z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 1 说明：2014年1月7号补充反驳基们用“女儿终身没有亲近男子”狡辩耶弗他其实没真正
烧死女儿。
------------------------------------------------------------------
这是一个令人震惊令人愤怒的故事。一个人居然把自己的亲生女儿烧死了献给基督教的
“神”/“上帝”耶和华/耶稣！
这个人叫“耶弗他”，是以色列人的一个领袖。这个耶弗他在“圣经”“新约”里面得
到了极高的评价：
希伯来书
11:32 我又何必再说呢？若要一一细说，基甸，巴拉，参孙，耶弗他，大卫，撒母耳，
和众先知的事，时候就不够了。
11:33 他们因着信，制伏了敌国，行了公义，得了应许，堵了狮子的口。
就是这个在“新约”里极受推崇的耶弗他，居然把自己的女儿烧死献给基督教的“神”
/“上帝”耶和华/耶稣！
讲故事之前先说明几点：
1）故事的具体章节号我列出来了，有兴趣的同学们请自己查证，免得就督徒们又给我
扣一顶“断章取义”的帽子。
2）故事中的“耶弗他”是以色列的领袖。
3）读了这个故事，基督教的“神”耶和华/耶稣在这个悲剧中扮演了什么角色，大家自
己判断吧。
士师记 11 章
29 耶和华的灵降在耶弗他身上，他就经过基列和玛拿西，来到基列的米斯巴，又从米
斯巴来到亚扪人那里。
30 耶弗他就向耶和华许愿，说，你若将亚扪人交在我手中，
31 我从亚扪人那里平平安安回来的时候，无论什么人，先从我家门出来迎接我，就必
归你，我也必将他献上为燔祭。
32 于是耶弗他往亚扪人那里去，与他们争战。耶和华将他们交在他手中，
33 他就大大杀败他们，从亚罗珥到米匿，直到亚备勒基拉明，攻取了二十座城。这样
亚扪人就被以色列人制伏了。
34 耶弗他回米斯巴到了自己的家，不料，他女儿拿着鼓跳舞出来迎接他，是他独生的
，此外无儿无女。
35 耶弗他看见她，就撕裂衣服，说，哀哉。我的女儿阿，你使我甚是愁苦，叫我作难
了。因为我已经向耶和华开口许愿，不能挽回。
36 他女儿回答说，父阿，你既向耶和华开口，就当照你口中所说的向我行，因耶和华
已经在仇敌亚扪人身上为你报仇。
37 又对父亲说，有一件事求你允准，容我去两个月，与同伴在山上，好哀哭我终为处
女。
38 耶弗他说，你去吧。就容她去两个月。她便和同伴去了，在山上为她终为处女哀哭。
39 两月已满，她回到父亲那里，父亲就照所许的愿向她行了。女儿终身没有亲近男子。
40 此后以色列中有个规矩，每年以色列的女子去为基列人耶弗他的女儿哀哭四天。
最后，请思考：
1）耶弗他许的这个“愿”是不是十分邪恶的？
2）请注意，耶弗他许愿之前，“耶和华的灵降在耶弗他身上”！
3）耶弗他许了这么邪恶的“愿”，基督教的“神”/“上帝”倒是大大方方地成全他的
“愿”，并且对他烧死自己女儿的行为不加阻止。
4）令人奇怪的是，“圣经”却反复强调被烧死献给耶和华/耶稣的女人是处女！
==============================================
2014年1月7号补充：
有基们狡辩说，39节 “女儿终身没有亲近男子”表明耶弗他其实没真正烧死女儿。
反驳：单看中文，“女儿终身没有亲近男子”这一句的确令人困惑。但是，中英文对照
一看，其实是清清楚楚明明白白的。我们来看“圣经”：
上下文清清楚楚：
39 两月已满，她回到父亲那里，父亲就照所许的愿向她行了。女儿终身没有亲近男子。
After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had
vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom
40 此后以色列中有个规矩，每年以色列的女子去为基列人耶弗他的女儿哀哭四天。
that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate
the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.
“女儿终身没有亲近男子” 对应的英文是：“she was a virgin”。下面一句 “From
this comes the Israelite custom” 的“this”就是指耶弗他的女儿被烧死的时候
还是处女，因此以色列才有这个习俗：“每年以色列的女子去为基列人耶弗他的女儿哀
哭四天”。
耶弗他把女儿烧死了。根据“圣经”，这是清清楚楚的事情。
中文：父亲就照所许的愿向她行了
英文：“he did to her as he had vowed”
所许的“愿”是什么呢？“he had vowed”了什么？
中文：无论什么人，先从我家门出来迎接我，就必归你，我也必将他献上为燔祭
英文：“I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering”
结论是显然的：耶弗他把自己的亲生女儿烧死了献给耶和华/耶稣。 | z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 2 本帖摆事实讲道理，逻辑严谨，证据清楚，凭什么删帖？ | J*******g
发帖数: 8775 | 3 耶弗女儿的下落至今还有争议。即使按你说的，他乱许诺，烧了女儿，这是他做了错事
，基督徒这种乱许诺拿自己孩子祭神是严厉批判的。但耶弗也不是没做好事啊。评价历
史人物要客观的评价。像你非黑即白的评价一个人，是机械的，不客观的。
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
: 说明：2014年1月7号补充反驳基们用“女儿终身没有亲近男子”狡辩耶弗他其实没真正
: 烧死女儿。
: ------------------------------------------------------------------
: 这是一个令人震惊令人愤怒的故事。一个人居然把自己的亲生女儿烧死了献给基督教的
: “神”/“上帝”耶和华/耶稣！
: 这个人叫“耶弗他”，是以色列人的一个领袖。这个耶弗他在“圣经”“新约”里面得
: 到了极高的评价：
: 希伯来书
: 11:32 我又何必再说呢？若要一一细说，基甸，巴拉，参孙，耶弗他，大卫，撒母耳，
: 和众先知的事，时候就不够了。
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 4
有争议，有什么争议？无非就是基们自欺欺人而已。中英文对照，上下文清清楚楚明明
白白：耶弗他把女儿烧死了献给你家主子，对不对？
其次，这并不仅仅耶弗他做了错事。耶弗他需这个邪恶的“愿”的时候，你家主子的“
灵”降临了耶弗他身上。并且你家主子还成全了耶弗他如此邪恶的许愿，可见你家主子
同样是邪恶的。
【在 J*******g 的大作中提到】
: 耶弗女儿的下落至今还有争议。即使按你说的，他乱许诺，烧了女儿，这是他做了错事
: ，基督徒这种乱许诺拿自己孩子祭神是严厉批判的。但耶弗也不是没做好事啊。评价历
: 史人物要客观的评价。像你非黑即白的评价一个人，是机械的，不客观的。
| s*********t
发帖数: 4253 | 5 这个经文有两个教训，
1）就是不要随便以【自己的意向】和上帝立誓。
2）这事件是被记载在圣经内但不代表人的愚昧是上帝所认可接纳的。
耶弗和上帝立誓是要面对自己的[承诺]付出代价，
【愚昧的行为】 和 [承诺]是两码事。
他立了誓是要执行但不代表我家主子就会认同他愚昧的行为。 | G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 6 耶弗把他女儿烧了吗?
【在 s*********t 的大作中提到】
: 这个经文有两个教训，
: 1）就是不要随便以【自己的意向】和上帝立誓。
: 2）这事件是被记载在圣经内但不代表人的愚昧是上帝所认可接纳的。
: 耶弗和上帝立誓是要面对自己的[承诺]付出代价，
: 【愚昧的行为】 和 [承诺]是两码事。
: 他立了誓是要执行但不代表我家主子就会认同他愚昧的行为。
| J*******g
发帖数: 8775 | 7 耶弗发誓不是“灵”的作用，而“灵”只是帮耶弗打败敌人，耶弗发誓是自己要做的。
你还是在反你自己的（错误）理解。
请看ESV study bible 上的解释：
Judg. 14:6 the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon him. The OT speaks many times
of God’s Spirit acting upon individuals, usually to empower them for some
service for the whole people of God. In Judges this is described by the
Spirit being upon (Othniel, 3:10; Jephthah, 11:29), clothing (Gideon, 6:34),
stirring (Samson, 13:25), or rushing upon someone (Samson, 14:6, 19; 15:14;
cf. Saul, 1 Sam. 10:6, 10; 11:6; David, 1 Sam. 16:13). See note on 1 Sam.
10:6.
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
:
: 有争议，有什么争议？无非就是基们自欺欺人而已。中英文对照，上下文清清楚楚明明
: 白白：耶弗他把女儿烧死了献给你家主子，对不对？
: 其次，这并不仅仅耶弗他做了错事。耶弗他需这个邪恶的“愿”的时候，你家主子的“
: 灵”降临了耶弗他身上。并且你家主子还成全了耶弗他如此邪恶的许愿，可见你家主子
: 同样是邪恶的。
| J*******g
发帖数: 8775 | 8 请参考study bible的解释。
https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Judges+11:28
Jephthah’s vow and victory 11:29-33
God’s Spirit then clothed Jephthah giving the promise of divine enablement
and victory in the approaching encounter with the Ammonite army (v. 29; cf.
3:10; 6:34; 14:6, 19; 1 Sam. 10:10).
“The spirit may be an effective power; but it seems that it is not
automatically effective, at least not in terms of effecting deliverance. The
spirit comes upon or possesses human beings; therefore, it must be embodied
with cooperation and faithfulness if deliverance is to be effected . . .”[
243]
Jephthah traveled through Gilead, in the tribal territory of Gad, and
eastern Manasseh, to the north, recruiting soldiers. He led his troops back
to Mizpah in Gilead (cf. v. 11) and then eastward into Ammon.
Jephthah made a vow before going into battle. He promised that if the Lord
would give him victory he would give God whatever came out of the door of
his house when he returned from the conflict (vv. 30-31). He would offer
this person or animal either as a sacrifice of dedication to the Lord or as
a burnt offering of worship (v. 31).
“The making of the vow is an act of unfaithfulness. Jephthah desires to
bind God rather than embrace the gift of the spirit. What comes to him
freely, he seeks to earn and manipulate. The meaning of his words is doubt,
not faith; it is control, not courage. To such a vow the deity makes no
reply.”[244]
Compare Gideon’s similar response to the gift of God’s Spirit. The
masculine gender of the Hebrew word translated “whatever” can apply to a
person or an animal, but Jephthah was probably thinking of an animal.
“His negotiations with the elders, his diplomacy with the Ammonites, and
his vow, have all amply displayed Jephthah’s facility with words. Jephthah,
we know, is good at opening his mouth. (How ironical that his name means
literally ‘he opens’!). What has precipitated the crisis with his daughter
is that he has opened his mouth to Yahweh, that is, he has tried to conduct
his relationship with God in the same way that he has conducted his
relationships with men. He has debased religion (a vow, an offering) into
politics.”[245]),” Reformed Theological Review 45:2 (May-August 1986):42.
Webb pointed out, in the helpful article quoted above, that Israel had done
the same thing Jephthah did. This tendency to negotiate with God marked and
marred her relationship with Yahweh during this period of her history.
The Lord gave Jephthah success in the battle, and he destroyed 20 cities in
Ammon. He broke the Ammonites’ strong power, so they ceased oppressing
Israel (v. 33).
The writer wrote verses 29-32 using a chiastic structure. This section
begins and ends with the promise and fulfillment of God giving Jephthah
victory. When the Spirit came on him there was no doubt that he would defeat
the enemy. The center of the chiasm relates Jephthah bargaining with God to
insure victory. He did not need to make this vow. He had already testified
that God had given His people victory in the past (vv. 21, 24). Apparently
his faith was not as strong as it might have been, and this weakness led him
to seek a guarantee of success by making the vow.
Jephthah’s vow reveals that he had a rather unenlightened concept of Yahweh
. His commitment to the Lord was strangely strong, but his understanding of
God was not Scriptural. He did not know what the Law revealed about Yahweh,
or he had forgotten this. His concept of God bears the marks of Canaanite
influence. His belief that he needed to bargain with and bribe God to get
Him to bless His people was unfortunate (cf. Jer. 29:11). He also believed
that Yahweh took pleasure in what hurts people, that He is sadistic. This
idea is also inaccurate and pagan. Furthermore he believed that God might
abandon him before he finished his battle. God had promised that He would
not do this as long as His people trusted and obeyed Him (Deut. 28:1, 7).
Jephthah made his tragic vow because he did not have a Scriptural view of
God.[246] He should have vowed to offer the inhabitants of the cities he
would conquer as sacrifices to God (Num. 21:2).
The secret to Jephthah’s success was his essential trust in and obedience
to Yahweh. This is always the key to spiritual success. His life teaches us
that God can and does use people with tough backgrounds. God does not
produce His instruments with a cookie cutter. Each one is different. He even
uses people whom others reject because of their families and lifestyles. He
prepares His tools throughout their lives and uses everything in their
backgrounds to equip them to conduct a unique ministry for Himself.
The fate of Jephthah’s daughter 11:34-40
Verses 1-33 record Jephthah’s success. The rest of his story (11:34—12:7)
relates his failure. The writer likewise recorded Gideon’s success first (6
:1—8:23) and then his failure (8:24—9:57). We shall find a similar pattern
when we come to Samson’s story. As with Gideon and Samson, Jephthah’s
failure grew out of his success. In all three of these major judges’ cases,
failure resulted from ignorance of God’s Word or disregard of it.
God gave us little information about the personal lives of the first three
major judges, namely, Othniel, Ehud, and Deborah. He gave us much more
personal information about the last three major judges: Gideon, Jephthah,
and Samson. This selection of material helps us appreciate the deterioration
that took place in Israel during the Judges Period as God’s people did
what was right in their own eyes (21:25).
When Jephthah returned home from battle, his only child, a daughter, greeted
him gleefully (v. 34). The writer’s description of her recalls Miriam’s
joy and dancing after the Lord gave the Israelites victory over their
Egyptian pursuers (Exod. 15:20). But her joy became Jephthah’s sorrow (v.
35). He falsely blamed her for his sorrow (cf. 1 Kings 18:17-18). Really he
was responsible for it because of his vow to God (vv. 30-31). “Given my
word” is wordplay (vv. 35-36). Jephthah’s name means “he opens,” and “
given my word” is literally “opened my mouth.” Jephthah evidently
believed that to go back on his vow to God would involve a denial of his
integrity, his very name. He felt he would be denying everything he believed
in and stood for.
Jephthah believed he could not get out of his vow (v. 35). Unfortunately he
did not know or had forgotten that God had made provision for His people to
redeem things they had vowed to give Him. Leviticus 27:1-8 told the
Israelites that if they vowed someone or something to God and then wanted it
back they could pay a stated ransom price and buy it back. Had he obeyed
the Word of God he could have avoided sacrificing his daughter. With his vow
he sought to secure his present, but through it he ended up sacrificing his
future. Contrast the outcome of Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac (Gen. 22). He
secured a hope and a future whereas Jephthah lost both. This is yet another
example in Judges of self-assertion leading to violence, in this case the
abuse of a young woman.
“Although the present story ends with the death of the young girl, her
father is the tragic figure, presenting a pathetic picture of stupidity,
brutality, ambition, and self-centeredness. Ironically, the one who appeared
to have become master of his own fate has become a victim of his own rash
word. . . . The man who had tried to manipulate Yahweh to guarantee his ‘
peace’ (shalom) is doomed by the one whose life he was willing to sacrifice
for his own well-being.”[247]
The submission of Jephthah’s daughter was as commendable as it was tragic.
She did not know Leviticus 27 either, but she submitted as an obedient child
(cf. Gen. 22). She too believed that the Lord had given her father the
victory over the Ammonites (v. 36). Here is another woman in Judges who
provides a good example (cf. Achsah, Deborah, Jael). Yet she ended up
weeping because of the folly of her idolatrous, self-assertive father. Note
the references to weeping at the beginning (2:4), middle (11:38), and end (
20:23, 26; 21:2) of this book. Of all the characters in Judges, this
daughter was more like Jesus than any other in that she embodies God’s
experiences.[248] Notice also the parallel between the death of Jephthah’s
daughter and the death of six million Jews during World War II. Both were
holocausts perpetrated in the name of God that the Jews determined never to
forget.[249]
There are primarily two possible interpretations of the fate of Jephthah’s
daughter as the record of Jephthah fulfilling his vow unfolds in this
section of verses.[250]
1.Jephthah offered her as a human sacrifice (burnt offering) to Yahweh.[251]
The more important arguments in favor of this interpretation are as follows.
a. Jephthah’s desolation when his daughter greeted him points to an
ultimate sacrifice (v. 35).
b. The fact that she received a two-month reprieve before Jephthah carried
out his vowed action suggests that she died (vv. 37-38).
c. The institution of a four-day annual feast in Israel as a result of her
fate argues for her death (v. 40).
d. Until the Middle Ages this was the uniform interpretation of the
commentators.
e. The writer said the Israelites worshipped the gods of Ammon and Moab (10:
10), and the leaders of these nations sacrificed children (2 Kings 3:27).
The rebuttals to these points are these.
a. Jephthah naturally would have been very sorry that his daughter met him
rather than some animal. He had only one heir, and she could not now
perpetuate his family in Israel.
b. The two-month reprieve would have been appropriate if she left his home
from then on for a life of perpetual service at the tabernacle. She mourned
because she would live as a virgin, not die a virgin.
c. The Israelites established the feast because she so admirably submitted
to the will of her father and God. Moreover she was the daughter of a famous
judge in Israel.
d. The antiquity of an interpretation does not guarantee its accuracy.
2.Jephthah dedicated her to the service of Yahweh at the tabernacle where
she ministered from then on as a virgin.[252]
Some of the stronger arguments in favor of this view are these.
a. The text allows this possibility. The words and expressions used do not
require a human sacrifice.
b. God specifically forbade human sacrifice in the Mosaic Law and called it
an abomination in His sight (Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5; Deut. 12:31; 18:10). That a
judge in Israel such as Jephthah would have practiced it is unthinkable.
c. There is no record that the Israelites made human sacrifices until the
godless kings Ahab and Manasseh introduced them many years later.
d. The writer did not picture Jephthah as a rash person who would
impetuously or desperately promise God such a sacrifice (cf. vv. 9-11, 12-27
).
The responses to these arguments that critics of this view have made are as
follows.
a. Human sacrifice is the normal implication of the terms used in the
passage.
b. Jephthah violated the Mosaic Law, as did other of Israel’s judges (e.g.,
Gideon’s multiple marriages, Samson’s violations of his Nazirite vow, etc
.).
c. This could be the first human sacrifice the Israelites offered that God
recorded in Scripture. The king of Moab later offered his crown prince as a
human sacrifice to assure victory in battle, so this pagan practice may have
influenced Jephthah (cf. 2 Kings 3:27).
d. Jephthah’s background suggests that he was a rash person. He might have
resorted to such an extreme measure to secure victory and acceptance by the
Gileadites (cf. vv. 1-3).
I believe Jephthah offered his daughter as a human sacrifice. What Jephthah
did to his daughter may have been acceptable to Molech, but it was not to
Yahweh. A few years later Saul also made a foolish vow and almost slew his
son Jonathan (1 Sam. 14:39, 44-45). The only thing that prevented that
tragedy was the intervention of the Israelites. Ignorance or disregard of
God’s Word is not only unfortunate, but it is also dangerous.
“Long neglect of the Mosaic law had left the Israelites with many mistaken
notions about God’s will.”[253]
Jephthah may have known God’s will but simply chose to disregard it.
“If God’s mind can change for the sake of graciously allowing people to
live, why cannot Jephthah change his mind [about slaying his daughter]? At
other places in the Old Testament, God even breaks the Torah in order to
allow the people to live—for instance, inviting an adulterous people to
return instead of killing them (see Jer. 3:11-14), and allowing Israel, the
disobedient child, to be spared rather than stoned (see Hos. 11:1-9). In
Jephthah’s case, Jephthah could actually have appealed to the Torah as
support for not sacrificing his child. But he does not. Where are the
imaginative diplomatic skills of 11:12-28, where Jephthah shows detailed
awareness of Numbers 21, a Torah narrative?”[254]
Why do the fortunes of women decline as the Book of Judges proceeds,
beginning here? Following the execution of Jephthah’s daughter things got
worse for women in Israel. A Levite’s concubine was raped, killed, and
dismembered (ch. 19), 400 young virgins from Jabesh-gilead were abducted (21
:12), as were the young women of Shiloh (21:21). One of the primary
indications of moral confusion and social chaos in any society is the abuse
of women. The writer revealed the confusion and chaos in Israel by recording
these instances of the abuse of women.
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
: 说明：2014年1月7号补充反驳基们用“女儿终身没有亲近男子”狡辩耶弗他其实没真正
: 烧死女儿。
: ------------------------------------------------------------------
: 这是一个令人震惊令人愤怒的故事。一个人居然把自己的亲生女儿烧死了献给基督教的
: “神”/“上帝”耶和华/耶稣！
: 这个人叫“耶弗他”，是以色列人的一个领袖。这个耶弗他在“圣经”“新约”里面得
: 到了极高的评价：
: 希伯来书
: 11:32 我又何必再说呢？若要一一细说，基甸，巴拉，参孙，耶弗他，大卫，撒母耳，
: 和众先知的事，时候就不够了。
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 9 耶弗他许下这么邪恶的“愿”到底是他自己许的还是你家主子的“灵”让他许的，“圣
经”么有明说。但是，你家主子的“灵”一降临耶弗他的身上他就许这个邪恶的“愿”
，耐人寻味啊！
其次，关键的一点是：你家主子还成全了耶弗他如此邪恶的许愿，可见你家主子
同样是邪恶的。
times
),
14;
【在 J*******g 的大作中提到】
: 耶弗发誓不是“灵”的作用，而“灵”只是帮耶弗打败敌人，耶弗发誓是自己要做的。
: 你还是在反你自己的（错误）理解。
: 请看ESV study bible 上的解释：
: Judg. 14:6 the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon him. The OT speaks many times
: of God’s Spirit acting upon individuals, usually to empower them for some
: service for the whole people of God. In Judges this is described by the
: Spirit being upon (Othniel, 3:10; Jephthah, 11:29), clothing (Gideon, 6:34),
: stirring (Samson, 13:25), or rushing upon someone (Samson, 14:6, 19; 15:14;
: cf. Saul, 1 Sam. 10:6, 10; 11:6; David, 1 Sam. 16:13). See note on 1 Sam.
: 10:6.
| B*********s
发帖数: 306 | 10 Thanks, Jason. Very complete and helpful explanations. Never mind the
unteachables whose hearts are hardened against God.
enablement
.
The
embodied
”[
【在 J*******g 的大作中提到】
: 请参考study bible的解释。
: https://net.bible.org/#!bible/Judges+11:28
: Jephthah’s vow and victory 11:29-33
: God’s Spirit then clothed Jephthah giving the promise of divine enablement
: and victory in the approaching encounter with the Ammonite army (v. 29; cf.
: 3:10; 6:34; 14:6, 19; 1 Sam. 10:10).
: “The spirit may be an effective power; but it seems that it is not
: automatically effective, at least not in terms of effecting deliverance. The
: spirit comes upon or possesses human beings; therefore, it must be embodied
: with cooperation and faithfulness if deliverance is to be effected . . .”[
| | | z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 11
啧啧啧，这就是基们的“爱人如己”？
请问：
按照“圣经”，耶和华/耶稣多次大规模屠杀婴儿，请问你赞美耶和华/耶稣的这些暴行
吗？
按照“圣经”，耶和华/耶稣甚至还__主动地__有意地__使__人们吃自己儿女的肉，请
问你赞美耶和华/耶稣如此邪恶的行径吗？
你的回答是什么？“赞美”？还是“不赞美”？
【在 B*********s 的大作中提到】
: Thanks, Jason. Very complete and helpful explanations. Never mind the
: unteachables whose hearts are hardened against God.
:
: enablement
: .
: The
: embodied
: ”[
| J*******g
发帖数: 8775 | 12 最后，把女儿做祭品或是让她终身守寡也是耶弗自己的意思。不是上帝的，按旧约律法
，他可以花钱收回自己的誓言的。
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
: 耶弗他许下这么邪恶的“愿”到底是他自己许的还是你家主子的“灵”让他许的，“圣
: 经”么有明说。但是，你家主子的“灵”一降临耶弗他的身上他就许这个邪恶的“愿”
: ，耐人寻味啊！
: 其次，关键的一点是：你家主子还成全了耶弗他如此邪恶的许愿，可见你家主子
: 同样是邪恶的。
:
: times
: ),
: 14;
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 13
你始终在回避关键问题：你家主子成全了耶弗他如此邪恶的许愿，可见你家主子
同样是邪恶的。
【在 J*******g 的大作中提到】
: 最后，把女儿做祭品或是让她终身守寡也是耶弗自己的意思。不是上帝的，按旧约律法
: ，他可以花钱收回自己的誓言的。
| J*******g
发帖数: 8775 | 14 Praise to the Lord for using everyone, even those who is against Him, for
his purpose. Qilikacha have been forcing me to understand the Bible better.
【在 B*********s 的大作中提到】
: Thanks, Jason. Very complete and helpful explanations. Never mind the
: unteachables whose hearts are hardened against God.
:
: enablement
: .
: The
: embodied
: ”[
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 15
去年剩蛋节的时候，37个基督徒上天堂了，你赞美你家主子不？
【在 J*******g 的大作中提到】
: Praise to the Lord for using everyone, even those who is against Him, for
: his purpose. Qilikacha have been forcing me to understand the Bible better.
| t*******r
发帖数: 2940 | 16 你不是已经知道神不允许烧孩子，你还指责信神的人不遵守神的命令。我都同意你的。
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
:
: 去年剩蛋节的时候，37个基督徒上天堂了，你赞美你家主子不？
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 17
你家主子嘴巴上说不允许烧孩子，但是你家主子却大大方方地成全了耶弗他如此邪恶的
“愿”。可见你家主子耶和华/耶稣是邪恶的。
耶弗他犯下如此骇人听闻的罪恶（如果不是出于你家主子的授意的话），也不见你家主
子表示过什么不满啊！
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: 你不是已经知道神不允许烧孩子，你还指责信神的人不遵守神的命令。我都同意你的。
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 18
你家主子耶和华/耶稣 主动地 有意地 使 人们吃自己儿女的肉，你怎么看？
耶利米书
19：9 我必使他们在围困窘迫之中，就是仇敌和寻索其命的人窘迫他们的时候，各
人吃自己儿女的肉和朋友的肉。
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they
will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them
by the enemies who seek their lives.'
中文：“我必使......各人吃自己儿女的肉和朋友的肉。”
英文：“I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters”
中英文对照，上下文清清楚楚明明白白：基督教的“上帝”（或者：“神”）耶和华/
耶稣
完全是__主动地__有意地__使__人们吃自己儿女的肉！
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: 你不是已经知道神不允许烧孩子，你还指责信神的人不遵守神的命令。我都同意你的。
| t*******r
发帖数: 2940 | 19 但你认为信神的人经常不遵守神的命令，耶弗他正是不遵守神的命令烧孩子，为什么还
需要神的成全？你知不知道耶弗他没有后代了，在旧约里是被认为受诅咒，你认为神用
诅咒成全耶弗他什么？
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
:
: 你家主子耶和华/耶稣 主动地 有意地 使 人们吃自己儿女的肉，你怎么看？
: 耶利米书
: 19：9 我必使他们在围困窘迫之中，就是仇敌和寻索其命的人窘迫他们的时候，各
: 人吃自己儿女的肉和朋友的肉。
: I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they
: will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them
: by the enemies who seek their lives.'
: 中文：“我必使......各人吃自己儿女的肉和朋友的肉。”
: 英文：“I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters”
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 20
你家主子成全了耶弗他的“愿”，是不是？
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: 但你认为信神的人经常不遵守神的命令，耶弗他正是不遵守神的命令烧孩子，为什么还
: 需要神的成全？你知不知道耶弗他没有后代了，在旧约里是被认为受诅咒，你认为神用
: 诅咒成全耶弗他什么？
| | | n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 21 应该说神没有阻止耶弗他还愿：不管烧了，还是终生未嫁。
结局就是耶弗他没有后代。
这整个过程就是神对耶弗他的惩罚。
那么神对他的惩罚对吗？他仓促立誓言以及誓言的内容，神赞成吗？神是不允许烧孩子
所以这个誓言本身就是个错误。
原作者写以色列人纪念耶弗他的女儿，也说明这是一个教训。
“人向神许愿表达心意本来是好事，但耶弗他许愿的出发点是错误的。耶和华的灵
降在他身上（29节），这是神将亚扪人交在他手中的凭证。为何他没有信心，还要假设
说「若」呢？许愿不是换取胜利的条件。
耶弗他犯了更严重的错误，就是他许愿的内容。他所许的愿，是他得胜回来时，
谁最先从家门出来迎接他，就把谁献给耶和华为燔祭。经文很清楚的说「无论甚么人」
，因此不是指牲畜，而是指人。换句话说，耶弗他许愿把家中的一员献给耶和华为燔祭
。迦南地的异教有向他们诸神献人为祭的风俗，特別是献婴儿为燔祭，就是圣经所说的
「使儿女经火」。但耶和华的律法严禁以色列人这样作：「你们中间不可有人使儿女经
火」（申一八10），凡行这事的都为耶和华所憎恶。耶弗他鲁莽地许这样的愿，犯了严
重的过失，作了神憎恶的事。 ”
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
:
: 你家主子成全了耶弗他的“愿”，是不是？
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 22
如果你家主子认为是个错误，你家主子为什么还成全耶弗他的“愿”？
关于这一段故事的上下文中你家主子有没有一丁丁点表示不满？
基们为了把主子摘清，可谓无所不用其极。
下面的经文清清楚楚明白百地描写了你家主子干的坏事，你还能怎么狡辩？
耶利米书
19：9 我必使他们在围困窘迫之中，就是仇敌和寻索其命的人窘迫他们的时候，各
人吃自己儿女的肉和朋友的肉。
I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they
will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them
by the enemies who seek their lives.'
中文：“我必使......各人吃自己儿女的肉和朋友的肉。”
英文：“I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters”
中英文对照，上下文清清楚楚明明白白：基督教的“上帝”（或者：“神”）耶和华/
耶稣
完全是__主动地__有意地__使__人们吃自己儿女的肉！
撒母耳记上
15：2 万军之耶和华如此说，以色列人出埃及的时候，在路上亚玛力人怎样待他们，怎
样抵挡他们，我都没忘。
15：3 现在你要去击打亚玛力人，灭尽他们所有的，不可怜惜他们，将男女，孩童，吃
奶的，并牛，羊，骆驼，和驴尽行杀死。
【在 n********n 的大作中提到】
: 应该说神没有阻止耶弗他还愿：不管烧了，还是终生未嫁。
: 结局就是耶弗他没有后代。
: 这整个过程就是神对耶弗他的惩罚。
: 那么神对他的惩罚对吗？他仓促立誓言以及誓言的内容，神赞成吗？神是不允许烧孩子
: 所以这个誓言本身就是个错误。
: 原作者写以色列人纪念耶弗他的女儿，也说明这是一个教训。
: “人向神许愿表达心意本来是好事，但耶弗他许愿的出发点是错误的。耶和华的灵
: 降在他身上（29节），这是神将亚扪人交在他手中的凭证。为何他没有信心，还要假设
: 说「若」呢？许愿不是换取胜利的条件。
: 耶弗他犯了更严重的错误，就是他许愿的内容。他所许的愿，是他得胜回来时，
| B*********s
发帖数: 306 | 23 Exactly. I am just thankful that, while Qilikacha sounds like a broken robot
with a one liner on most occasions, he occasionally exhibited some trace of
human intelligence, for which we must thank his Creator.
【在 J*******g 的大作中提到】
: Praise to the Lord for using everyone, even those who is against Him, for
: his purpose. Qilikacha have been forcing me to understand the Bible better.
| n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 24 人自己的罪恶错误，不能归罪于上帝。
错误的代价，使耶弗他受到了神的惩罚，这要怨自己。
有些人的基因传不下去，不能怨神，或许神给他的机会他没有把握。
至于为什么是惩罚，而不是挽回，这取决于神，不是人。这可以对照亚伯拉罕献儿子燔
祭得以避免的故事。
这是神的奥秘，或有我们不了解的其他原因。
这是我的理解，你可以表示不理解。
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
:
: 如果你家主子认为是个错误，你家主子为什么还成全耶弗他的“愿”？
: 关于这一段故事的上下文中你家主子有没有一丁丁点表示不满？
: 基们为了把主子摘清，可谓无所不用其极。
: 下面的经文清清楚楚明白百地描写了你家主子干的坏事，你还能怎么狡辩？
: 耶利米书
: 19：9 我必使他们在围困窘迫之中，就是仇敌和寻索其命的人窘迫他们的时候，各
: 人吃自己儿女的肉和朋友的肉。
: I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they
: will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them
| z********o
发帖数: 18304 | 25 当然不理解，因为你根本没解释嘛。请你尝试解释一下：
按照“圣经”，耶和华/耶稣多次大规模屠杀婴儿，这是什么“爱”或者“公义”？
按照“圣经”，耶和华/耶稣甚至还__主动地__有意地__使__人们吃自己儿女的肉，这
是什么“爱”或者“公义”？
【在 n********n 的大作中提到】
: 人自己的罪恶错误，不能归罪于上帝。
: 错误的代价，使耶弗他受到了神的惩罚，这要怨自己。
: 有些人的基因传不下去，不能怨神，或许神给他的机会他没有把握。
: 至于为什么是惩罚，而不是挽回，这取决于神，不是人。这可以对照亚伯拉罕献儿子燔
: 祭得以避免的故事。
: 这是神的奥秘，或有我们不了解的其他原因。
: 这是我的理解，你可以表示不理解。
| n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 26 我对你的不理解表示理解，和同情。
你甘愿给大家当陪练的精神，我表示赞扬。
【在 z********o 的大作中提到】
: 当然不理解，因为你根本没解释嘛。请你尝试解释一下：
: 按照“圣经”，耶和华/耶稣多次大规模屠杀婴儿，这是什么“爱”或者“公义”？
: 按照“圣经”，耶和华/耶稣甚至还__主动地__有意地__使__人们吃自己儿女的肉，这
: 是什么“爱”或者“公义”？
|
|
