s*********5
发帖数: 5637 | 1 这篇NYT文章说出了我的心声: Asians: Too Smart for Their Own Good?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
北大在他的文章中说没有数据证明亚裔在藤校录取时被歧视。这是几个他要的证据：
证据1：在没有族裔考量的要考试/面试才能进去高中，例如TJ亚裔的录取率远远高于藤校
亚裔的比例
“Consider that Asians make up anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of the student
population at top public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in
New York City, Lowell in San Francisco and Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria,
Va., where admissions are largely based on exams and grades.”
证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
“In a 2009 study of more than 9,000 students who applied to selective
universities, the sociologists Thomas J. Espenshade and Alexandria Walton
Radford found that white students were three times more likely to be
admitted than Asians with the same academic record.”
要进某些顶尖藤校，亚裔SAT要考1550分，白人1410分，而非裔只需要1100分。
(*Source: "No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite
College Admission and Campus Life" by Thomas Espenshade (Princeton
University Press, 2009)
证据3：
Right-wing billionaire Ron Unz, in his contribution, notes that the
percentage of Asian Americans enrolled at Harvard has surprisingly declined,
from 20.6 in 1993 to about 16.5 throughout most of the last decade. This is
in spite of the fact that the college age Asian American population has “
roughly doubled” over this period. Unz also cites other evidence that
indicates when admissions policies are race neutral, Asian Americans tend to
be accepted in numbers that reflect the growth of the Asian American
population.
证据4：
没有使用族裔考量的大学例如UC B和CalTech亚裔一般是40%，远远高于使用族裔考量的
藤校
这里这些主流媒体都对这个名校入学时亚裔受到逆向歧视的问题做了报道，北大可以一
篇一篇看下来。说亚裔没有被歧视让我的感觉是自己给自己脸上打耳光。
) The American Conservative, 11/28/2012. Read Ron Unz's article!
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-ame
2) Forbes, 11/30/2012, which strongly supported Unz' article
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2012/11/30/do-the-i
3) NY Times "Room for Debate", 12/19/2012, SB Woo was a participant
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/19/fears-of-an-asi
4) NY Times Op Ed, 12/20/2012, by Carolyn Chen
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
5) Business Insider, 12/20/12, "Ivies Discriminate Against Asians"
http://www.businessinsider.com/ivy-league-discriminates-against
6) The Atlantic, 12/21/2012, "Ivies Fair to Asian Americans? "
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/is-the-ivy-
7) Washington Monthly, 12/22/12, "Discrimination Against AsAm in Ivies"
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2012_12/dis
要说名校用其他非成绩的原因来录取学生，其实真有北大应用的文章里一个评论说的所
谓的“综合因素”其实就是潜规则的代名词。亚裔被卖了还要帮着数钱吗？
“Holistic admissions is commonly code words for favoring some groups over
others. Historically it meant keep out the jews because too many of them did
too well on academics. Currently it means keep out the "Asians", because
too many of them do too well. Other groups are to be favored. As long as
some groups are favored, some of the biggest victims will be those in the
favored groups who would have got in on strict merit.”
其实现在讨论这个问题我觉得真没什么意义了。大家该做的今年大家都已经尽力了 --
1.二，三月分时我们一个月内就争取到了五万个亚裔签名参加民调。民调结果：
http://www.80-20educationalfoundation.org/projects/colleges.asp
2.根据亚裔民调的结果，对高等法庭一案递交了法律之友的文书，现在就等着明年高等
法庭的裁决了。
法律之友文书的中文版：
http://www.80-20educationalfoundation.org/pdf/amicus-brief-chin
现在在这里讨论可能就只是辩论了吧。 | W******e
发帖数: 3319 | 2 从分数上讲， 当然是歧视亚裔。问题是白人自己建了个黑盒子， 这个黑盒子在发现人
才上还挺管用， 但没人知道里面是啥。 这个黑盒子还有个巨大的作用：白人的蛋糕一
块不少。
藤校
student
in
【在 s*********5 的大作中提到】
: 这篇NYT文章说出了我的心声: Asians: Too Smart for Their Own Good?
: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
: 北大在他的文章中说没有数据证明亚裔在藤校录取时被歧视。这是几个他要的证据：
: 证据1：在没有族裔考量的要考试/面试才能进去高中，例如TJ亚裔的录取率远远高于藤校
: 亚裔的比例
: “Consider that Asians make up anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of the student
: population at top public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in
: New York City, Lowell in San Francisco and Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria,
: Va., where admissions are largely based on exams and grades.”
: 证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
| o******l
发帖数: 4385 | 3 学习
藤校
【在 s*********5 的大作中提到】
: 这篇NYT文章说出了我的心声: Asians: Too Smart for Their Own Good?
: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
: 北大在他的文章中说没有数据证明亚裔在藤校录取时被歧视。这是几个他要的证据：
: 证据1：在没有族裔考量的要考试/面试才能进去高中，例如TJ亚裔的录取率远远高于藤校
: 亚裔的比例
: “Consider that Asians make up anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of the student
: population at top public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in
: New York City, Lowell in San Francisco and Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria,
: Va., where admissions are largely based on exams and grades.”
: 证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
| I*D
发帖数: 40035 | 4 看来还真有用学术精神灌水的，自惭形秽。。。
【在 o******l 的大作中提到】
: 学习
:
: 藤校
| l**n
发帖数: 7272 | 5 如果以merit为主录取学生，亚裔受歧视是毫无疑问的。这样的例子相当多。
BBS上的一些朋友对部分亚裔的缺点颇有诟病。比如，课后辅导，题海战术，不参加公
益，不融入主流等等。因此，他们觉得不能以merit为主，要多样化，要AA。
藤校
student
in
【在 s*********5 的大作中提到】
: 这篇NYT文章说出了我的心声: Asians: Too Smart for Their Own Good?
: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
: 北大在他的文章中说没有数据证明亚裔在藤校录取时被歧视。这是几个他要的证据：
: 证据1：在没有族裔考量的要考试/面试才能进去高中，例如TJ亚裔的录取率远远高于藤校
: 亚裔的比例
: “Consider that Asians make up anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of the student
: population at top public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in
: New York City, Lowell in San Francisco and Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria,
: Va., where admissions are largely based on exams and grades.”
: 证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
| n******e
发帖数: 1137 | 6 个人对法院的判决不报太大希望。就跟蒙郡的教学大纲一样，这是个政治问题。咱们人
数太少了。
藤校
student
in
【在 s*********5 的大作中提到】
: 这篇NYT文章说出了我的心声: Asians: Too Smart for Their Own Good?
: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
: 北大在他的文章中说没有数据证明亚裔在藤校录取时被歧视。这是几个他要的证据：
: 证据1：在没有族裔考量的要考试/面试才能进去高中，例如TJ亚裔的录取率远远高于藤校
: 亚裔的比例
: “Consider that Asians make up anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of the student
: population at top public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in
: New York City, Lowell in San Francisco and Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria,
: Va., where admissions are largely based on exams and grades.”
: 证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 7 This is simple.
What does TJ look for? Those young minds who want to excel in Science and
Technology. What do they have in common? High scores in standard tests.
Then ask youself, what fields would these students apply for college
admission? Liberal arts or science-based fields? Who are most likely their
competitors?
You can cite the SAT scores averages in college admission. But you might
want to investigate the distribution of Asian students in different fields
together with the SAT scores in those fields. SAT scores in political
science or religious studies might be 300 points below those in EE or CS.
Further, what are the SAT average for those students who are admitted due to
their families' connection/donation? What are the race of those students
admitted
based on legacy?
Back to TJ's case, look at the list of famous TJ alumni. How many are
Asians? And in what fields are their areas of expertise? Compare the answers
with the percentage of Asian students in TJ and the goal of TJ. What does
that tell you?
Blindly linking high SAT scores with high potential in one's future academic
or professional career would not convince me or many other logical minds.
Back to AA in college admission, if you think an Asian graduate would easily
replace another African American gradute when leading a group of
professionals or workers who are mostly African American, then by all means
abolish AA. Are we there yet?
Even a survey of this BBS board shows how many members dislike people with
color. And I guess the reverse might be true as well. Do you think reducing
the already slim chance of an African American student to attend a college
would help reverse the current trend of inequality? Or help the America as a
Nation to move forward? The Hispanic population will be a majority in the
years to come. Any Asian candidate to care for their needs and stand for
their rights? Look at the Congress. Can any Asian Congressman magically
solve the fiscal cliff problem?
None of the SAT tests asks the above questions, let alone tries to solve it! | U***J
发帖数: 5998 | 8 这和国内讨论的异地高考似是一个味道。既得利益的受惠者，当然都想维护自己的利益。 | f********7
发帖数: 2899 | 9 太对了。。。
益。
【在 U***J 的大作中提到】
: 这和国内讨论的异地高考似是一个味道。既得利益的受惠者，当然都想维护自己的利益。
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 10 One choice to prove the talents of Asian students: set up an all Asian
university like what the Jews did. Asian parents donate to the university or
just pay the $4w tuition each year. Hire Asian professors or ask them to
donate their time. Ask Asian companies or companies headed by Asian CEO's
for career development purposes.
Then in a decade or two, count how many Asian graduates from this university
are "leaders" or the pillar of each individual community. | | | U***J
发帖数: 5998 | 11 都是华人的学校，老中还真不去了。所以学校的多元性是必须的。
or
s
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: One choice to prove the talents of Asian students: set up an all Asian
: university like what the Jews did. Asian parents donate to the university or
: just pay the $4w tuition each year. Hire Asian professors or ask them to
: donate their time. Ask Asian companies or companies headed by Asian CEO's
: for career development purposes.
: Then in a decade or two, count how many Asian graduates from this university
: are "leaders" or the pillar of each individual community.
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 12 2011年1月的统计表明，UCLA和UC Berkeley的亚裔本科生比例高达40%和42%。加州亚裔
人口占总人口比例<15%。
Possible explanations of the 40+% enrollment from 15% population in CA:
1) Asians in CA prefer to stay in UC schools due to cheap in-state tuition
rate compared with out-of-state schools.
2) Asians have the highest enrollment in college among all races in general.
Remember, the Asian student % in Ivy school is close to 18% while the Asian
population in US is less than 5%. 18/5 is close o 40+/15.
If the data in CA proves that removing AA limitation would provide 40+%/15%
ratio in terms of enrollment rate over population percentage, then I would
say that Ivy League schools has already reached the same ratio: 17%/5%,
whether or not they use AA as a consideration factor. Removing AA as a
factor in Ivy League schools might not produce the expected 40+% enrollment
rate for Asian students therein.
People tried to argue that 18% in Ivy schools should be 40+% like that in UC
school. I could only say: It depends and it is highly unlikely.
Finally, as I said many times, relying on a set of data to pinpoint the
cause of a social problem is useless unless using a holistic approach! If
the solution were so obvious in plain sight, there would not have been so
many social problems!
证据4：
没有使用族裔考量的大学例如UC B和CalTech亚裔一般是40%，远远高于使用族裔考量的
藤校
【在 s*********5 的大作中提到】
: 这篇NYT文章说出了我的心声: Asians: Too Smart for Their Own Good?
: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
: 北大在他的文章中说没有数据证明亚裔在藤校录取时被歧视。这是几个他要的证据：
: 证据1：在没有族裔考量的要考试/面试才能进去高中，例如TJ亚裔的录取率远远高于藤校
: 亚裔的比例
: “Consider that Asians make up anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of the student
: population at top public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in
: New York City, Lowell in San Francisco and Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria,
: Va., where admissions are largely based on exams and grades.”
: 证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 13 Interesting data. Again, the focus is on academic record ALONE. That might
work in China, but not in the US. The same authors should conduct a follow-
up study of the same 9,000 students after a decade or two to prove or
disprove the selection criteria used by the adminission offices were wrong.
They might need another set of criteria to define the concept of SUCCESS
after college.
Further, selective universities chose their standards or rules according to
their own needs and concerns. The best way to prove them wrong is to donate
more money or to bring more leaders to the society from the section which
these universities igored or denied. Jews eventually did that. Could the
Asian follow suit?
证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
“In a 2009 study of more than 9,000 students who applied to selective
universities, the sociologists Thomas J. Espenshade and Alexandria Walton
Radford found that white students were three times more likely to be
admitted than Asians with the same academic record.”
【在 s*********5 的大作中提到】
: 这篇NYT文章说出了我的心声: Asians: Too Smart for Their Own Good?
: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
: 北大在他的文章中说没有数据证明亚裔在藤校录取时被歧视。这是几个他要的证据：
: 证据1：在没有族裔考量的要考试/面试才能进去高中，例如TJ亚裔的录取率远远高于藤校
: 亚裔的比例
: “Consider that Asians make up anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of the student
: population at top public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in
: New York City, Lowell in San Francisco and Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria,
: Va., where admissions are largely based on exams and grades.”
: 证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
| G****6
发帖数: 4291 | 14 SAT不是录取的唯一依据，不能单纯比较SAT而得出“歧视”的结论。学生群体的多元化
/本地倾斜也是录取学生的两个重要因素。 | r*******n
发帖数: 310 | 15 Beida101,
Do not agree with you some of your points:
1. No AA does not mean only SAT and GPA as merit. Why 没有使用族裔考量的大学
例如UC B, UCLA和CalTech亚裔一般是40%，远远高于使用族裔考量的藤校? I do not
think UCB, UCLA and CalTech only look at your SAT and GPA; they look at the
applicant's package as a whole (the same as the Ivy's do) except race.
2. TJ's case, look at the list of famous TJ alumni. I indeed looked the list
of TJ’s famous alumni at the Wikipedia, at least 5 out 15, or 33% are
Asian; it is not bad if considering the percentage of Asian students was
actually much lower than those in recent years. It is kind of shame that to
see that some Asian have to choose either to change the last name and race
or to be discriminated.
their
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: This is simple.
: What does TJ look for? Those young minds who want to excel in Science and
: Technology. What do they have in common? High scores in standard tests.
: Then ask youself, what fields would these students apply for college
: admission? Liberal arts or science-based fields? Who are most likely their
: competitors?
: You can cite the SAT scores averages in college admission. But you might
: want to investigate the distribution of Asian students in different fields
: together with the SAT scores in those fields. SAT scores in political
: science or religious studies might be 300 points below those in EE or CS.
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 16 For the first one, the cited data were used to discuss the effect of AA on
admission rate, not the effect of SAT or GPA.
For the second one, who are the 5?
the
list
to
【在 r*******n 的大作中提到】
: Beida101,
: Do not agree with you some of your points:
: 1. No AA does not mean only SAT and GPA as merit. Why 没有使用族裔考量的大学
: 例如UC B, UCLA和CalTech亚裔一般是40%，远远高于使用族裔考量的藤校? I do not
: think UCB, UCLA and CalTech only look at your SAT and GPA; they look at the
: applicant's package as a whole (the same as the Ivy's do) except race.
: 2. TJ's case, look at the list of famous TJ alumni. I indeed looked the list
: of TJ’s famous alumni at the Wikipedia, at least 5 out 15, or 33% are
: Asian; it is not bad if considering the percentage of Asian students was
: actually much lower than those in recent years. It is kind of shame that to
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 17 I knew one case:
A Russian Jew came to the U.S. He and his father and grandfather were all
physicist in Russian. But due to his lack of English communication skills,
he could not find a job as a physicist. And to join a U.S. company as a
software engineer, he had to change his last name because his boss told him
either an American last name or no job offer. He complied. Now his son is
studying at an Ivy League school, not physics, but political science with
the goal of attending law school later on. His last name is the same
American name. | r*******n
发帖数: 310 | 18 1. My point is: the merit of Asian students is not only at SAT and GPA, they
show merits as a whole package except at race.
2. List 5:
Jose Llana, Filipino-American;
Anthony Myint, son of Chinese parents;
Greg Yuchang Tseng, Chinese (Taiwan);
Thao Nguyen, Vietnamese American
S. R. Sidarth, Indian American
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: For the first one, the cited data were used to discuss the effect of AA on
: admission rate, not the effect of SAT or GPA.
: For the second one, who are the 5?
:
: the
: list
: to
| r*******n
发帖数: 310 | 19 Two TJ "Chinese" students of Class 2012 admitted to MIT, look at the SAT and
other things, very interesting.
,
him
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: I knew one case:
: A Russian Jew came to the U.S. He and his father and grandfather were all
: physicist in Russian. But due to his lack of English communication skills,
: he could not find a job as a physicist. And to join a U.S. company as a
: software engineer, he had to change his last name because his boss told him
: either an American last name or no job offer. He complied. Now his son is
: studying at an Ivy League school, not physics, but political science with
: the goal of attending law school later on. His last name is the same
: American name.
| G*******9
发帖数: 4371 | 20 鼓掌！
藤校
student
in
【在 s*********5 的大作中提到】
: 这篇NYT文章说出了我的心声: Asians: Too Smart for Their Own Good?
: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-
: 北大在他的文章中说没有数据证明亚裔在藤校录取时被歧视。这是几个他要的证据：
: 证据1：在没有族裔考量的要考试/面试才能进去高中，例如TJ亚裔的录取率远远高于藤校
: 亚裔的比例
: “Consider that Asians make up anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of the student
: population at top public high schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science in
: New York City, Lowell in San Francisco and Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria,
: Va., where admissions are largely based on exams and grades.”
: 证据2. 2009年的一个研究发现同等成绩的亚裔和白人，白人比亚裔录取率高三倍
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 21 1. Every other candidates were evaluated in the same way: the holistic
approach, which was kind of denounced by LZ due to the race factor. My
argument is against her implied vision that Ivy League should admit about 40
% Asian student based on the 5% national population base since CA schools
have admited 40% Asian students based on the 15% state population.
2. Thanks. Good to know. Hope the list grows every year.
they
【在 r*******n 的大作中提到】
: 1. My point is: the merit of Asian students is not only at SAT and GPA, they
: show merits as a whole package except at race.
: 2. List 5:
: Jose Llana, Filipino-American;
: Anthony Myint, son of Chinese parents;
: Greg Yuchang Tseng, Chinese (Taiwan);
: Thao Nguyen, Vietnamese American
: S. R. Sidarth, Indian American
|
|
