d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 1 villain是这个级别的大赢家，打法较平衡，但是也不轻易放弃，有点MM老湿的意思
hero image偏紧，但是有时候也会抡，不凶不弱
6Max，有效筹码大约100bb，3/6NL
Hero utg+1：AhKs open 13.5 as usual， 2 callers include btn Villain
flop （49.5）Td2dJs， hero tank cbet 25， MP call，villain call
Turn （118.5）Th，hero tank cbet 60， MP fold，villain call
River （238.5）As，hero fast check，villain tank and shove 400ish
hero？ |
j**y
发帖数: 7014 | 2 是我的话，会reluctant call。
400的shove不应该是value bet吧
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: villain是这个级别的大赢家，打法较平衡，但是也不轻易放弃，有点MM老湿的意思
: hero image偏紧，但是有时候也会抡，不凶不弱
: 6Max，有效筹码大约100bb，3/6NL
: Hero utg+1：AhKs open 13.5 as usual， 2 callers include btn Villain
: flop （49.5）Td2dJs， hero tank cbet 25， MP call，villain call
: Turn （118.5）Th，hero tank cbet 60， MP fold，villain call
: River （238.5）As，hero fast check，villain tank and shove 400ish
: hero？
|
x**j
发帖数: 1261 | 3 Fold. Villain a set of 10s
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 1.0.1
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: villain是这个级别的大赢家，打法较平衡，但是也不轻易放弃，有点MM老湿的意思
: hero image偏紧，但是有时候也会抡，不凶不弱
: 6Max，有效筹码大约100bb，3/6NL
: Hero utg+1：AhKs open 13.5 as usual， 2 callers include btn Villain
: flop （49.5）Td2dJs， hero tank cbet 25， MP call，villain call
: Turn （118.5）Th，hero tank cbet 60， MP fold，villain call
: River （238.5）As，hero fast check，villain tank and shove 400ish
: hero？
|
h******g
发帖数: 100 | 4 Considering the fact that villian flat preflop and flop on a pretty
coordinated board, you can probably take AA to TT out of his range. Quick
calculation on his range is as follows:
Value shoving range: AJ (9 combo), KQ (12 combo), any reasonable T like JT,
QT, KT, AT, 9Ts, 8Ts, etc (many combos), and 22 (6 combo)
Bluff range: Q9s (4 combo), 98s (4 combo), a couple of connected flush draw
(probably not AXd since it would be a really thin value bet on the river) so
we don't have enough equity to call. I would fold
But why not lead 1/2 pot on the river? Did you have a plan for his river
shove before checking?
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: villain是这个级别的大赢家，打法较平衡，但是也不轻易放弃，有点MM老湿的意思
: hero image偏紧，但是有时候也会抡，不凶不弱
: 6Max，有效筹码大约100bb，3/6NL
: Hero utg+1：AhKs open 13.5 as usual， 2 callers include btn Villain
: flop （49.5）Td2dJs， hero tank cbet 25， MP call，villain call
: Turn （118.5）Th，hero tank cbet 60， MP fold，villain call
: River （238.5）As，hero fast check，villain tank and shove 400ish
: hero？
|
R******d
发帖数: 976 | 5 Fold.
You got a bluff catcher on the river. In V's value range, you beat AQ only.
I would check/call or check/f turn. What do you expect to achieve by betting
half pot?
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: villain是这个级别的大赢家，打法较平衡，但是也不轻易放弃，有点MM老湿的意思
: hero image偏紧，但是有时候也会抡，不凶不弱
: 6Max，有效筹码大约100bb，3/6NL
: Hero utg+1：AhKs open 13.5 as usual， 2 callers include btn Villain
: flop （49.5）Td2dJs， hero tank cbet 25， MP call，villain call
: Turn （118.5）Th，hero tank cbet 60， MP fold，villain call
: River （238.5）As，hero fast check，villain tank and shove 400ish
: hero？
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 6
Considering the fact that villian flat preflop and flop on a pretty
coordinated board, you can probably take AA to TT out of his range. Quick
calculation on his range is as follows:
Value shoving range: AJ (9 combo), KQ (12 combo), any reasonable T like JT,
QT, KT, AT, 9Ts, 8Ts, etc (many combos), and 22 (6 combo)
Bluff range: Q9s (4 combo), 98s (4 combo), a couple of connected flush draw
(probably not AXd since it would be a really thin value bet on the river) so
we don't have enough equity to call. I would fold
But why not lead 1/2 pot on the river? Did you have a plan for his river
shove before checking?
分析非常靠谱，但是如果trips T在turn上still flat 1/2实际是偏保守的打法，面对
形象平衡的对手，在这样wet的board上，不在turn发力value，river either被人赶上
损失巨大，or拿不到任何的value，事实上，river Ace either成就hero monster，或
者把hero的qq/kk和一切烂draw彻底削弱，这个时候，如果面对hero的river check，要
maximize价值，overshove也不是一个很好的solution。
而反过来top 2 pairs以及straight在这样的一个spot上的over shove实际上也并不比
一个resaonable的大bet来得更有价值，往往是把value range给打跑，只留下dominate
自己的hands。
这里相对比较靠谱的解读就是busted draw和turn上的fullhouse+，加上对手的整体形
象和btn位，相比之下前者所占比例高很多。
而hero考虑river check，是因为3人池2 barrel打下去已经达到tptk的极限，碰到平衡
的对手，很难再挤出extra的value，能call或者raise hero river bet的基本上都赢
tptk
所以我原本打算是check看看villain的betting再做打算的。
【在 h******g 的大作中提到】
: Considering the fact that villian flat preflop and flop on a pretty
: coordinated board, you can probably take AA to TT out of his range. Quick
: calculation on his range is as follows:
: Value shoving range: AJ (9 combo), KQ (12 combo), any reasonable T like JT,
: QT, KT, AT, 9Ts, 8Ts, etc (many combos), and 22 (6 combo)
: Bluff range: Q9s (4 combo), 98s (4 combo), a couple of connected flush draw
: (probably not AXd since it would be a really thin value bet on the river) so
: we don't have enough equity to call. I would fold
: But why not lead 1/2 pot on the river? Did you have a plan for his river
: shove before checking?
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 7
.
betting
欢迎印度兄弟回归，其实AQ在那里shove，是turn a value hand into bluff，并不是
真的落在相对靠谱的villain的range里
直白点讲，villain river的over shove就是highly polarized，not even likely
including straight。
【在 R******d 的大作中提到】
: Fold.
: You got a bluff catcher on the river. In V's value range, you beat AQ only.
: I would check/call or check/f turn. What do you expect to achieve by betting
: half pot?
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 8 Looks like value bet to me.
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.6
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: villain是这个级别的大赢家，打法较平衡，但是也不轻易放弃，有点MM老湿的意思
: hero image偏紧，但是有时候也会抡，不凶不弱
: 6Max，有效筹码大约100bb，3/6NL
: Hero utg+1：AhKs open 13.5 as usual， 2 callers include btn Villain
: flop （49.5）Td2dJs， hero tank cbet 25， MP call，villain call
: Turn （118.5）Th，hero tank cbet 60， MP fold，villain call
: River （238.5）As，hero fast check，villain tank and shove 400ish
: hero？
|
p****0
发帖数: 611 | 9 Monster hand on the river for shoving hard to get the maximum value. Any
showdown hands would've check behind. 根据你的读牌，对手不轻易放弃，他float
的range也比较宽. 很大可能他没有draw 到牌，或者是packed pair got busted.
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
:
: .
: betting
: 欢迎印度兄弟回归，其实AQ在那里shove，是turn a value hand into bluff，并不是
: 真的落在相对靠谱的villain的range里
: 直白点讲，villain river的over shove就是highly polarized，not even likely
: including straight。
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 10
所以说MM老湿的风格和这个villain是一路的，一般正常reg对正常reg，over bet这条
line是很少出现的，一旦出现 over bet shove，对不起，百分之八九十都是real
monster。
但是哥那天实在是好奇，或者说没太在意这桌（正看着视频），怎么想都觉得不make
sense，所以也没太犹豫，call了
villain showed quads T
又一次交待了600刀给他
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Looks like value bet to me.
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.6
|
|
|
j**y
发帖数: 7014 | 11 我和你的想法比较一致，不太认为这是value bet
quads Ts真是只能认命了，呵呵
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
:
: 所以说MM老湿的风格和这个villain是一路的，一般正常reg对正常reg，over bet这条
: line是很少出现的，一旦出现 over bet shove，对不起，百分之八九十都是real
: monster。
: 但是哥那天实在是好奇，或者说没太在意这桌（正看着视频），怎么想都觉得不make
: sense，所以也没太犹豫，call了
: villain showed quads T
: 又一次交待了600刀给他
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 12 hillgong 大牛的后面那个评论怎么找不到呢
正想加精呢 |
R******d
发帖数: 976 | 13 蛤蛤
安书读得少，知道你不会骗安。live里面这种情况flip出来AQ不罕见 因为他们会put
you on pocket pair
安脚得蛤 这手牌最大的问题是turn bet，敌人的calling range没变，你呢oop with
bloated pot，怎吗都不是个比较友好的形式。至于牌面的分析 楼上兄弟已经狠到位了
安就不现了
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: hillgong 大牛的后面那个评论怎么找不到呢
: 正想加精呢
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 14 我是说如果翻出AQ那是balue bet
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.6
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: hillgong 大牛的后面那个评论怎么找不到呢
: 正想加精呢
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 15 Value bet
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.6
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 我是说如果翻出AQ那是balue bet
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.6
|
x**j
发帖数: 1261 | 16 wow better than a set of 10s...
rookie pure speculation
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: hillgong 大牛的后面那个评论怎么找不到呢
: 正想加精呢
|
h******g
发帖数: 100 | 17 hehe, I deleted it feel it was a little offensive
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: hillgong 大牛的后面那个评论怎么找不到呢
: 正想加精呢
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 18 OK的 我没觉得任何offense
而且大牛的思路是正道 比起猜有没有 走一步想一步的 高级多了
请贴回 |
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 19 For me, it is a fold.
You lose to QK, 222, JJJ, Tx, AJ
You can win against JQ(turn into bluff, he probably will not do that), AQ(he
might not call u on the turn, he might not value shove river).
You need 40% winning chance. I do not think you have great odds to call.
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: villain是这个级别的大赢家，打法较平衡，但是也不轻易放弃，有点MM老湿的意思
: hero image偏紧，但是有时候也会抡，不凶不弱
: 6Max，有效筹码大约100bb，3/6NL
: Hero utg+1：AhKs open 13.5 as usual， 2 callers include btn Villain
: flop （49.5）Td2dJs， hero tank cbet 25， MP call，villain call
: Turn （118.5）Th，hero tank cbet 60， MP fold，villain call
: River （238.5）As，hero fast check，villain tank and shove 400ish
: hero？
|
h******g
发帖数: 100 | 20 OK, I will post some thoughts but I don't recall exactly what I wrote so
this will be different...
I do agree with you that your opponent's range is highly polarized but I
also feel that you made your analysis mainly trying to justify your call. We
(me included) all have tendency to defend our decision (especially when it'
s wrong) that's why I am trying not to be result oriented when analyzing
hands.
Over the years, what I learned is that right decisions and right calls are
not necessarily the same. You can make right decisions by making the wrong
call and you can make the wrong decisions by making the right call.
Sometimes people will get encouraged by making the right call/wrong
decisions. For example, here villain can (but unlikely hence why we try to
figure out our equity) turn over a stone cold bluff and we scoop a big pot
because he does have that in his range but if that happens, we should not be
encouraged and make the same call in the long run just because it worked
this time. We will lose money in the long run. At the end, in my opinion, it
's all math (since we don't have physical reads on people) when it comes to
online poker.
Back to this hand, I am not biased in between leading the river and checking
the river. If we lead 1/2 to 2/3 pot, we will get value from a worse hand
like AQ, AXd, JX or get called by a better hand like AJ, probably some TX as
well and we can fold to a raise (even call if you think he has bluff in his
range and we have better equity so call will be more profitable than check
call the shove). I don't play NL holdem cash game a whole lot so I could be
wrong but I don't see people over shove bluff in those spots a lot (although
in tournament it happens more frequently, me included). By checking, we can
induce a lot of bluff so it is also a profitable decision to me. I
personally would choose to lead 1/2 pot on the river because I want to get
value from a hand like KJ, QJ, but would fold to a shove.
Poker is a game about making right, profitable decisions. But in real time,
we really don't have much time to think through a hand like we are doing
here so we make wrong decisions here and there. That's OK and it means we
still have room to improve our game. Often times it comes down to your
experience. I don't think Phil Ivey and many other old school pros are
better in math than us but they have tons of experience and they make
decision based on those (aka gut feeling). All we need to do is playing more
hands, trying to make the right decisions (not necessarily the right call)
and learning from our mistakes using math.
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: OK的 我没觉得任何offense
: 而且大牛的思路是正道 比起猜有没有 走一步想一步的 高级多了
: 请贴回
|
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | 21 这句说到点上了。我的理解80%以上是他认为的value bet, 倒未必是monster。试想你
tptk river overshove for value, get called by tpgk, and ship it! 这种感觉很
爽。
一旦出现 over bet shove，对不起，百分之八九十都是real monster。
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: OK的 我没觉得任何offense
: 而且大牛的思路是正道 比起猜有没有 走一步想一步的 高级多了
: 请贴回
|
