s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | |
s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | 2 Josh says that during a routine F-22 training mission in February 2011, he
suddenly realized he was losing control.
Josh Wilson: Several times during the flight, I had to really concentrate,
immense concentration on just doing simple, simple tasks. Our training tells
you if you suspect something's probably going on, go ahead and pull your
emergency oxygen and come back home. When I did make that decision to pull
the emergency oxygen ring, I couldn't find it. I couldn't remember, you know
, what part of the aircraft it was in.
Jeremy Gordon: The onset of this is insidious. Some pilots will go the
entire mission, land, and not know anything went wrong. There was a publicly
announced incident of a jet in Alaska hitting a tree and the pilot was not
aware that he ran into a tree.
Lesley Stahl: I had heard that other pilots, because of their fears of
crashing from their own vertigo, whatever, that they're taking out
additional life insurance policies.
Josh Wilson: They are. Absolutely. We are waiting for something to happen.
And if it happens, nobody's going to be surprised. I think it's a matter of
time. |
k**0 发帖数: 19737 | |
s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | 4 2010年Alaska一起F-22A事故报告的全文,里面详细讲了Emergency Oxygen Ring的位置
和可能的问题:
http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_16%20Nov%2010.p
那起事故是F-22在5万尺高空超音速巡航的时候因为机械问题飞行员失去氧气,然后30
多秒没有任何动作,飞机以1.5倍音速撞到地上,装出一个大坑,飞行员尸骨无存,事
后发现emergency oxygen没有被启动。
最可耻的是官方事故原因是:飞行员失误。因为飞行员即使呼吸困难,也应该能打开紧
急供氧但是他没有做到。换句话讲就是:怕死就别当飞行员,死了也是你的错。 |
S***a 发帖数: 3956 | 5 这意思是说连”emergency oxygen ring“的设计都有问题么?到出问题的时候根本用
不上。
tells
know
publicly
【在 s*********0 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Josh says that during a routine F-22 training mission in February 2011, he : suddenly realized he was losing control. : Josh Wilson: Several times during the flight, I had to really concentrate, : immense concentration on just doing simple, simple tasks. Our training tells : you if you suspect something's probably going on, go ahead and pull your : emergency oxygen and come back home. When I did make that decision to pull : the emergency oxygen ring, I couldn't find it. I couldn't remember, you know : , what part of the aircraft it was in. : Jeremy Gordon: The onset of this is insidious. Some pilots will go the : entire mission, land, and not know anything went wrong. There was a publicly
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N*****m 发帖数: 42603 | 6 似乎是这样
【在 S***a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 这意思是说连”emergency oxygen ring“的设计都有问题么?到出问题的时候根本用 : 不上。 : : tells : know : publicly
|
s***c 发帖数: 1926 | |
p*********e 发帖数: 32207 | 8 不
如果我没听错,意思就是飞行员首先会出现缺氧症状
但当他们意识到自己缺氧的时候因为缺氧,
已经没有足够的认知能力去找到emergency oxygen ring的位置并开启它了
现在的问题是都不知道到底是氧气供应不足,还是供氧本身被poisoned
也找不到到底是什么引起任何一个可能的.
【在 S***a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 这意思是说连”emergency oxygen ring“的设计都有问题么?到出问题的时候根本用 : 不上。 : : tells : know : publicly
|
S***a 发帖数: 3956 | 9 emergency oxygen ring设计时候就应该放在足够显眼的位置,确保飞行员即使是在出
现缺氧症状时候也能找到并使用。否则这个东西的设计就是有问题。受害者家属完全就
这一点可以去告骡马。
【在 p*********e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 不 : 如果我没听错,意思就是飞行员首先会出现缺氧症状 : 但当他们意识到自己缺氧的时候因为缺氧, : 已经没有足够的认知能力去找到emergency oxygen ring的位置并开启它了 : 现在的问题是都不知道到底是氧气供应不足,还是供氧本身被poisoned : 也找不到到底是什么引起任何一个可能的.
|
p*********e 发帖数: 32207 | 10 现在他们怀疑可能不是缺氧,
而是供养系统有污染导致当飞行员意识到缺氧时已经情况非常严重了
采访里面就说有飞行员回来都记不得飞机上发生的事
【在 S***a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : emergency oxygen ring设计时候就应该放在足够显眼的位置,确保飞行员即使是在出 : 现缺氧症状时候也能找到并使用。否则这个东西的设计就是有问题。受害者家属完全就 : 这一点可以去告骡马。
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S***a 发帖数: 3956 | 11 那这就更应该去法院告了。典型的伪劣产品草菅人命啊。
【在 p*********e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 现在他们怀疑可能不是缺氧, : 而是供养系统有污染导致当飞行员意识到缺氧时已经情况非常严重了 : 采访里面就说有飞行员回来都记不得飞机上发生的事
|
p*********e 发帖数: 32207 | 12 嗯,你有空看下整个访谈吧
问题确实很严重
俩飞行员已经豁出去了.
【在 S***a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 那这就更应该去法院告了。典型的伪劣产品草菅人命啊。
|
s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | 13 解决hypoxia是根本问题,但是这个EOS设计把问题变得更严重了。
这个Ring要用40 lb的力才能拉动,如果拉不动拉了一半这个Ring从绳子上坠下去了,
几乎不可能找到。但是这个Ring那么小,只能用一个手指穿进去,拉一次拉不动是常事。
【在 S***a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : emergency oxygen ring设计时候就应该放在足够显眼的位置,确保飞行员即使是在出 : 现缺氧症状时候也能找到并使用。否则这个东西的设计就是有问题。受害者家属完全就 : 这一点可以去告骡马。
|
p*********e 发帖数: 32207 | 14 访谈里面一个飞行员说曾经遇到过情况
就是明明oxygen ring在很明显的地方,但要拉的时候就是怎么也想不起来在哪儿
这个太恐怖了
事。
【在 s*********0 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 解决hypoxia是根本问题,但是这个EOS设计把问题变得更严重了。 : 这个Ring要用40 lb的力才能拉动,如果拉不动拉了一半这个Ring从绳子上坠下去了, : 几乎不可能找到。但是这个Ring那么小,只能用一个手指穿进去,拉一次拉不动是常事。
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p********a 发帖数: 6437 | 15 bingo,
it is the lack of oxygen that led his being unable to recall where the ring
is (or how to pull).
【在 p*********e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 访谈里面一个飞行员说曾经遇到过情况 : 就是明明oxygen ring在很明显的地方,但要拉的时候就是怎么也想不起来在哪儿 : 这个太恐怖了 : : 事。
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s*****V 发帖数: 21731 | |
S***a 发帖数: 3956 | 17 我更好奇这么基本的问题是怎样通过国防部验收的。
【在 s*****V 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 没想到骡马这么大的公司能被这么一小问题噎住
|
s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | 18 今年3月份已经告了:
http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/03/12/44592.htm
Anna Haney filed suit Monday against Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Honeywell
International and Pratt & Whitney in Cook County Court, Ill. Her husband,
Capt. Jeff Haney, crashed his F-22 in November 2010 in Alaska, where he was
stationed at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson.
The cause of the crash has stirred controversy inside the Air Force. Its
Accident Investigation Board blamed the crash on Haney, even though
investigators wrote that the pilot "most likely experienced a sense similar
to suffocation" after the F-22’s Onboard Oxygen Generating System shut off.
Haney’s family disputed the accident report, alleging that the service had
used the pilot as a scapegoat in order to protect the much-maligned F-22
program.
【在 S***a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : emergency oxygen ring设计时候就应该放在足够显眼的位置,确保飞行员即使是在出 : 现缺氧症状时候也能找到并使用。否则这个东西的设计就是有问题。受害者家属完全就 : 这一点可以去告骡马。
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s*****V 发帖数: 21731 | |
p********n 发帖数: 2482 | 20 打补丁,像微软那样
【在 s*****V 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 主要是军方没钱了吧,不然骡马可以升级就是了
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b*******y 发帖数: 4304 | 21 This is becoming very interesting
the oxygen system on f22 is made by honeywell. However, the technology is,
at least 25 years old. And the equipment of oxygen generation, is
standardized on a lot of aircrafts.
USAF had checked across all tactical fleet of different models, like f18,
a10, etc, for the same oxygen issue, and found nothing.
of course, honeywell shrinks the same equipment for f22, to make it lighter
and smaller. someone doubts the re-design has some week point on components,
like wearing off much faster than old models.
【在 s*********0 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7407680n&tag=pop;videos : http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57428204-10391709/the-f-
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S***a 发帖数: 3956 | 22 你说反了,正是因为骡马始终不能把F22搞成一种有实用性的武器,军方才不得不撤掉
的订单。
【在 s*****V 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 主要是军方没钱了吧,不然骡马可以升级就是了
|
B*D 发帖数: 5016 | 23 this is bullshit
Quote
"F16的相关系统是“飞机氧气系统”:CRU79分子筛、CRU7984A氧气调节器、MBU-20P面罩、
HGC55P头盔、代偿背心抗荷裤
F22的则是“飞机氧气与生命保障系统”:CRU104/5A机载产氧,CRU106A呼吸调节器,HGU86P头
盔,MBU22P面罩,这几个主要的大头里没有一个是相同的。
F22这套东西设计时就定位于一套完整的、和武器系统结合的生命保障系统,复杂程度不是16那些东
西可比的。"
is,
f18,
lighter
components,
【在 b*******y 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : This is becoming very interesting : the oxygen system on f22 is made by honeywell. However, the technology is, : at least 25 years old. And the equipment of oxygen generation, is : standardized on a lot of aircrafts. : USAF had checked across all tactical fleet of different models, like f18, : a10, etc, for the same oxygen issue, and found nothing. : of course, honeywell shrinks the same equipment for f22, to make it lighter : and smaller. someone doubts the re-design has some week point on components, : like wearing off much faster than old models.
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s*****V 发帖数: 21731 | 24 现在我有点相信美帝自己都不会造土星五号了,老一辈高手退休了。现在这情形,
TALENTED YOUNG PEOPLE都去搞SOCIAL network,年轻的工程师根本不知道为什么那么设
计,改一点就出错
lighter
components,
【在 b*******y 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : This is becoming very interesting : the oxygen system on f22 is made by honeywell. However, the technology is, : at least 25 years old. And the equipment of oxygen generation, is : standardized on a lot of aircrafts. : USAF had checked across all tactical fleet of different models, like f18, : a10, etc, for the same oxygen issue, and found nothing. : of course, honeywell shrinks the same equipment for f22, to make it lighter : and smaller. someone doubts the re-design has some week point on components, : like wearing off much faster than old models.
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b*******y 发帖数: 4304 | 25 same things, but diff names
面罩、
,HGU86P头
度不是16那些东
【在 B*D 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : this is bullshit : Quote : "F16的相关系统是“飞机氧气系统”:CRU79分子筛、CRU7984A氧气调节器、MBU-20P面罩、 : HGC55P头盔、代偿背心抗荷裤 : F22的则是“飞机氧气与生命保障系统”:CRU104/5A机载产氧,CRU106A呼吸调节器,HGU86P头 : 盔,MBU22P面罩,这几个主要的大头里没有一个是相同的。 : F22这套东西设计时就定位于一套完整的、和武器系统结合的生命保障系统,复杂程度不是16那些东 : 西可比的。" : : is,
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B*D 发帖数: 5016 | 26 yeah,whatever...
【在 b*******y 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : same things, but diff names : : 面罩、 : ,HGU86P头 : 度不是16那些东
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j*m 发帖数: 833 | 27 can't they just make it automatic? if the level of oxygen drops below a
certain level, the emergency system starts automatically by itself? |
s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | 28 O2 level is not the main issue. The problem is oxygen level seems okay,
pilot thinks he is all fine while he is slowly poisoned and lost
concentration or even consciousness. See the video, some pilot hit a tree
and not knowing he hit a tree.
【在 j*m 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : can't they just make it automatic? if the level of oxygen drops below a : certain level, the emergency system starts automatically by itself?
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a***e 发帖数: 27968 | 29 这东西这么成熟了,怎么可能出问题
别是为了隐身,安装的位置古怪,吸不到气,但这样的话机舱氧传感应该会有反应
难道吸到部分尾气了?
还是隐身涂层空气摩擦产生毒气?
或者干脆是漏雷达辐射,那就成烤猪了
或者某种低频震动,被次声震糊涂了
【在 s*********0 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7407680n&tag=pop;videos : http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57428204-10391709/the-f-
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a***e 发帖数: 27968 | 30 part #不表示任何问题
CRU79里面换个螺钉的生产厂就可能是个新part #,外形改动就更不用说了
面罩、
,HGU86P头
度不是16那些东
【在 B*D 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : this is bullshit : Quote : "F16的相关系统是“飞机氧气系统”:CRU79分子筛、CRU7984A氧气调节器、MBU-20P面罩、 : HGC55P头盔、代偿背心抗荷裤 : F22的则是“飞机氧气与生命保障系统”:CRU104/5A机载产氧,CRU106A呼吸调节器,HGU86P头 : 盔,MBU22P面罩,这几个主要的大头里没有一个是相同的。 : F22这套东西设计时就定位于一套完整的、和武器系统结合的生命保障系统,复杂程度不是16那些东 : 西可比的。" : : is,
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d******c 发帖数: 2407 | 31 应该是军方在背后支持的
就跟中国官泄某飞机设计问题一样,都是军方不满厂商的态度,于是公开打脸
不太可能是两人纯粹个人行为
【在 p*********e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 嗯,你有空看下整个访谈吧 : 问题确实很严重 : 俩飞行员已经豁出去了.
|
a***e 发帖数: 27968 | 32 显然么
【在 d******c 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 应该是军方在背后支持的 : 就跟中国官泄某飞机设计问题一样,都是军方不满厂商的态度,于是公开打脸 : 不太可能是两人纯粹个人行为
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b*******y 发帖数: 4304 | 33 And even ground maintainers are complaining about dizziness/hypoxia issues
when the engine is running...
is the engine so powerful and use up all oxygen ?
【在 a***e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 显然么
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s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | 34 我看不像。尤其是左边那个胡子,他说1月份他罢飞以来一直受到空军打压,已经降职
,大幅减薪,而且在节目里说“they ask me for a hearing in a couple of days”,
还说“I don't think I can be in the air force anymore”。我感觉是他要马上要
参加内部审讯,知道自己违抗军令罢飞后果不妙,为了保命上电视台露一下脸,免得过
了那个hearing以后就人间蒸发了。都是跟王立军学的。
幻想一下,中国大使馆要是派辆车把这位接进去多好。可以拿陈光城交换,对等待遇。
【在 d******c 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 应该是军方在背后支持的 : 就跟中国官泄某飞机设计问题一样,都是军方不满厂商的态度,于是公开打脸 : 不太可能是两人纯粹个人行为
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T****r 发帖数: 22092 | 35 换陈?有毛病啊。
”,
【在 s*********0 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 我看不像。尤其是左边那个胡子,他说1月份他罢飞以来一直受到空军打压,已经降职 : ,大幅减薪,而且在节目里说“they ask me for a hearing in a couple of days”, : 还说“I don't think I can be in the air force anymore”。我感觉是他要马上要 : 参加内部审讯,知道自己违抗军令罢飞后果不妙,为了保命上电视台露一下脸,免得过 : 了那个hearing以后就人间蒸发了。都是跟王立军学的。 : 幻想一下,中国大使馆要是派辆车把这位接进去多好。可以拿陈光城交换,对等待遇。
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v****0 发帖数: 1887 | 36 这个是隐形战机
很多功能需要隐身
【在 S***a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : emergency oxygen ring设计时候就应该放在足够显眼的位置,确保飞行员即使是在出 : 现缺氧症状时候也能找到并使用。否则这个东西的设计就是有问题。受害者家属完全就 : 这一点可以去告骡马。
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a***e 发帖数: 27968 | 37 涂层有毒
【在 b*******y 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : And even ground maintainers are complaining about dizziness/hypoxia issues : when the engine is running... : is the engine so powerful and use up all oxygen ?
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l**i 发帖数: 8144 | |
L***n 发帖数: 6727 | 39 这空军的氧气也不保险啊,要自带氧气上机!跟老聂一样,还是
自己的东西用着放心! 隔三差五的自己捏个氧气包补补身子。
【在 p*********e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 不 : 如果我没听错,意思就是飞行员首先会出现缺氧症状 : 但当他们意识到自己缺氧的时候因为缺氧, : 已经没有足够的认知能力去找到emergency oxygen ring的位置并开启它了 : 现在的问题是都不知道到底是氧气供应不足,还是供氧本身被poisoned : 也找不到到底是什么引起任何一个可能的.
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l*****i 发帖数: 20533 | 40 这个问题不解决,那么我想他实战中格斗能力恐怕就基本没有了。飞行员不知不觉就变
傻子了还怎么格斗? |
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b*******y 发帖数: 4304 | 41 The top commander will fly f22 until the thing is resolved:
"But the Air Force kept the F-22s in the air. “We live in a community where
risk is part of our lives,” Gen. Mike Hostage, the Air Force’s top
fighter commander, said at an April ceremony in Virginia celebrating the F-
22. “Right now, we believe that risk — although it’s not as low as we
would like it — is low enough to safely operate the airplane at the current
tempo.”
Hostage said he would qualify in the F-22 and fly it regularly until the
oxygen problem is resolved. “I’m asking these guys to assume some risk
that’s over and above what everybody else is assuming, and I don’t feel
like it’s right that I ask them to do it and then I’m not willing to do it
myself,” he said."
【在 a***e 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 涂层有毒
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r*******3 发帖数: 10886 | 42 媒体一炒作,真有人把瞎子当钱学森了。。。。。天朝敢收米帝军方避难军人的时候,
wsn的jj应该也崛起了。。。
【在 T****r 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 换陈?有毛病啊。 : : ”,
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c*******i 发帖数: 951 | 43 Top commander 叫 Hostage,有点搞笑。
where
current
【在 b*******y 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : The top commander will fly f22 until the thing is resolved: : "But the Air Force kept the F-22s in the air. “We live in a community where : risk is part of our lives,” Gen. Mike Hostage, the Air Force’s top : fighter commander, said at an April ceremony in Virginia celebrating the F- : 22. “Right now, we believe that risk — although it’s not as low as we : would like it — is low enough to safely operate the airplane at the current : tempo.” : Hostage said he would qualify in the F-22 and fly it regularly until the : oxygen problem is resolved. “I’m asking these guys to assume some risk : that’s over and above what everybody else is assuming, and I don’t feel
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r*******3 发帖数: 10886 | 44 以前好像还有个舰长因为叫Sinkus被换掉了
【在 c*******i 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : Top commander 叫 Hostage,有点搞笑。 : : where : current
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o*****a 发帖数: 2335 | 45 有人说落马找了一帮水军在twitter上洗地,有去围观的吗 |
c********n 发帖数: 1065 | 46 听说缺氧都是瞬间collapse,基本没有什么反应时间。
【在 S***a 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : emergency oxygen ring设计时候就应该放在足够显眼的位置,确保飞行员即使是在出 : 现缺氧症状时候也能找到并使用。否则这个东西的设计就是有问题。受害者家属完全就 : 这一点可以去告骡马。
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s*********0 发帖数: 2045 | 47 Not true. Hypoxia feels like drunk. You are still alive and flying the plane
, just much slower in thinking. Here is an example:
【在 c********n 的大作中提到】![](/moin_static193/solenoid/img/up.png) : 听说缺氧都是瞬间collapse,基本没有什么反应时间。
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