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Military版 - 对Nature 那篇文章的评论写得太好了
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相关话题的讨论汇总
话题: ye话题: nature话题: sec话题: author话题: olympic
进入Military版参与讨论
1 (共1页)
k**e
发帖数: 95
1
Lai Jiang 对 Nature 那篇 Why great Olympic feats raise suspicions 的评论。确
实是 well written with solid critical thinking. 大家看后也学习学习。
http://www.nature.com/news/why-great-olympic-feats-raise-suspic
这个网页上搜 Lai Jiang. 原文好像被 Nature 删了 (发指啊!), 不过大家评论里
都有引用。
T*******a
发帖数: 23033
2

链接不通,尼玛,不普世啊。

【在 k**e 的大作中提到】
: Lai Jiang 对 Nature 那篇 Why great Olympic feats raise suspicions 的评论。确
: 实是 well written with solid critical thinking. 大家看后也学习学习。
: http://www.nature.com/news/why-great-olympic-feats-raise-suspic
: 这个网页上搜 Lai Jiang. 原文好像被 Nature 删了 (发指啊!), 不过大家评论里
: 都有引用。

w******8
发帖数: 977
3
哈哈哈,被打脸后自己删贴,nature跟军版一样。

【在 k**e 的大作中提到】
: Lai Jiang 对 Nature 那篇 Why great Olympic feats raise suspicions 的评论。确
: 实是 well written with solid critical thinking. 大家看后也学习学习。
: http://www.nature.com/news/why-great-olympic-feats-raise-suspic
: 这个网页上搜 Lai Jiang. 原文好像被 Nature 删了 (发指啊!), 不过大家评论里
: 都有引用。

s*******r
发帖数: 261
z****n
发帖数: 5870
5
Lai Jiang said:
It is a shame to see Nature, which nearly all scientists, including myself,
regard as the one of the most prestigious and influential physical science
magazines to publish a thinly-veiled biased article like this. Granted, this
is not a peer-reviewed scientific article and did not go through the
scrutiny of picking referees. But to serve as a channel for the general
populous to be in touch with and appreciate sciences, the authors and
editors should at least present the readers with facts within proper context
, which they failed to do blatantly.
First, to compare a player's performance increase, the author used Ye's 400m
IM time and her performance at the World championship 2011, which are 4:28.
43 and 4:35.15 respectively, and reached the conclusion that she has got an
"anomalous" increase by ~7 sec (6.72 sec). In fact she's previous personal
best was 4:33.79 at Asian Games 20101. This leads to a 5.38 sec increase. In
a sport event that 0.1 sec can be the difference between the gold and
silver medal, I see no reason that 5.38 sec can be treated as 7 sec.
Second, as previously pointed out, Ye is only 16 years old and her body is
still developing. Bettering oneself by 5 sec over two years may seem
impossible for an adult swimmer, but certainly happens among youngsters. Ian
Thorpe's interview revealed that his 400m freestyle time increased 5 sec
between the age of 15 and 162. For regular people including the author it
may be hard to imagine what an elite swimmer can achieve as he or she
matures, combined with scientific and persistent training. But jumping to a
conclusion that it is "anomalous" based on "Oh that's so tough I can not
imagine it is real" is hardly sound.
Third, to compare Ryan Lochte's last 50m to Ye's is a textbook example of
what we call to cherry pick your data. Yes, Lochte is slower than Ye in the
last 50m, but (as pointed out by Zhenxi) Lochte has a huge lead in the first
300m so that he chose to not push himself too hard to conserve energy for
latter events (whether this conforms to the Olympic spirit and the "use one'
s best efforts to win a match" requirement that the BWF has recently invoked
to disqualify four badminton pairs is another topic worth discussing,
probably not in Nature, though). On the contrary, Ye is trailing behind
after the first 300m and relies on freestyle, which she has an edge, to win
the game. Failing to mention this strategic difference, as well as the fact
that Lochte is 23.25 sec faster (4:05.18) over all than Ye creates the
illusion that a woman swam faster than the best man in the same sport, which
sounds impossible. Put aside the gender argument, I believe this is still a
leading question that implies the reader that something fishy is going on.
Fourth, another example of cherry picking. In the same event there are four
male swimmers that swam faster than both Lochter (29.10 sec)3 and Ye (28.93
sec)4: Hagino (28.52 sec), Phelps (28.44 sec), Horihata (27.87 sec) and
Fraser-Holmes (28.35 sec). As it turns out if we are just talking about the
last 50m in a 400m IM, Lochter would not have been the example to use if I
were the author. What kind of scientific rigorousness that author is trying
to demonstrate here? Is it logical that if Lochter is the champion, we
should assume he leads in every split? That would be a terrible way to teach
the public how science works.
Fifth, which is the one I oppose the most. The author quotes Tucks and
implies that a drug test can not rule out the possibility of doping. Is this
kind of agnosticism what Nature really wants to educate its readers? By
that standard I estimate that at least half of the peer-reviewed scientific
papers in Nature should be retracted. How can one convince the editors and
reviewers that their proposed theory works for every possible case? One
cannot. One chooses to apply the theory to typical examples and demonstrate
that in (hopefully) all scenarios considered the theory works to a degree,
and that should warrant a publication, until a counterexample is found. I
could imagine that the author has a skeptical mind which is critical to
scientific thinking, but that would be put into better use if he can write a
real peer-reviewed paper that discusses the odds of Ye doping on a highly
advanced non-detectable drug that the Chinese has come up within the last 4
years (they obviously did not have it in Beijing, otherwise why not to use
it and woo the audience at home?), based on data and rational derivation.
This paper, however, can be interpreted as saying that all athletes are
doping, and the authorities are just not good enough to catch them. That may
be true, logically, but definitely will not make the case if there is ever
a hearing by FINA to determine if Ye has doped. To ask the question that if
it is possible to false negative in a drug test looks like a rigged question
to me. Of course it is, other than the drug that the test is not designed
to detect, anyone who has taken Quantum 101 will tell you that everything is
probabilistic in nature, and there is a probability for the drug in an
athlete's system to tunnel out right at the moment of the test. A slight
change as it may be, should we disregard all test results because of it? Let
âa‚¬a„¢s be practical and reasonable. And accept
WADA is competent at its job. Her urine sample is stored for 8 years
following the contest for future testing as technology advances. Innocent
until proven guilty, shouldn't it be?
Sixth, and the last point I would like to make, is that the out-of-
competition drug test is already in effect, which the author failed to
mention. Per WADA presidentâa‚¬a„¢s press release5,
drug testing for olympians began at least 6 months prior to the opening of
the London Olympic. Furthermore there are 107 athletes who are banned from
this Olympic for doping. That maybe the reason that âa‚¬&#
197;“everyone will pass at the Olympic games. Hardly anyone fails in
competition testingâa‚¬Â? Because those who did
dope are already sanctioned? The author is free to suggest that a player
could have doped beforehand and fool the test at the game, but this
possibility certainly is ruled out for Ye.
Over all, even though the author did not falsify any data, he did (
intentionally or not) cherry pick data that is far too suggestive to be fair
and unbiased, in my view. If you want to cover a story of a suspected
doping from a scientific point of view, be impartial and provide all the
facts for the reader to judge. You are entitled to your interpretation of
the facts, and the expression thereof in your piece, explicitly or otherwise
, but only showing evidences which favor your argument is hardly good
science or journalism. Such an article in a journal like Nature is not an
appropriate example of how scientific research or report should be done.
1 http://www.fina.org/H2O/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=1241
2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ETPUKlOwV4
3 http://www.london2012.com/swimming/event/men-400m-individual-medley/phase=swm054100/index.html
4 http://www.london2012.com/swimming/event/women-400m-individual-medley/phase=sww054100/index.html
5 http://playtrue.wada-ama.org/news/wada-presidents-addresses-london-2012-press-conference/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=wada-presidents-addresses-london-2012-press-conference
w*p
发帖数: 16484
6
乱码有点多
w****6
发帖数: 796
7
什么时候我能写出这么牛逼的论述啊
景仰!
s*****r
发帖数: 11545
8
是很牛,这个在法学院里都能拿A。
1 (共1页)
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相关话题的讨论汇总
话题: ye话题: nature话题: sec话题: author话题: olympic