R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 1 Can you lose your salvation?
Many people fervently believe that once saved, they can never lose their sal
vation. I pray that those who do believe it will read the following with an
open heart and an open mind. Above all, I urge every reader to check each Sc
ripture presented and then check the context that the Scriptures are quote
d in by reading at least ten verses before and ten verses after.
I sincerely believe the 憃nce saved always savedconcept to be wrong. The i
mplication that once someone becomes a 憆ealChristian (a definition would
be handy) they are saved and that they can抰 backslide or commit a sin which
would rob them of that inheritance.
From my experience, Christians can sin and they often do sin but to believe
that a Christian can live any way he or she likes, and still be saved, is da
ngerous. Some argue that a 憆ealChristian wouldn抰 commit these sins and i
t is the 慳lmost Christianswho fall foul of this type of entrapment from t
he enemy. I believe that would be wrong too. Committed Christians sin for al
l sorts of reasons and we are only saved by God抯 amazing Grace, not our lev
el of commitment. God knows our true heart!
If a Christian sins maliciously (deliberately breaks laws for his or her own
advantage say purchasing goods known, or strongly suspected, of being sto
len) that is quite different from accidentally sinning something we all do
constantly.
God knows our true intention. We might be able to fool a police officer that
we sinned accidentally, but God knows the real truth. I believe that if we
deliberately go against the direction given by Jesus (who, you will remember
, said to obey the laws of the land) then we must suffer the consequences
and that might mean the loss of eternal life. At least our Judge, while toug
h, is fair and understanding!
Let抯 look at this Scripturally
Jesus understood that when people heard the Word of God they would react in
different ways from total rejection to total acceptance. He explained it i
n 慣he Parable Of The Sower I have quoted the Matthew 13:3-23 Scripture he
re, but the same parable can also be found in Mark 4:1-20 and Luke 8:4-15.
Matthew 13:3-9:
3 Then [Jesus] told them many things in parables, saying: 揂 farmer went out
to sow his seed.
4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds cam
e and ate it up.
5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up q
uickly, because the soil was shallow.
6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered beca
use they had no root.
7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.
8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop a hundred,
sixty or thirty times what was sown.
9 He who has ears, let him hear.[NIV]
The Disciples wanted to know what this parable meant and Jesus explained.
Matthew 13:18-23
18 揕isten then to what the parable of the sower means:
19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand i
t, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is
the seed sown along the path.
20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who he
ars the word and at once receives it with joy.
21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or per
secution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who h
ears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth
choke it, making it unfruitful.
23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who h
ears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, si
xty or thirty times what was sown.[NIV]
For people who believe that 搊nce saved, always savedI rhetorically ask: h
ow do you relate your beliefs to Matthew 13: 20-21? If a man cannot lose his
salvation then why would Jesus say: 揥hen trouble or persecution comes beca
use of the word, he quickly falls away
The key to how we are saved is in John 3:16:
揊or God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.[NIV]
I understand that the word 慴elievesin the Greek is an on-going verb (this
is not so easy to determine because Greek is a contextual language). It rea
lly says that unless we keep on believing in Him we will perish and not have
everlasting life. We are saved by Grace as long as we keep on believing in
Him. Let抯 check another Scripture.
Mark 13:13 says:
[Jesus said] 揂ll men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to
the end will be saved.[NIV]
Look again at the second half of that sentence. Jesus is saying that to be s
aved you must stand firm (for Him) until you die. Conversely He is therefore
saying that those who do not stand firm will not be saved! Notice that I am
not quoting Paul or any other Apostle or Disciple, but the Son of God Himse
lf.
Was I saved when I was cursing God?
When I was quite young I gave myself to the Lord. I then drifted away from t
he church and from Jesus and ended up walking in a wilderness for 25 yea
rs. For 25 years I cursed Jesus and fought against Christianity. I 憇tudied
the Bible looking for 憌rongnessin it and read as many anti-Christian writ
ings as I could. I became an intellectually strong anti-Christian and could
debate, and win, with committed Christians in many areas, specially on early
church history. Guess you could say that I was like Saul, a zealot against
the Christians.
One day, in the fit of despair after being separated from my wife of 19 year
s, I asked 搕he Creator(my concept at that time) how I could get her back.
I heard an audible voice (which I instantly knew to be Jesus) say: 揃elieve
in Me It was mind blowing to say the least. I can understand the confusio
n Saul must have felt when he was slam-dunked to the ground by the very Pers
on he was persecuting. It was the same with me.
Was I 憇avedduring those 25 years of anti-Christian 憄reaching From my o
wn heart I can say a resounding NO. If I had died and gone to Heaven during
that period I would have screamed to be taken to Hell! Yet I had accepted Je
sus at a Youth For Christ rally when I was about 14. Saved forever, or not s
aved forever?
To the people who would say that I really wasn抰 saved when I was young I ju
st point them back to John 3:16. I did believe in the salvation of Jesus in
those early days I witnessed at school, I was very much involved with my l
ocal church, I even wanted to become a minister of religion when I grew up!
But, after five years, I backslid and not just a little way either! I fell
all the way into the pit and Satan had me fully in his grasp. Saved? No way
. The Lord gave us the power of freewill, and I had exercised mine to be a s
ervant of Satan. | l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 2 thanks for sharing. But hadn't the author repented at the end and became a "
true" believer of Jesus? So his/her personal story does support the belief
that "once saved, always saved".
sal
an
Sc
quote
i
which
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: Can you lose your salvation?
: Many people fervently believe that once saved, they can never lose their sal
: vation. I pray that those who do believe it will read the following with an
: open heart and an open mind. Above all, I urge every reader to check each Sc
: ripture presented and then check the context that the Scriptures are quote
: d in by reading at least ten verses before and ten verses after.
: I sincerely believe the 憃nce saved always savedconcept to be wrong. The i
: mplication that once someone becomes a 憆ealChristian (a definition would
: be handy) they are saved and that they can抰 backslide or commit a sin which
: would rob them of that inheritance.
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 3 Matthew 13:3-9 and Mark 13:13 are good answers to "Once Saved Always Saved"
"
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks for sharing. But hadn't the author repented at the end and became a "
: true" believer of Jesus? So his/her personal story does support the belief
: that "once saved, always saved".
:
: sal
: an
: Sc
: quote
: i
: which
| m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 4
"
一次得救永远得救？这个宣称有些极端，因为没有考虑到人的能动性和自由意志。
圣经说得救是靠恩典没错，可是圣经同时也把悔改作为接受恩典的前提条件。这种悔改
是一辈子的事情，直到人死去，就是说忍耐到底才能得救。
得救--任何人只要对耶稣基督的牺牲有信心，口里宣称他是主，愿意跟随他的教导，愿
意悔改罪，都可以得救。但要知道这样做以后，没有坚持自己的信仰到底，反倒退步了
，后来否认他，故意作恶，不听他的诫命，没能忍耐到底，就不能得救，不是吗？
有人要说，如果这样的话，这个人第一次受洗，就不是真的得救，是伪装的。怎么知道
他第一次受洗不是真心的呢？难道我们每个受洗的弟兄姐妹，我们都要来怀疑一下，你
是否是伪装的呢？有几个人能够自己决定，我自己不信耶稣的救恩，但是我不怕麻烦，
找牧师给我受浸吧？
问题是，这个人受浸以后，还能够由于某种原因，不再信，不信他的教导，不想遵守他
的诫命，有意无意的犯罪，改变了他的初衷。这样的人需要悔改，重新跟主订立圣约。
所以，一次得救，就永远得救，并非来自圣经的教导，是推理出来的。对基督徒的成圣
努力悔改不能起到帮助作用，反倒引起误解，使有些人觉得，信了主，怎样的行为都可
以，都没有关系了。
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: thanks for sharing. But hadn't the author repented at the end and became a "
: true" believer of Jesus? So his/her personal story does support the belief
: that "once saved, always saved".
:
: sal
: an
: Sc
: quote
: i
: which
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 5 Good example to defute "on saved always saved"
Some "born again" have no root in their heart. That's why Calvinists kept d
oing bad things on this board.
马 太 福 音 Matthew
13:20 [hgb] 撒 在 石 头 地 上 的 ， 就 是 人 听 了 道 ， 当 下 欢 喜 领
受
。
[kjv] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is
he t
hat heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[bbe] And that which went on the stones, this is he who, hearing
the wo
rd, straight away takes it with joy;
13:21 [hgb] 只 因 心 里 没 有 根 ， 不 过 是 暂 时 的 。 及 至 为 道 遭
了
患 难 ， 或 是 受 了 逼 迫 ， 立 刻 就 跌 倒 了 。
[kjv] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for
when
tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is off
ended.
[bbe] But having no root in himself, he goes on for a time; and
when tr
ouble comes or pain, because of the word, he quickly becomes full of doubts.
【在 m****a 的大作中提到】
:
: "
: 一次得救永远得救？这个宣称有些极端，因为没有考虑到人的能动性和自由意志。
: 圣经说得救是靠恩典没错，可是圣经同时也把悔改作为接受恩典的前提条件。这种悔改
: 是一辈子的事情，直到人死去，就是说忍耐到底才能得救。
: 得救--任何人只要对耶稣基督的牺牲有信心，口里宣称他是主，愿意跟随他的教导，愿
: 意悔改罪，都可以得救。但要知道这样做以后，没有坚持自己的信仰到底，反倒退步了
: ，后来否认他，故意作恶，不听他的诫命，没能忍耐到底，就不能得救，不是吗？
: 有人要说，如果这样的话，这个人第一次受洗，就不是真的得救，是伪装的。怎么知道
: 他第一次受洗不是真心的呢？难道我们每个受洗的弟兄姐妹，我们都要来怀疑一下，你
| h*o
发帖数: 1035 | 6 太 13:18 “所以，你们当听这撒种的比喻。 太 13:19 凡听见天国道理不明白的，那
恶者就来，把所撒在他心里的夺了去；这就是撒在路旁的了。 太 13:20 撒在石头地上
的，就是人听了道，当下欢喜领受； 太 13:21 只因心里没有根，不过是暂时的；及至
为道遭了患难，或是受了逼迫，立刻就跌倒了。 太 13:22 撒在荆棘里的，就是人听了
道，后来有世上的思虑，钱财的迷惑，把道挤住了，不能结实。 太 13:23 撒在好地上
的，就是人听道明白了，后来结实，有一百倍的，有六十倍的，有三十倍的。”
四种哪种是得救的？
d
领
is
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: Good example to defute "on saved always saved"
: Some "born again" have no root in their heart. That's why Calvinists kept d
: oing bad things on this board.
: 马 太 福 音 Matthew
: 13:20 [hgb] 撒 在 石 头 地 上 的 ， 就 是 人 听 了 道 ， 当 下 欢 喜 领
: 受
: 。
: [kjv] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is
: he t
: hat heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 7 another good example restating ezekiel 33:13 (When I shall say to the righte
ous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and co
mmit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his
iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.)
Luke 19:
11 众 人 正 在 听 见 这 些 话 的 时 候 ， 耶 稣 因 为 将 近 耶 路 撒 冷 ， 又
因 他 们 以 为 神 的 国 快 要 显 出 来 ， 就 另 设 一 个 比 喻 ， 说 ：
12 有 一 个 贵 胄 往 远 方 去 ， 要 得 国 回 来 ，
13 便 叫 了 他 的 十 个 仆 人 来 ， 交 给 他 们 十 锭 （ 锭 ： 原 文 作
弥 拿 约 银 十 两 ） 银 子 ， 说 ： 你 们 去 作 生 意 ， 直 等 我 回 来 。
14 他 本 国 的 人 却 恨 他 ， 打 发 使 者 随 後 去 ， 说 ： 我 们 不 愿
意 这 个 人 作 我 们 的 王 。
15 他 既 得 国 回 来 ， 就 吩 咐 叫 那 领 银 子 的 仆 人 来 ， 要 知 道
他 们 做 生 意 赚 了 多 少 。
16 头 一 个 上 来 ， 说 ： 主 阿 ， 你 的 一 锭 银 子 已 经 赚 了 十 锭
。
17 主 人 说 ： 好 ！ 良 善 的 仆 人 ， 你 既 在 最 小 的 事 上 有 忠 心
， 可 以 有 权 柄 管 十 座 城 。
18 第 二 个 来 ， 说 ： 主 阿 ！ 你 的 一 锭 银 子 ， 已 经 赚 了 五 锭
。
19 主 人 说 ： 你 也 可 以 管 五 座 城 。
20 又 有 一 个 来 说 ： 主 阿 ， 看 哪 ， 你 的 一 锭 银 子 在 这 里 ，
我 把 他 包 在 手 巾 里 存 着 。
21 我 原 是 怕 你 ， 因 为 你 是 严 厉 的 人 ； 没 有 放 下 的 ， 还 要
去 拿 ； 没 有 种 下 的 ， 还 要 去 收 。
22 主 人 对 他 说 ： 你 这 恶 仆 ， 我 要 凭 你 的 口 定 你 的 罪 。 你
既 知 道 我 是 严 厉 的 人 ， 没 有 放 下 的 ， 还 要 去 拿 ， 没 有 种 下 的
， 还 要 去 收 ，
23 为 甚 麽 不 把 我 的 银 子 交 给 银 行 ， 等 我 来 的 时 候 ， 连 本
带 利 都 可 以 要 回 来 呢 ？
24 就 对 旁 边 站 着 的 人 说 ： 夺 过 他 这 一 锭 来 ， 给 那 有 十 锭
的 。
25 他 们 说 ： 主 阿 ， 他 已 经 有 十 锭 了 。
26 主 人 说 ： 我 告 诉 你 们 ， 凡 有 的 ， 还 要 加 给 他 ； 没 有 的
， 连 他 所 有 的 也 要 夺 过 来 。 | R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 8 those who hears the gospel and understands it.
Matthew 13:23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears
the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a
hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
Calvinists are those were snatched away be evil.
Matthew 13:19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not u
nderstand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their he
art. This is the seed sown along the path.
【在 h*o 的大作中提到】
: 太 13:18 “所以，你们当听这撒种的比喻。 太 13:19 凡听见天国道理不明白的，那
: 恶者就来，把所撒在他心里的夺了去；这就是撒在路旁的了。 太 13:20 撒在石头地上
: 的，就是人听了道，当下欢喜领受； 太 13:21 只因心里没有根，不过是暂时的；及至
: 为道遭了患难，或是受了逼迫，立刻就跌倒了。 太 13:22 撒在荆棘里的，就是人听了
: 道，后来有世上的思虑，钱财的迷惑，把道挤住了，不能结实。 太 13:23 撒在好地上
: 的，就是人听道明白了，后来结实，有一百倍的，有六十倍的，有三十倍的。”
: 四种哪种是得救的？
:
: d
: 领
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 9 John Calvin did not understand the good news of millennial kingdom.
"Calvin regarded premillennialism as a "fiction" that is "too puerile to nee
d or to deserve refutation."
hears
a
u
he
【在 R*o 的大作中提到】
: those who hears the gospel and understands it.
: Matthew 13:23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears
: the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a
: hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
: Calvinists are those were snatched away be evil.
: Matthew 13:19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not u
: nderstand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their he
: art. This is the seed sown along the path.
|
|
