c******q
发帖数: 456 | 1 2/5 game, villain is kind of passive ABC player. there was one hand, he flat
called prf in SB and check-shove on the low card flop with KK.
one limper, hero raised to $25 in MP with 2 red As, 4 callers including
villain who is BB. villain had $380ish to start the hand, hero covered.
Flop came Jd9h8d, villain led out $40, hero called. other players all folded.
turn was 3d. villain thought for a while and checked. hero bet $95, villain
reluctantly called. Should hero bet here?
River was blank, villain checked, hero pushed allin. Is this a right play?
============================================================================
==================
here is my thought,
on the flop, he led out kind of small on the flop. This indicated some
medium strenght hands, two pairs or over pair. set and straight are also
pssible but less likely since I expect him either betting larger or slow
playing. raising is certainly too strong here with there ppl acting behind
me, so I choose to call.
villain's turn check didn't change his range much. One thing for sure is
that he doesnt have flush. Here I think his hand heavily skews to over pair
or two pairs. So I decided to bet $95, (1) get value from his overpair; (2)
put pressure on him to bluff his two pair off.
river is a totally blank. Here my hand does have show down value. Pot has $
400, he has $220ish left. Will it be a better play if I push here and he (1)
calls with his overpair sometimes; (2) folds his two pairs sometimes? Since
my image was kind of tight at the time (but I doubt villain even pays
attention to this), I feel t is worth a try. | d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 2 my2c
1 passive doesn't mean weak,对手之前那把KK的check raise commit说明了，他在拿
到decent hand的时候，是capable put the trigger的，而其他很多时候，他会under
rep他的strength。所以，我觉得饼干兄turn上的$95是个great value bet，但是如果
对手仍然flat，那river在没有flush的情况下，我就基本shut down了
2 还有一个问题，其实我觉得很有必要拿出来讨论，其实是个老问题，就是当你手持
medium strong hand，在不确定自己领先还是落后的时候，是不是要turn your hand
into bluff。
当然，我们是希望对手，fold better hands并且call with worse hands，就像这手牌
，希望对手把2 pair+ 给fold，但是拿着over pair或者tptk call进来。但是，从我个
人的经验来看，实际情况不是这样，当你的最后一个bet，polarized之后（这里说的
polarize，不仅包括river的一个size巨大的bet，还包括从preflop开始，故事突然断
层，让最后的一个bet rep一个monster），撇开live tell的因素，对手如果倾向于
catch bluff，那他能用over pair catch就必定能用over pair+来catch，反之，如果
对手capable fold掉2 pairs，那over pair在这里也一定是个fold。
我们所真正不确定的是，
a 对手有没有达到这个level，能够知道我们的line rep的一个很strong的range
b 如果没有达到这个level，对手会不会over play over pair/tptk，即对手心里的pot
control的structure
c 如果对手有能力知道，我们这个move是polarized，那对手call的threshold在哪里（
这个还要结合，我们在对手眼里的image是个什么情况）
但是，事实情况是，你们彼此之间历史有限，如果没有类似situation的历史的话，还
是得老老实实按着ABC来打。
而哥觉得，这里按着ABC来打得话，river是个check behind。 | m****9
发帖数: 492 | 3 高手高手，我的想法：
Preflop: Check shove with KK in SB的例子能看出Calling range比较强。看check
shove说明post-flop打的还是挺猛的，恐怕不愿意fold大牌，这种对手我觉得bet for
value比较合适。从这单个例子我倒是没看出passive，我看到的是slow play with
monster。
Flop上，这么wet的flop bet $40 out of $100可以是bet for information，也可以是
hold a monster and beg for a raise。Bet for information的可能比较大，如果是
set/straight按照他的风格应该是check-shove的路线。
Turn上的check确实看出passive了，并且show了weakness。Call $95 bet out of $180
也看得出他已经有打算用手上的牌call down了。Bet $95 to repre a flush is a
great move，学习了。
在已经show了weakness的情况下，面对river的shove很容易让人觉得这个bet不是for
value。Risk $220 to win a pot of nearly $600(370+220)，我觉得对手是没有fold
equity，对手如果是overpair or two pair最后应该是会要call了。这样的shove能
beat对手range里的KK,QQ, maybe AJ. 没有办法beat 89, J9。
I think it's worth a try. but I doubt the push can fold villian's two pair.
I would choose to bet $100 or check. Bet $100 can help balance your bet
range. Check is also fine. | m****9
发帖数: 492 | 4 确实，一条line如果没有类似situation的历史很难被给credit。我觉得在cash game里
面是不是可以考虑在一开始的时候就去主动造成这种历史。比如overbet on river
with nuts，对方如果fold了自己主动把牌show出来？我试过几次但是效果不好说，并
不能保证所有人都能记住这个line，这个可能是jim哥说的a吧。这个可能也是poker
难玩的地方。
------
”我们所真正不确定的是，
a 对手有没有达到这个level，能够知道我们的line rep的一个很strong的range
b 如果没有达到这个level，对手会不会over play over pair/tptk，即对手心里的pot
control的structure
c 如果对手有能力知道，我们这个move是polarized，那对手call的threshold在哪里（
这个还要结合，我们在对手眼里的image是个什么情况）
但是，事实情况是，你们彼此之间历史有限，如果没有类似situation的历史的话，还
是得老老实实按着ABC来打。
而哥觉得，这里按着ABC来打得话，river是个check behind。“
under
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: my2c
: 1 passive doesn't mean weak,对手之前那把KK的check raise commit说明了，他在拿
: 到decent hand的时候，是capable put the trigger的，而其他很多时候，他会under
: rep他的strength。所以，我觉得饼干兄turn上的$95是个great value bet，但是如果
: 对手仍然flat，那river在没有flush的情况下，我就基本shut down了
: 2 还有一个问题，其实我觉得很有必要拿出来讨论，其实是个老问题，就是当你手持
: medium strong hand，在不确定自己领先还是落后的时候，是不是要turn your hand
: into bluff。
: 当然，我们是希望对手，fold better hands并且call with worse hands，就像这手牌
: ，希望对手把2 pair+ 给fold，但是拿着over pair或者tptk call进来。但是，从我个
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 5 I like this play if 3 is not a diamond and river is a blank.
flat
folded.
villain
==
【在 c******q 的大作中提到】
: 2/5 game, villain is kind of passive ABC player. there was one hand, he flat
: called prf in SB and check-shove on the low card flop with KK.
: one limper, hero raised to $25 in MP with 2 red As, 4 callers including
: villain who is BB. villain had $380ish to start the hand, hero covered.
: Flop came Jd9h8d, villain led out $40, hero called. other players all folded.
: turn was 3d. villain thought for a while and checked. hero bet $95, villain
: reluctantly called. Should hero bet here?
: River was blank, villain checked, hero pushed allin. Is this a right play?
: ============================================================================
: ==================
| m******1
发帖数: 715 | 6 i guess he mucked on your river push. otherwise, you'd lose the hand if he
call. So personally i feel no point to push on the river. | s*******n
发帖数: 33 | 7 The line is fine, if you are positive that he does not hit diamond flush.
For some tricky players, donk on the flush draw on the flop is not uncommon. |
|
