s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 1 John 17:5
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which
I had with thee before the world was."
Problem:
If Christ had glory with God before the world was, then obviously it is argu
ed he must have existed before his birth on earth.
Solution:
Stress is often placed on Jesus' statement that he had glory with the Father
. The J.W.'s in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translate
this verse as follows: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself w
ith the glory that I had alongside you before the world was."1 But the Greek
preposition "para" translated "with" in the A.V. and "alongside" in the N.W
.T. also occurs in John 1:6: "There was a man sent from {Greek: para} God, w
hose name was John." If the preposition in John 17:5 requires the literal pr
e-existence of Christ, then likewise it requires the literal pre-existence o
f John the Baptist.2 It is interesting that the N.W.T. inconsistently transl
ates John 1:6 as follows: "There arose a man that was sent forth as a repres
entative of God: his name was John." There is no hint of pre-existence here.
How could Jesus have glory with his Father "before the world was" if he did
not literally pre-exist? An illustration is helpful: An architect sees and k
nows the beautiful details of his proposed construction before the site is p
repared, or the foundation-stone laid. But God is the great Architect and in
His divine plan, Christ was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the worl
d" (Rev. 13:8) - the chief cornerstone "foreordained before the foundation o
f the world". (1 Peter 1:20). The building will duly be fitly framed togethe
r (Eph. 2:21) to constitute its part in the "kingdom prepared . . . from the
foundation of the world." (Matt. 25:34). Christ was "foreordained", but not
formed until born of the virgin Mary in the days of Herod the king. Likewis
e, the glory he had with his Father was in the divine plan of the great Arch
itect. It was the subject of prophetic testimony "when it {the Spirit of Chr
ist} testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should
follow." (1 Peter 1:11 cf. John 12:41).
Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the f
ollowing:
Of believers, Paul wrote:
"Whom he did foreknow." (Rom. 8:29).
"He had afore prepared {note the past tense} unto glory." (Rom. 9:23 cf. 2 T
im. 1:9).
"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." (Eph. 1:4).
Of Jeremiah, the LORD said: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordain
ed thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jer. 1:5).
But who would contend for the pre-existence of Jeremiah and other believers
because the language employed states that God knew them before they were bor
n? Similarly, the language of John 17:5 must be understood in terms of this
background. Unless the principle is recognized that God "calleth those thing
s which be not as though they were" (Rom. 4:17), confusion will result in Bi
blical interpretation, as it does with the wrested pre-existence interpretat
ion given to this passage in John's gospel.
The context is sufficiently clear that Christ is not "Very God". His power a
nd authority are derived, not innate: "As thou hast given him {Christ} power
over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast gi
ven him." (John 17:2). | s***u
发帖数: 1911 | 2 shoot a verse that can prove trinity, tinitarians? | x****g
发帖数: 4008 | 3 Thanks for sharing
which
argu
Father
translate
w
【在 s***u 的大作中提到】
: John 17:5
: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which
: I had with thee before the world was."
: Problem:
: If Christ had glory with God before the world was, then obviously it is argu
: ed he must have existed before his birth on earth.
: Solution:
: Stress is often placed on Jesus' statement that he had glory with the Father
: . The J.W.'s in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translate
: this verse as follows: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself w
| m********1
发帖数: 269 | 4 Thanks for sharing
which
argu
Father
translate
w
【在 s***u 的大作中提到】
: John 17:5
: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which
: I had with thee before the world was."
: Problem:
: If Christ had glory with God before the world was, then obviously it is argu
: ed he must have existed before his birth on earth.
: Solution:
: Stress is often placed on Jesus' statement that he had glory with the Father
: . The J.W.'s in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translate
: this verse as follows: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself w
| j********1
发帖数: 2073 | 5 Thanks for sharing
which
argu
Father
translate
w
【在 s***u 的大作中提到】
: John 17:5
: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which
: I had with thee before the world was."
: Problem:
: If Christ had glory with God before the world was, then obviously it is argu
: ed he must have existed before his birth on earth.
: Solution:
: Stress is often placed on Jesus' statement that he had glory with the Father
: . The J.W.'s in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translate
: this verse as follows: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself w
| m****u
发帖数: 1689 | 6 Thanks for sharing
which
argu
Father
translate
w
【在 s***u 的大作中提到】
: John 17:5
: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which
: I had with thee before the world was."
: Problem:
: If Christ had glory with God before the world was, then obviously it is argu
: ed he must have existed before his birth on earth.
: Solution:
: Stress is often placed on Jesus' statement that he had glory with the Father
: . The J.W.'s in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translate
: this verse as follows: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself w
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