 1/3 of the flop,
: seemed indicating a weak hand, however, within the context, he bet 70 into
: a 210 bet, thus he already committed almost 20% of his stack to the pot, any
: further round of betting will automatically make him commit the whole stack
| w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 20 BTN was not bluffing.
I think he got something like a set and see the board as dangerous, so raise
big to push people out.
In live poker people bluff much less because there are more donks, also
bluff usually involve in small pot since players involved in big pot usually
have strong hands.
As I myself did a lot bluffs, I may bluff if only hero is in pot, but would
not dare to bluff 4 players.
Also I would bluff on turn rather than flop.( On turn you get better
information about the strength of opponent's hands, and players on draw are
easier to fold.)
If one bluff and his opponent fold, does it prove that his bluff is good or
+EV? It is not so simple.
Since bluff involves risking big amount to get small amount,one need to
bluff successfully 7 or 8 out of 10 to be +EV,so he will need higher
probability.
So bluffing one player is risky, bluffing 4 is insane. | | | M********g
发帖数: 717 | 21 I think this is a shove here.
Button has no logically very strong hands. If hero's position is better and
it is heads up when he raises at the flop, it is a snap shove because hero's
stack is too shallow.
My only concern is the guys flat calling. Those guys could have hands that
made hero drawing very thin. But after those multiple $70 calling, the pot
is already sweetened enough with regarding to hero's shallow stack.
Maybe my approach carries too much variance, but I think it is slightly ev+
here.
to
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: 2/5 full ring table. Most players have deep stack.
: Hero has about 500. Hero at BB hold QQ. 5 limpers. Hero raised to 35. 5
: callers including SB and BTN. BTN has about 1700.
: Flop (175) 368r, Hero led out 70. 3 callers. BTN tank a while and re-
: raised to 400.
: What shall the Hero do?
: In the end, all fold to BTN on the flop. But, can the BTN's move viewed to
: be polarized? If it is polarized move, shall the hero call or fold?
| m******1
发帖数: 715 | 22 Greeting WMWMW! Glad to see you again, along w the King and other old
friends.
Different theory or thought process will end up totally different action
plans. And it is so much situational. Have to love this game :) | w***w
发帖数: 6301 | 23 Hello and good to see you.
【在 m******1 的大作中提到】
: Greeting WMWMW! Glad to see you again, along w the King and other old
: friends.
: Different theory or thought process will end up totally different action
: plans. And it is so much situational. Have to love this game :)
|
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