d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 1 6MAX NL100
villain 25/21/8 in about 40 hands
Once he 10bb 3bet me with TJs and commit to another short stack
hero about 200bb stack and villain get me covered
here is the hand,
hero CO with KK, 3bb open,
villain 3bet to 9.5bb,
hero 4bet to 29.5bb,
villain 5bet to 60bb。
hero? |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 2 after his 5bet,哥想了好久，耳边回想起MM老湿说的“别丢老中的脸”，终于下定决
心flat call。
flop qxyr，villain pot size shove，哥有了非常不好的预感，但是耳边回想起MM老
湿说的“别丢老中的脸”，哥在最后一秒钟，勇敢地按下了call button，villain
shows AA。 |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 3 基本功不扎实 真心吃亏了
mm老湿 请教 如何面对疯3bet
有效筹码100bb，对手在哥身后疯狂3bet
在几次亮牌中，show出ATo之类的烂牌，然后哥开始有意识的4bet他，结果丫仍然用不
低的%，5bet回来，他的5bet range里包括JJ。5bet几乎就套池了。于是哥，开始用AQo
，6bet shove，撞到一把AA（尼玛）再然后哥就只拿AK/qq以上pull the trigger。后
面还有一手牌，他拿aa flat过我的4bet，哥的AK又是送出100bb。
哥有点无语了。加上输了几个70%的equity又输了几个30%的equity，哥的所有loss，几
乎是去同一个人的手里。
请问，面对这种情况，mm老湿一般是如何处理 |
|
s*****s
发帖数: 1130 | 4 谢谢大家的讨论,大家的意见对我都很有启发．
1. 3bet size
的确象wm说的一样，我3bet比较频繁，所以不愿意size太大．popo说的也有道理，deep
stack如果有大牌理论上应该是bet大一些．
2. 5bet
我没有5bet,和版主mm想得差不多．如果我5bet，基本就是commit了,如果对方有AA,KK
我have to pay him off, 但是对方的bluff牌基本是抓不到了． 还有一个原因，如果
我只是call 4bet, show some weakness, Villain with a monster hand may not
push as hard after flop, because he could be concerned that I fold instead
of pay him off. |
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H*T
发帖数: 43 | 5 Such a good post with detailed technical discussions!
Somehow I disagree with the "no 5bet" reasoning. If you only 5bet with QQ+,
of course villain can fold his worse hand and only calls with AK+. But
shouldn't you 5bet bluff with a small percentage (say 10-15%)? so that
villain will fold his better hand sometimes? This would boost your EV
tremendously.
As played, my intuition is to fold on river if villain is a decent player,
since he knows I wouldn't fold given c/c on the turn.
Perhaps the bes... 阅读全帖 |
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d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 6 来自主题: TexasHoldem版 - 一手QQ bobo兄 你以前一直在玩merge的25NL 6max，来说说这个player pool preflop 3bet/
4bet/5bet风格。
我打了一阵了，为什么我老觉得everyone is conservative on preflop reraise。
some loose guys always got punished by 4bet light being caught or fold to
5bet shove，再后来，所有人都不4bet light了，反而很多是flat 3bet。还是说这是
我的打法的原因，让我看不到他们的实际range。
请指教 |
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p******a
发帖数: 975 | 7 我的想法是这样的，欢迎chem老师来探讨一下。
2bb open的话就给BB一个非常好的odd。call 1bb to win 3.5bb pot。假设BB的牌是
Q3o，flop hit pair Q和2 pair+的概率接近20%。这本身就是一个+ev call了。同时因
为pot很小，意味着如果用45s，22之类的牌call的话imply odds很大，fold equity很
高。如果再考虑前面的位置也有人call的话，BB几乎可以+ev无脑call任何牌。同时
late position比如button可以非常cheap的3bet bluff，然后利用position玩postflop
。也使得early position opener很难打。根据thoery of poker,玩牌赢钱的方法是让
对手make wrong move。所以除非对手非常tight，不停fold to 2bb open（wrong move
），否则是很难赢钱的。
5bb open涉及到open range的问题。我也没有太想明白。极限的情况比如hero只open
QQ+和AK，遇到3bet就
4... 阅读全帖 |
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p******a
发帖数: 975 | 8 这里指的打赢了某个limit是说打赢了给定网站上这个limit的绝大多数reg。游戏指的
是NL 6max。当然，没有哪种判断方法是绝对准确的，WSOP main event的冠军几年以后
破产的多了去了。所有判断的方法都是建立在大量手牌的基础上的。
最可靠的方法当然是打100k+手牌，看自己的win rate。但是对于非pro来说，打100k手
牌可能要花大半年。假设我是新手，从NL4开始打，每次打满100k手牌盈利的话就升级
。那么即使有打赢NL400的实力，可能也要花三五年才意识到自己能打赢NL400。更可能
的情况是，本来有能力打赢NL400的，打了一年的NL4之后水平下降了很多，结果打不过
了……
同时，因为大多数网站NL10～NL50的抽水很高，可能你能打赢reg，但是打不赢抽水，
所以overall win rate还是负的。
我觉得比较靠谱的判断自己对其他reg是不是有edge的方法是，看自己能对对方造成压
力从而影响对方的判断，还是对方总能对自己造成压力使自己犯错。比如你在button
open，SB不停的3bet，最后你心烦意乱，preflop all-in wit... 阅读全帖 |
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d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 9 最近desktop的硬盘坏了 连着哥的脑子也有点秀逗了 没看明白mm老湿的问题。
下面郑重回答，mm老湿问的，拿什么来call这个btn的5bet
在abc情况下，100bb有效stack，鉴于btn是5bet 未知的cold 4 bettor，
online
微级别桌子，哥愿意把他的range估计在qq+／AK和极少的bluffing hands，这里哥的
calling range和对手的shoving range相同，另外，哥一般不用qq和ak在这里small
4bet，哥会either flat，或者直接4bet shove，从而避免拿qq和ak在这里crying call，
低级别桌子（nl50/nl100），一般或者未知对手，哥会把他放在KK＋和少量QQ，哥的
calling range是KK＋。另外，哥想了一下，一般情况下，哥只在这里用qq cold 4bet
small／fold，用KK＋/ak flat，fold其他的牌。遇到明显的好的spot，可能拿着any 2
cold 4bet／fold，拿着kk＋ 4bet/commit。
再高级别的桌子，木有经验，weakt... 阅读全帖 |
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p****0
发帖数: 611 | 10 这个5bet有个好处就是,villain觉得对付你可以用较宽的range 4bet small 作为起手
策略， 你5bet回去是要告诉他别拿这么宽的range来对付我, 除非你决定以后只拿top
range 和他搞下去。
deep
KK |
|
c**********o
发帖数: 213 | 11 这样的规则是由道理的，因为no limit game的bet size没有上限，但是一个street的
bet次数是有上限的（5bet cap），那么如果raise size没有下限限制，那么合伙打牌
可以轻易的用min raise kill action，这样所有的draw hand几乎都有足够的odd去
call，显然是不公平的作弊行为。 |
|
t*********d
发帖数: 3398 | 12 可怜啊
This morning I bet 3bb at button with TT, SB raised to 10bb, I 4bet to 40 bb
, SB 5bet all in,I called。 TT vs. AK， 被他单张A在river来了个flush，和你差
不多。
之前KK UTG bet 3bb, MP raised to 13bb and I called, flop Qd8d3， MP all in
and I called. He had AA.
NND, 最近大家都背。 |
|
t*********d
发帖数: 3398 | 13 拿到AA, 被人先3 bet, 再4bet,我flat call 先， 不信每次都能被人bad beat, flop donkey bet all in, 敌人忍不住还是call 了。
真实的思路： 我有AA， 旁边有人3bet, 如果是AK,那么big blinds基本也拿AA的可能为0。
Then:
1. 他如果KK/QQ, 并且稍微tight, 我5bet all in他可能fold, 如果我flat call, flop 只要没有Ace, 他必然all in, 我赢
2. 他如果4bet bluff，如果我5 bet,肯定fold了，如果我flat call,这种4 bet bluff的人应该是胆子贼大贼大的那种， flop 多半会c-bet, 一旦c-bet, 基本就pot committed, 我all in他多半call,我赢。
3. post-flop 如果被bad beat,就认了， 这年头， AA不被bad beat都不好意思发文章。 |
|
|
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 15 来自主题: TexasHoldem版 - 这才是真驴 no, i just folded and watched from BB, valuable info. i couldn't miss, it's
rare to see such action, 5bets and 3-way pre all-in.
the other 2 got JJ and AA, AA held up. |
|
f*f
发帖数: 121 | 16 hehe.. I probably spend less than 5% of the time studying, not on holdem
anyway. Even when I started playing, I never really read any strategy book,
just twoplustwo posts and talking to friends and thinking about hands
myself. I did a lot of EV line calculation when I was a beginner to make
sure my 4bet/5bet shove with A3o is better than folding against certain
opponent etc. I hardly ever review a hand these days, most of the hands I
save for review are hands that I thought was funny. like t... 阅读全帖 |
|
G********r
发帖数: 666 | 17 5bet AK/s is an great but advanced move. However, will an opponent playing
25NL have the discipline to fold KK? |
|
f*f
发帖数: 121 | 18 I got AKo the other day 200bb deep at 5/10,
Opp raise --- I am happy
3bet to 110
opp 4bet to 220 --- I am v happy
I 5bet to 480
opp 6bet allin for 1600 more
now I am a little worried, click option, reload 2k, call
opponent show AJo and didn't suck out. :) |
|
f*f
发帖数: 121 | 19 In higher stakes game, most players are fairly aggressive. Aggressive poker
is good poker right? Well.. not always true, but unless you are playing
against true maniacs, aggressive is usually right since we just don't make
that many strong hands in Holdem, you have to win your share of the pots
where no one has a strong hand to stay afloat of the rake and blinds.
So back to the topic, why you see AK being played so aggressively preflop by
most good players? Ready?...
Reason #1) It's a damn ... 阅读全帖 |
|
f*f
发帖数: 121 | 20 yeah.. I do that 99% of the time, although the games I played is much more
aggressive your average game probably. Nevertheless, if I sit down at 1c/2c
on pokerstars for some reason and was trying to play as well as I could be,
and some guy 4bet me and I have AK, unless it's like utg vs utg+1 or
something, I would 5bet shove with 100bb. |
|
n**********d
发帖数: 270 | 21 The prize for the top 3 of WSOP 2010 is 8.944, 5.545, and 4,129 mil. It is a
misplaced aggression on Choeng's part to 6bet w/ a marginal hand if he was
indeed thinking about prize differential btw 2nd and 3rd. I truly don't
think you can lay down AK or JJ three-handed. It is advanced technique but I
just don't think it is well thought when you were 3bet not to mention 5bet. |
|
p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 22 来自主题: TexasHoldem版 - 上来哭一哭 还好了， 具体情况？ position？ 4bet？ 5bet？ what's your opponent的stat？ |
|
t********t
发帖数: 5415 | 23 想stack他的话就flat 4bet，flop $50估计他也走了。如果5bet shove他呢？ |
|
h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 24 I would call or 4bet small (like 30bb), if someone 5bets, I'm folding～～
the postflop plan is:
1. check/fold if there's A
2. check or call if no K no A
3. happy if there's K
Actually I may even fold right here if someone's stat is really tight.
I guess I'm on the weak side. |
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 25
fold
3
my
I only lay down once in rush for KK, and it was a "bad laydown" since I
was against QQ. The reason I made the laydown is both of us are too deep(
both with 800+).
Not a bad play to go KK with 100BB deep, but for 200BB, laydown down BB
preflop is not bad after 4-5betting against a shove. Think from the appoach
of risk/reward, not just hand reading/pot odd. |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 26 觉得他就是represent AA，either 疯鱼一条 or 从高级别hu下来的，偶尔拿个rags
5bet shove，应该break even吧，我是说偶尔 |
|
p****t
发帖数: 292 | 27 My two cents.
It depends on stack size.
Check back on the turn gives you more chance to get an extra bet or 2 on the
river, that is a huge plus when you are not very deep.
But if you are indeed very deep, with effective stack of 1000$ for instance,
you probably want to bet the turn because you want him to check raise again
with a lower set and then you can shove the river. If the turn is checked
through, it is very tough for him to put in a 4bet or 5bet on the river even
with a set. |
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s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 28 讲NL 和PLO的optimal play的，大概是从10年夏天写到11年初的
我个人认为从数学角度讲，他讲的很棒，很完整。从理论角度
解决了我以前preflop 3/4/5 bet的疑惑。我个人决定使用这个
策略打一阵看看。原作者写得非常长，对没有NL数学理论基础的
人也能看。如果有了基础的人，可以跳着直接看结论。由于是比
较新的技术，对很多07，08年的策略进行了修改，应该算是与时
俱进。这几篇blog要是放到收费网站都得值不少钱，很多做视频
得coach讲的都不如这个系统。可以结合这些理论+牌例+看视频
里面其他的coach讲的postflop思路检查自己的leak。
NL 6-max optimal 3/4/5bet策略
http://en.donkr.com/Articles/Category/Optimal-3-bet--4-bet--5-b
这里的optimal PF基本上是研究透了6max 的PF策略，optimal的意思是
不管对什么样的对手你都没有办法被对方利用你的缺点，但是不是最好
的结果，最好的办法是exploitable的策略，意思就是你可以针对对手
进行不同... 阅读全帖 |
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p****t
发帖数: 292 | 29 Then you are turning your JJ/TT into bluff. Even worse, you force your
opponent to play optimally against you, that is, he'll 4bet hands that beat
you and fold hands that you beat. Occasionally, he'll decide to bluff 4bet
and succede.
I prefer flat calling with JJ/TT now and I pick other hands to bluff 3bet.
For example, I like to 3bet AQo/KQo when the raiser has a tight range and I
believe that I cannot profitably flat call with those hands. However,
because of the blockers I hold, I expect my ... 阅读全帖 |
|
h**n
发帖数: 981 | 30 跟各个名ID一起打压力太大，我这边没玩几局，小赢一些，在4-5k徘徊，女将和另一个
名ID（忘了，呵呵 ）带着1w多就过来了，很快把局面挑成pre-flop 4-5bet，然后就很
快出局了。 |
|
n***a
发帖数: 274 | 31 听说这样一手牌
villain A (not much read): 600+ UTG; hero: 600+ UTG+1; villain B (not much
read): 150, CO
preflop villain A: 10$, hero has a good read that he got big pair
hero 99, call;
villain B call:
flop J95r,
villain A bet $15, hero 3bet to $30, villain B 4bet to $60, villain A 5bet
to $160,
hero tank fold, villain B instant fold
问题:good fold? |
|
d******u
发帖数: 385 | 32 I played this hand, he seems to be a decent player with a lot of monster
showdowns. He came to the table for about 1.5 hrs and tripled his stack.
I mini raised with the purpose to build the pot. I actually was confused by
the 4bet from the old donkey. He even mucked his hand immediately after I
folded my hand. Of course, later on I took all this donkey's money. at that
moment, I thought there is no way the young guy can 5bet back with any over
pair. With my previous read on him that he was holdi... 阅读全帖 |
|
e*****e
发帖数: 119 | 33 Sup3rLuigi Posts SB 0.25
wolsok Posts BB 0.50
volcano68 Raised to 1.50
N3v3rF0rg3t Calls 1.50
ericcse- AsKc Raised to 6.50
Sup3rLuigi Folds
wolsok Folds
volcano68 Calls 5.00
N3v3rF0rg3t Calls 5.00
flop - 3s2hAd
volcano68 Checks
N3v3rF0rg3t Checks
ericcse Bets 11.00
volcano68 Raised to 22.00
N3v3rF0rg3t Folds
ericcse Calls 11.00
turn - Qd
volcano68 All In 34.27
ericcse All In 34.22
villain is decent, playing multiple tables. should I consider folding here?
========================
ericcse - KcAh ... 阅读全帖 |
|
e*****e
发帖数: 119 | 34 Sup3rLuigi Posts SB 0.25
wolsok Posts BB 0.50
volcano68 Raised to 1.50
N3v3rF0rg3t Calls 1.50
ericcse- AsKc Raised to 6.50
Sup3rLuigi Folds
wolsok Folds
volcano68 Calls 5.00
N3v3rF0rg3t Calls 5.00
flop - 3s2hAd
volcano68 Checks
N3v3rF0rg3t Checks
ericcse Bets 11.00
volcano68 Raised to 22.00
N3v3rF0rg3t Folds
ericcse Calls 11.00
turn - Qd
volcano68 All In 34.27
ericcse All In 34.22
villain is decent, playing multiple tables. should I consider folding here?
========================
ericcse - KcAh ... 阅读全帖 |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 35 换了个modem，网络终于正常。可又是悲摧的一天，心态还算好，几把牌可能有问题。
1 6k 33
2 4k 5.5 + 5.5 + 5.5
3 5k 11
4 5k 60 + 60
5 6.5k 33
6 freeroll
7 25k 11
8 35k 60
9 35k 33
1） AJo 20bb 3bet shove EP 2bb open, lost to qq, knockout
2） EP 5bb open, hero reraise to 11bb with AA, LP pro cold shove 110bb, EP
allin call, hero allin call, pro kk, EP TT, flop KTx, pro win, rebuy. 22
limp, flop 245r, set over set lost to the same TT guy, rebuy, 15bb aqo sb
pot squeeze, CO limp/call, flop kjxr, hero cbet pot size as... 阅读全帖 |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 36 4篇日记写下来，bankroll down了将近1k哈，今天又down 400，降级就在眼前，哥实在
是有点无奈。不过这也算是正常，本来学习就是要付出代价，这来回几千的对哥来说也
影响不到生活，相反的戒骄戒躁，该怎么玩就怎么玩，在哥看来才是更重要的，以此与
广大胸怀赌神梦想的有志宅男共勉。
05/27/13
1 4k 11 + 10
2 3k 60 + 55 + 55
3 3k 44 + 40
4 5k 11 + 11 + 11 + 11
5 10k 60
6 4k 33
1) AA win 100bb against JJ on QT2r 3bet flop. Villain is marked as overplay
fish. UTG limp, UTG+1 limp, MP min raise 2bb, BUTTON call, SB call, hero on
BB with KK pot size squeeze 12bb, MP flat, BUTTON flat, flop 456r, BUTTON
shove his rest 2x... 阅读全帖 |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 37 call pre and shove on his c bet on most flop.
or shove now.....
lose gracefully if he has AA. 别丢老中的脸..... |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 38 这贴连stake 都没有。 次奥。 太不地道了。
如果是不想BSO NL10000有200bb 的stack， 完全没必要哈。 我们热爱BSO,
intentional or unintentional |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 39 D神身先士卒给老中争光。 超级赞。 发个包子安慰一下。
=======================================================
Windstormm，您好：
您转给 dch1010,现金(伪币):10,收取手续费:0.1
同时附加了如下留言给 dch1010.
安慰包。 给老中长脸中不幸阵亡。
站务 |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 40 忘了说了 哥前40手牌的数据是42/23/5，没有4bet，AF>3 |
|
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 42 BSO 在NL100，40手内用超级maniac style double up stack.
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8 |
|
D********i
发帖数: 78 | 43 Dan Harrington has some interesting saying that never fold KK even if you
run into AA you can still dog him lol. |
|
l*******r
发帖数: 328 | 44 I've seen a guy all in preflop 400+ BB ran into AA with 500 BB and lost all
his stack. |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 45 cold 4bet 被5bet了有没有commit哈 |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 46 大哥 一定要赢下这个pot么 瀑布汗呐 即使你这把call对了 长期来讲也不一定是个+ev
的call啊，对手5bet shove mix适当的trash hand的还是非常reasonable的，plus你的
很少的cold 4bet，你就一定要抓住他的这个可能1/5或者1/6甚至更低的bluffing
range么。
再一次，瀑布汗呐
除非。。。当时有特别的table dynamic。。。 |
|
q****8
发帖数: 3281 | 47 It's an automatic 5bet shove to me. I think it is a routine for mid-stake as
nl600. |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 48 我utg limp，villain btn raise，BB 3bet shove，如果我4bet here，就把villain绝
大多数烂牌都赶走了。。。他虽然凶，但是不傻，你懂的
这种情况下，他如果再5bet shove，我就真接不住了，基本上落后他的range了。 |
|
p****0
发帖数: 611 | 49 嗯，学习了。 是不是对于这种polarized play，跟上3条街就是了？ 这样的line，
hero at river还是不知道自己是ahead 还是 behind啊。 是不是对手有大牌就认了？
长期来看，这样的line是+EV还是-EV?
我的想法是对于polarized play，尽早 narrow down villain's range， 比如PF 5bet
回去。长期来看，这样的line是+EV还是-EV? |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 50 这个因人而异了。 看对手有没有rebluff or 连续bluff 的能力。 live player 很喜
欢raise for info。 缺点是对手可以fold bluff hand, only continue better hand
， play perfectly against you. 个人感觉，对手越polarize，越不应该raise for
info. 对手如果value range 比较广倒可以考虑。 reraise 有时候会bluff 掉一点对
手的slightly better hand, 有时候freeze action 反而起到pot control 的效果。
打牌这东西，因为对手未知， range 会变，有时候没有绝对正确答案。
就这把牌来说， 对手A5 cold 4 bet， 我感觉as played 应该是最profitable 的。
这个river, 如果他miss 了， 对手应该很大% 会bluff, 。
？
5bet |
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