m*****i
发帖数: 1873 | 1 pocket QQ.
one loose buy bet 30$ , another one called, I just called my QQ on the
button.
flop 10 37 no flush draw.
the one bet before the flop keep betting 40$, another one all in 120$ just
in front of me.
What can I do?
Obviously I think I got him beat, but Kind of afraid of the first guy , he
may get KK or AA.
hesitate a long time.
Then I just called, the bettor before the flop folded. and the all in guy
showed his JJ!
turn is nothing, river is J!!!!!!
and one player said he folded a J alread | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 2 这牌俺肯定不会call他的all in, QQ fold难受，可是也毕竟还啥也不是啊？
losse的那小子就算没AA，KK，有个AK什么的后来凑成对也很可能啊。
那个all in的desperate了，赌一把89(suited or not pre flop) open ended也难说，
更何况可能是set, 2 pairs,...
说白了QQ其实很弱，连个straight draw都没有。
【在 m*****i 的大作中提到】
: pocket QQ.
: one loose buy bet 30$ , another one called, I just called my QQ on the
: button.
: flop 10 37 no flush draw.
: the one bet before the flop keep betting 40$, another one all in 120$ just
: in front of me.
: What can I do?
: Obviously I think I got him beat, but Kind of afraid of the first guy , he
: may get KK or AA.
: hesitate a long time.
| m*****i
发帖数: 1873 | 3 This is a simple question.
if he got set , he will not all in for that safe flop ( only straight draw
possible) and the chance if very low for 89 call 30$ bf flop.
He might have KK or AA but he probably reraised before flop.
if player only got a draw, like 89 or AK to hit, it will be a good call for
me. (obey poker theory, when you are leading, it is a good call )
The only thing I am afraid is the first guy really have KK or AA, but
sometime you have to gamble, and fact prove I made the perfect | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 4 呵呵，别急，说“有个AK什么的后来凑成对也很可能啊”的是指头一个loose的那个，
他pre-flop bet $30, flop $40, ...这是很常见的bet法啊？
象QQ，JJ这种看着好看，实际却比较“老二”的牌，俺是一般会很小心的。你position
还在他俩后面，fold了也就是损失$30而已。
for
if
or
【在 m*****i 的大作中提到】
: This is a simple question.
: if he got set , he will not all in for that safe flop ( only straight draw
: possible) and the chance if very low for 89 call 30$ bf flop.
: He might have KK or AA but he probably reraised before flop.
: if player only got a draw, like 89 or AK to hit, it will be a good call for
: me. (obey poker theory, when you are leading, it is a good call )
: The only thing I am afraid is the first guy really have KK or AA, but
: sometime you have to gamble, and fact prove I made the perfect
| m*****i
发帖数: 1873 | 5 for the AK hand, I am talking about the loose guy too.
if he had AK, why you worried ? You like his calling because he is far
behind.
that is true if I folded I only lost 30$, but based on what I did the
analysis, very possilbe I am leading them a lot. there is no way to fold
although I only have one pair.
I called QQ 3 hundred before for a flop 2 7 10 because I am pretty sure the
opponent is bluffing me.
For this hand if the river 5% didn't show up, I got profit 70+150=220.
and I risk so little | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 6
站在Mr. Loose的角度，他这么玩完全合理，(如果他真是)有这手牌，pre-flop bet $
30, flop没什么情况，再bet $40不露怯而已。结果碰见强硬的ALL IN，FOLD了很正常
，如果有AA，KK倒不会了。BTW，怀疑他连AK都没有。
老大，你的分析是建立在你自己的角度，对手的分析可能恰恰和你相反(还不包括他冒
险或者BLUFF的成分)，这也是POKER为什么有趣的所在，如果大家读的都是一本经书，
算的都是一个概率，那WSOP的冠军是电脑而不是人了。
the
有经验的因素，但是每把牌都是不一样的。
这是建立在你已经知道他只是JJ的前提下，他还觉得自己这么BET挺合理的呢。这种甲
had乙until the river的情况不是天天见么？更何况你俩谁也不知道谁手里的牌，也不
知道外面已经FOLD掉另一个J。
祝你明天好运气，呵呵。
【在 m*****i 的大作中提到】
: for the AK hand, I am talking about the loose guy too.
: if he had AK, why you worried ? You like his calling because he is far
: behind.
: that is true if I folded I only lost 30$, but based on what I did the
: analysis, very possilbe I am leading them a lot. there is no way to fold
: although I only have one pair.
: I called QQ 3 hundred before for a flop 2 7 10 because I am pretty sure the
: opponent is bluffing me.
: For this hand if the river 5% didn't show up, I got profit 70+150=220.
: and I risk so little
| m*****i
发帖数: 1873 | 7 I just said, I made a good play and got a very bad beat , say 2 outs.
I agree with you first one had KA.
but before you fold because he may have AK and the second one may have set
or straight draw.
That point I totally disagree. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 8 其实俺想了想，讨论的其实是两个问题：
1)手里QQ，一个持续在pre-flop, flop (10 7 3，no flush draw)强势bet $30, $40,
另一个突然跳进来$120 ALL IN的情况下，应不应该CALL？(俺个人认为不值，仁者见仁
)；俺猜你可能注意力更多的集中在那个LOOSE的家伙身上了，ALL IN的家伙可能也是主
要针对他，结果他反而跑了，你两个反倒是heads up；
2)CALL了，结果输给(若干可能输的情况中的)一个很小概率事件冤不冤？比较冤，但是
考虑到一，也只能认倒酶了。
有个额外问题请教 ？如果他没ALL IN或者FOLD了，你会怎么样？呵呵，好奇你的风格
而已。
【在 m*****i 的大作中提到】
: I just said, I made a good play and got a very bad beat , say 2 outs.
: I agree with you first one had KA.
: but before you fold because he may have AK and the second one may have set
: or straight draw.
: That point I totally disagree.
| m*****i
发帖数: 1873 | 9 I will just call, since I have position.
But that case, I probably got trapped already. | l********r
发帖数: 868 | 10 On recent TV show, QQs beat AAs several times like this. I think it's US
champ poker.
【在 m*****i 的大作中提到】
: pocket QQ.
: one loose buy bet 30$ , another one called, I just called my QQ on the
: button.
: flop 10 37 no flush draw.
: the one bet before the flop keep betting 40$, another one all in 120$ just
: in front of me.
: What can I do?
: Obviously I think I got him beat, but Kind of afraid of the first guy , he
: may get KK or AA.
: hesitate a long time.
| | | l********r
发帖数: 868 | 11 yeah, my guess is fryking would fold a lot of big hands in NL. I don't
suggest him to go to higher stake table yet. If one is identified as weak
tight, he'll definitelly get slaughtered.
for
if
or
【在 m*****i 的大作中提到】
: This is a simple question.
: if he got set , he will not all in for that safe flop ( only straight draw
: possible) and the chance if very low for 89 call 30$ bf flop.
: He might have KK or AA but he probably reraised before flop.
: if player only got a draw, like 89 or AK to hit, it will be a good call for
: me. (obey poker theory, when you are leading, it is a good call )
: The only thing I am afraid is the first guy really have KK or AA, but
: sometime you have to gamble, and fact prove I made the perfect
| l********r
发帖数: 868 | 12 I have nothing to say. You can ask any pro in WSOP. Nobody would be afraid
of AK in this case.
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 其实俺想了想，讨论的其实是两个问题：
: 1)手里QQ，一个持续在pre-flop, flop (10 7 3，no flush draw)强势bet $30, $40,
: 另一个突然跳进来$120 ALL IN的情况下，应不应该CALL？(俺个人认为不值，仁者见仁
: )；俺猜你可能注意力更多的集中在那个LOOSE的家伙身上了，ALL IN的家伙可能也是主
: 要针对他，结果他反而跑了，你两个反倒是heads up；
: 2)CALL了，结果输给(若干可能输的情况中的)一个很小概率事件冤不冤？比较冤，但是
: 考虑到一，也只能认倒酶了。
: 有个额外问题请教 ？如果他没ALL IN或者FOLD了，你会怎么样？呵呵，好奇你的风格
: 而已。
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 13 lol, sounds like a pro. how much have you played? hehe, big hands don't mean
winning hands.
【在 l********r 的大作中提到】
: yeah, my guess is fryking would fold a lot of big hands in NL. I don't
: suggest him to go to higher stake table yet. If one is identified as weak
: tight, he'll definitelly get slaughtered.
:
: for
: if
: or
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 14 不好意思，你就吹吧。
【在 l********r 的大作中提到】
: I have nothing to say. You can ask any pro in WSOP. Nobody would be afraid
: of AK in this case.
| l********r
发帖数: 868 | 15 You're on tilt now. From your posts (the $720 one and the ones before), I
have to point out you're a mediocre player. I don't believe you've read any
bood about poker's fundamental math, because you don't even use common terms
to describe and analyze your hands. Trust me, your view about poker would
completely change after you read any good book. If you read my posts on this
board, you'll see I never take anything personal. I just want to point it
out for you and it's your money at risk.
I alway
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: lol, sounds like a pro. how much have you played? hehe, big hands don't mean
: winning hands.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 16 呵呵，谢谢，俺都还不认为自己是mediocre player，而是beginner，跟melonli都还自
称新手。
说实话，看了一些你的帖子，挺纸上谈兵的，类似这种读了两本书，看了ESPN，玩了2
天POKER就出来suggest别人的(抱歉，非恶意)，真是有点自以为是赵括的感觉。比如
melonli QQ这手，俺今天下午闲聊给公司里三个当初领俺入门的师父听，没有一个说应
该CALL的。
你以为每天和melonli或者其他赌场玩NL的人都是傻子？你真能分析到你想象中的近似
程度？呵呵，其实他们也是这么想的, always respect your opponents，俺觉得把对
手看高一点保险。
any
terms
this
job.
【在 l********r 的大作中提到】
: You're on tilt now. From your posts (the $720 one and the ones before), I
: have to point out you're a mediocre player. I don't believe you've read any
: bood about poker's fundamental math, because you don't even use common terms
: to describe and analyze your hands. Trust me, your view about poker would
: completely change after you read any good book. If you read my posts on this
: board, you'll see I never take anything personal. I just want to point it
: out for you and it's your money at risk.
: I alway
| l********r
发帖数: 868 | 17 纸上谈兵出去会死得很惨，这点我同意。其实我现在都后怕，当时就读了点书，怎么就
能赢呢？那次运气也不是特别好，我的结论就是对手太差，以后不一定有那么幸运的事
情了。
melonli帖出来的hands，很多我们只能就事而论，他试图尽量加一些关于对手的印象等
，这时候就可以考虑这些因素，进行变通了。其实好的书，没有只谈数学的，无论如何
强调当时的筹码，位置，对手情况都是不为过的。从这个意义上来说，follow这样的书
的指导，其实是不错的。
我印象比较深的是David的以错误换错误论，以及完美理论不存在论。中间很多东西都
是很有道理的。我其实是非常注重书本和实际的偏差，才对real money play如此慎重
的。电视上的也一样，WSOP几乎是最坏的教材，因为剪切的很厉害。
举个例子，那天我好不容易和melonli有了一次玩的机会，虽然是play money，但我尽
量当作真钱（但实际做不到了，首先他的玩法会因为这是假钱而有很大偏差）。我相信
melonli一开始是认可我有一定实力的，因为我在板上分析过他的很多牌。但是一开始
，我基本上都是在preflop或flop上fold，他当然有bl
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵，谢谢，俺都还不认为自己是mediocre player，而是beginner，跟melonli都还自
: 称新手。
: 说实话，看了一些你的帖子，挺纸上谈兵的，类似这种读了两本书，看了ESPN，玩了2
: 天POKER就出来suggest别人的(抱歉，非恶意)，真是有点自以为是赵括的感觉。比如
: melonli QQ这手，俺今天下午闲聊给公司里三个当初领俺入门的师父听，没有一个说应
: 该CALL的。
: 你以为每天和melonli或者其他赌场玩NL的人都是傻子？你真能分析到你想象中的近似
: 程度？呵呵，其实他们也是这么想的, always respect your opponents，俺觉得把对
: 手看高一点保险。
:
| m*****i
发帖数: 1873 | 18 very good point.
but you need the winning money to prove what you got.
There were much $ to spend to get the experience.
But after that, you will win consistently.
I am learning everyday.( because I am single and with much time to spend:) | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 19 谢谢你那么好的长文，观点都完全同意，值得多看几遍，建议斑竹M，呵呵。
实战里俺比较看重心理因素，也许是胆子不够大吧，临场确实千变万化，真正能处乱不
惊，持续以自己原则玩的定力要求很高很高，比如上次输给俺的那个老中(或者亚裔)，
开始2小时俺不得不佩服他的确水平比俺高很多，结果和俺那把误判或者是赢顺了太贪
心了(其实俺的ACTION太明显，用意也可以说是写在脸上的，呵呵，自己都知道)，犯了
对他那个层次严重的错误。后来那手被人ALL IN砸死算点背。这两种情况之下完蛋，俺
都觉得他亏，不过水平真高的话，长期还是会UP的吧。
挺佩服melonli的，投入精神好，而且勇于把自己输的一些大牌拿出来给大家看，玩多
了见怪不怪的心理素质的境界可见一斑。
【在 l********r 的大作中提到】
: 纸上谈兵出去会死得很惨，这点我同意。其实我现在都后怕，当时就读了点书，怎么就
: 能赢呢？那次运气也不是特别好，我的结论就是对手太差，以后不一定有那么幸运的事
: 情了。
: melonli帖出来的hands，很多我们只能就事而论，他试图尽量加一些关于对手的印象等
: ，这时候就可以考虑这些因素，进行变通了。其实好的书，没有只谈数学的，无论如何
: 强调当时的筹码，位置，对手情况都是不为过的。从这个意义上来说，follow这样的书
: 的指导，其实是不错的。
: 我印象比较深的是David的以错误换错误论，以及完美理论不存在论。中间很多东西都
: 是很有道理的。我其实是非常注重书本和实际的偏差，才对real money play如此慎重
: 的。电视上的也一样，WSOP几乎是最坏的教材，因为剪切的很厉害。
| k******t
发帖数: 257 | 20 It seems a bad beat but I would not be upset by the content if I were you.
First he got not much money, if he plays he will be commited, no sense to
flat call.
Better off get some isolation to get head-up hopefully.
Commerce is full with fishes although I only stayed a copule days there. I
saw a lot of players simply can't let go with top pair let alone with
something draws along with it. I still remmbered a painful hand there, Got
AK in middle, raise some and called by 4 as usual, flopped AK3 r
【在 m*****i 的大作中提到】
: pocket QQ.
: one loose buy bet 30$ , another one called, I just called my QQ on the
: button.
: flop 10 37 no flush draw.
: the one bet before the flop keep betting 40$, another one all in 120$ just
: in front of me.
: What can I do?
: Obviously I think I got him beat, but Kind of afraid of the first guy , he
: may get KK or AA.
: hesitate a long time.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 21 hehe, interesting.
the
I
【在 k******t 的大作中提到】
: It seems a bad beat but I would not be upset by the content if I were you.
: First he got not much money, if he plays he will be commited, no sense to
: flat call.
: Better off get some isolation to get head-up hopefully.
: Commerce is full with fishes although I only stayed a copule days there. I
: saw a lot of players simply can't let go with top pair let alone with
: something draws along with it. I still remmbered a painful hand there, Got
: AK in middle, raise some and called by 4 as usual, flopped AK3 r
| l********r
发帖数: 868 | 22 那手牌他的kicker有问题，如果他前面意识到你是很谨慎的人，的确不应该push这么厉
害。
我觉得你是偏谨慎的，不容易输大的。不过有时候对手如果push you to the limit，
你也只能follow the odds，这种牌如果输了，要利用这个刚刚建立的image看看能不能
在后面找回来。
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 谢谢你那么好的长文，观点都完全同意，值得多看几遍，建议斑竹M，呵呵。
: 实战里俺比较看重心理因素，也许是胆子不够大吧，临场确实千变万化，真正能处乱不
: 惊，持续以自己原则玩的定力要求很高很高，比如上次输给俺的那个老中(或者亚裔)，
: 开始2小时俺不得不佩服他的确水平比俺高很多，结果和俺那把误判或者是赢顺了太贪
: 心了(其实俺的ACTION太明显，用意也可以说是写在脸上的，呵呵，自己都知道)，犯了
: 对他那个层次严重的错误。后来那手被人ALL IN砸死算点背。这两种情况之下完蛋，俺
: 都觉得他亏，不过水平真高的话，长期还是会UP的吧。
: 挺佩服melonli的，投入精神好，而且勇于把自己输的一些大牌拿出来给大家看，玩多
: 了见怪不怪的心理素质的境界可见一斑。
|
|
