y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 1 想当初本版某书呆子还一个劲的拿着狗屁数字当事实来辩,现在怎么样?
被打脸了...
President Obama's national health care law will cost $1.76 trillion over a
decade, according to a new projection released today by the Congressional
Budget Office, rather than the $940 billion forecast when it was signed into
law.
http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confid | n***b
发帖数: 5914 | 2 “Democrats employed many accounting tricks。。。。” lol，太入目三分了
into
【在 y****t 的大作中提到】
: 想当初本版某书呆子还一个劲的拿着狗屁数字当事实来辩,现在怎么样?
: 被打脸了...
: President Obama's national health care law will cost $1.76 trillion over a
: decade, according to a new projection released today by the Congressional
: Budget Office, rather than the $940 billion forecast when it was signed into
: law.
: http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confid
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 3 US needs universal health care. obamacare is not enough.
the government needs to cut the other stuff not UHC. | a******o
发帖数: 16625 | 4 Obama care根本就是一个威逼中产为全民买单的抢劫计划。美国医疗的根本问题一个也
没有解决而且更加严重。就凭这个，有工作的人谁投他的票就是脑袋被门挤了。
into
【在 y****t 的大作中提到】
: 想当初本版某书呆子还一个劲的拿着狗屁数字当事实来辩,现在怎么样?
: 被打脸了...
: President Obama's national health care law will cost $1.76 trillion over a
: decade, according to a new projection released today by the Congressional
: Budget Office, rather than the $940 billion forecast when it was signed into
: law.
: http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confid
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 5 it is the same thing regardless what you do. people without insurance
can
always go to ER without pay, then you end it up paying it anyway.
obama only achieved a small step toward UHC which is far from the end.
without UHC, it is a joke talking about democracy and humanity.
everyone should and deserve a cure when get sick.
when you are young, think when you will get old.
when you are heathy, think someday you will get sick
when you have a job, think someday you might lose it
you need use your brain.
US should change priorities link curing people first instead spending billions of dollars in iraq etc.
【在 a******o 的大作中提到】
: Obama care根本就是一个威逼中产为全民买单的抢劫计划。美国医疗的根本问题一个也
: 没有解决而且更加严重。就凭这个，有工作的人谁投他的票就是脑袋被门挤了。
:
: into
| y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 6 the #1 problem of healthcare is the cost.
you should start to solve the problem from there.
i.e. tort reform.
obamacare搞的这一套就是抱薪救火.最后柴烧没了,钱花光了,不仅穷人都没病看了,连
中产,整个医疗体系都被一锅端.
这就是共产的最后结果.已经是经过实践证明的了.到时候,流氓共产政府给你发个自杀
药丸.这就是你要的保险.
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: it is the same thing regardless what you do. people without insurance
: can
: always go to ER without pay, then you end it up paying it anyway.
: obama only achieved a small step toward UHC which is far from the end.
: without UHC, it is a joke talking about democracy and humanity.
: everyone should and deserve a cure when get sick.
: when you are young, think when you will get old.
: when you are heathy, think someday you will get sick
: when you have a job, think someday you might lose it
: you need use your brain.
| y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 7 大家多用用自己的脑子,多用用自己眼睛.
【在 y****t 的大作中提到】
: the #1 problem of healthcare is the cost.
: you should start to solve the problem from there.
: i.e. tort reform.
: obamacare搞的这一套就是抱薪救火.最后柴烧没了,钱花光了,不仅穷人都没病看了,连
: 中产,整个医疗体系都被一锅端.
: 这就是共产的最后结果.已经是经过实践证明的了.到时候,流氓共产政府给你发个自杀
: 药丸.这就是你要的保险.
| y*****d
发帖数: 4451 | 8 why加拿大国力不足也能支撑全民医疗而美国就不行呢？ | m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 9 but i do think about those things all the time. my solution is to have a
savings account or a rainy day fund, or anything that doesn't involve
dependency on the "government", which i don't trust.
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: it is the same thing regardless what you do. people without insurance
: can
: always go to ER without pay, then you end it up paying it anyway.
: obama only achieved a small step toward UHC which is far from the end.
: without UHC, it is a joke talking about democracy and humanity.
: everyone should and deserve a cure when get sick.
: when you are young, think when you will get old.
: when you are heathy, think someday you will get sick
: when you have a job, think someday you might lose it
: you need use your brain.
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 10 canada has some advantages. too cold for the homeless to survive on the
streets for many years, have a buffer zone (USA) between it and mexico and
the rest of central america, and they didn't enslave as many people as the
americans did.
【在 y*****d 的大作中提到】
: why加拿大国力不足也能支撑全民医疗而美国就不行呢？
| | | y*****d
发帖数: 4451 | 11 还是不懂。冬天的maintenance加拿大比美国花费大好多，交税也没高太多，这个太奇
怪了。不过美国经济不错汽油便宜。
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: canada has some advantages. too cold for the homeless to survive on the
: streets for many years, have a buffer zone (USA) between it and mexico and
: the rest of central america, and they didn't enslave as many people as the
: americans did.
| g*q
发帖数: 26623 | 12 税还是高好多吧
【在 y*****d 的大作中提到】
: 还是不懂。冬天的maintenance加拿大比美国花费大好多，交税也没高太多，这个太奇
: 怪了。不过美国经济不错汽油便宜。
| y*****d
发帖数: 4451 | 13 消费税还是高，13% vs. 8.5%，个人所得税好像没高太多，20%而已，汽油高20%以上，
但免费医疗啊。总之全民医疗，就不能保证经济发展，像中国大陆和美国不保医疗就能
有发展，像欧洲加拿大英国模式这样子经济上不去。还是出力的少吃饭的嘴太多。
【在 g*q 的大作中提到】
: 税还是高好多吧
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 14 台湾的就挺好。 好像交的也不多。
【在 y*****d 的大作中提到】
: why加拿大国力不足也能支撑全民医疗而美国就不行呢？
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 15 台湾的buffer是太平洋。 移民没事不会非法去。
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: 台湾的就挺好。 好像交的也不多。
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 16 but unfortunately you have to depend on government for something, for
example, national defense, law enforcement etc. nothing can replace
government. I think health care belong to this category too even though
government does a poor job, but it serves the bottom safe net.
government is the fundamental insurance company for everyone.
you can have your saving account, but not for those poor and jobless.
for those only the goverment can help, and of course the money comes from
tax payers.
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: but i do think about those things all the time. my solution is to have a
: savings account or a rainy day fund, or anything that doesn't involve
: dependency on the "government", which i don't trust.
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 17 i do not think illegal immigrants are a stopper. if they are, how about UHC
for legal people only? actually i like fairtax for consumption tax, which
automatically tax illegal immigrants and no one need to file stupid tax
return anymore.
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: 台湾的buffer是太平洋。 移民没事不会非法去。
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 18 to me, a person's priorities is like this:
personal safty
housing
food
health
others
so, the government, if as you say, should provide safty net, it should
follow that list. it already provides the military/law enforcement for
personal safty, good. the next thing it should do is universal housing.
Nobody should live on the street. In fact, one can even argue that having a
home to live in is paramount to having good health.
and then, there should be universal food court. if you are starving, you
are not going anywhere. I don't think anyone who starved to death would
prefer health over food. and one can also argue that good neutrition is
paramount to having good health.
so, until we have universal housing and universal cafeteria, it is pointless
to provide universal health.
also, i left personal freedom out of the list of things, because i don't
think that is a universal value.
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: but unfortunately you have to depend on government for something, for
: example, national defense, law enforcement etc. nothing can replace
: government. I think health care belong to this category too even though
: government does a poor job, but it serves the bottom safe net.
: government is the fundamental insurance company for everyone.
: you can have your saving account, but not for those poor and jobless.
: for those only the goverment can help, and of course the money comes from
: tax payers.
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 19 my mind is not made up on this, but i am definitely open to the consumption
tax idea.
UHC
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: i do not think illegal immigrants are a stopper. if they are, how about UHC
: for legal people only? actually i like fairtax for consumption tax, which
: automatically tax illegal immigrants and no one need to file stupid tax
: return anymore.
| n***b
发帖数: 5914 | 20 ask your canadian friends to see how long they need to wait for a CT scan,
MRI and making an appointment for a surgery
你再参考日本和台湾的全民保健在没有高税率的支撑下又是怎么做到的
【在 y*****d 的大作中提到】
: why加拿大国力不足也能支撑全民医疗而美国就不行呢？
| | | t**x
发帖数: 20965 | 21 都是什么东西给公产抹黑？！ 公产多会儿有这么贵的医疗费，， 这么贵的学费。。。
这他妈都是资本家和体制内既得利益给中产和穷人插的管子，往外吸血。。 | s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 22 I like this argument. I think you are right.
but even for UHC, i do not think government will provide all your needs,
just education, private school can still go on.
as far as I know, gov already do food stamp for food, cheap house for low
income etc.
people needs food/house every day, you do not go to hospital everyday, UHC
still much more affordable than the others. i.e, you can not do the other 2
in much large scale, it does not make sense as it is pretty much your life,
eat and live.
a
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: to me, a person's priorities is like this:
: personal safty
: housing
: food
: health
: others
: so, the government, if as you say, should provide safty net, it should
: follow that list. it already provides the military/law enforcement for
: personal safty, good. the next thing it should do is universal housing.
: Nobody should live on the street. In fact, one can even argue that having a
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 23 i would say food stamps and low income housing is equivalent to medicare,
etc. It doesn't force everyone to buy food nor house or else face a penalty.
2
,
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: I like this argument. I think you are right.
: but even for UHC, i do not think government will provide all your needs,
: just education, private school can still go on.
: as far as I know, gov already do food stamp for food, cheap house for low
: income etc.
: people needs food/house every day, you do not go to hospital everyday, UHC
: still much more affordable than the others. i.e, you can not do the other 2
: in much large scale, it does not make sense as it is pretty much your life,
: eat and live.
:
| a******o
发帖数: 16625 | 24 加拿大的医疗系统也不咋地，有钱人都跑美国来看病。
我觉得obamacare的问题是依附于现有的吸血医师/保险/律师体系，所以根本不能解决
问题，就像lz说的是抱薪救火。对那些无保险的根本就应该另外建一套类似加拿大的系
统,make it less cost, less liability,才能解决问题。
【在 y*****d 的大作中提到】
: why加拿大国力不足也能支撑全民医疗而美国就不行呢？
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 25 medicare has so many restrictions, like age etc. I do not know much
details about it.
when you lost the job, you get sick, you will be in big trouble here.
that should be fixed. sometimes you can not even buy insurance because
insurance companies simply reject you due to preexisting condition.
forcing people to buy insurance does not make too much sense to me, it
just should come from taxes anyway.
medicare,
penalty.
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: i would say food stamps and low income housing is equivalent to medicare,
: etc. It doesn't force everyone to buy food nor house or else face a penalty.
:
: 2
: ,
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 26 but what i don't understand is, when you lose your job, you are in big
trouble anyway. so, why is health insurance so special?
details
just
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: medicare has so many restrictions, like age etc. I do not know much
: details about it.
: when you lost the job, you get sick, you will be in big trouble here.
: that should be fixed. sometimes you can not even buy insurance because
: insurance companies simply reject you due to preexisting condition.
: forcing people to buy insurance does not make too much sense to me, it
: just should come from taxes anyway.
:
: medicare,
: penalty.
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 27 1) they suffer when they are sick. this someone might be you or me.
2) they go to ER and do not pay it, which cost YOU money too because someone
will pay it.
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: but what i don't understand is, when you lose your job, you are in big
: trouble anyway. so, why is health insurance so special?
:
: details
: just
| l**t
发帖数: 6971 | 28 这是白宫的press release：
CBO Update Shows Lower Costs for the New Health Care Law
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/03/14/cbo-update-shows-lowe
一群人看见个断章取义的谣言就当真。。。你也至少先看看link再信啊。 | l**t
发帖数: 6971 | 29
自己存钱就需要为最坏情况打算。你存多少算够啊？五百万都有可能不够。
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: but i do think about those things all the time. my solution is to have a
: savings account or a rainy day fund, or anything that doesn't involve
: dependency on the "government", which i don't trust.
| w******y
发帖数: 8040 | 30 那个1.8T好像是预期的总预算超支
不过这换汤不换药吧， 省得这点， 奥黑大政府在别处糟蹋得更多
【在 l**t 的大作中提到】
: 这是白宫的press release：
: CBO Update Shows Lower Costs for the New Health Care Law
: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/03/14/cbo-update-shows-lowe
: 一群人看见个断章取义的谣言就当真。。。你也至少先看看link再信啊。
| | | w******y
发帖数: 8040 | 31 华人就该年复一年的投Ron Paul和它的后继人, 知其不可为而为之
奥黑不能投， Romney更不能投， 工薪阶层谁投Romney谁傻逼
【在 a******o 的大作中提到】
: Obama care根本就是一个威逼中产为全民买单的抢劫计划。美国医疗的根本问题一个也
: 没有解决而且更加严重。就凭这个，有工作的人谁投他的票就是脑袋被门挤了。
:
: into
| y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 32 如果只剩下romney Vs obama 你投谁?
【在 w******y 的大作中提到】
: 华人就该年复一年的投Ron Paul和它的后继人, 知其不可为而为之
: 奥黑不能投， Romney更不能投， 工薪阶层谁投Romney谁傻逼
| y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 33 我X,你现在直接从obama家里拿宣传品了..
lol...
【在 l**t 的大作中提到】
: 这是白宫的press release：
: CBO Update Shows Lower Costs for the New Health Care Law
: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/03/14/cbo-update-shows-lowe
: 一群人看见个断章取义的谣言就当真。。。你也至少先看看link再信啊。
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 34 这个, 反正有些人认为health care 重要无比. 这是个人看法. 我不觉得有什么对错
可以争论.
我个人看法是, 没有什么不能用钱解决的事情. 既然已经有失业救济金, 那么, 从制
度上来说, 就已经够了. 如果有人一定要说那个救济金太少, 这是可以商量的. 你说
一个你觉得合适的起价, 我们可以讨价还价. 无论如何, 救济金不能比我工资还要高,
对吧?
someone
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: 1) they suffer when they are sick. this someone might be you or me.
: 2) they go to ER and do not pay it, which cost YOU money too because someone
: will pay it.
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 35 我不知道你存了多少钱作为你的rainy day. 反正我的远远超过了这个数目.
【在 l**t 的大作中提到】
:
: 自己存钱就需要为最坏情况打算。你存多少算够啊？五百万都有可能不够。
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 36 many people do not even have 失业救济金。 失业救济金 only for 1 year i think.
i think the fundamental debate probably is do you want the government handle
health insurance?
i believe something just can not go with capitalism, education is one
perfect example. i think healthcare belong to this kind of thing as well.
of course everything is just money, UHC should not be that bad at all as
Japan, HongKong, taiwan, UK etc are doing it already.
高,
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: 这个, 反正有些人认为health care 重要无比. 这是个人看法. 我不觉得有什么对错
: 可以争论.
: 我个人看法是, 没有什么不能用钱解决的事情. 既然已经有失业救济金, 那么, 从制
: 度上来说, 就已经够了. 如果有人一定要说那个救济金太少, 这是可以商量的. 你说
: 一个你觉得合适的起价, 我们可以讨价还价. 无论如何, 救济金不能比我工资还要高,
: 对吧?
:
: someone
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 37 I think if you propose for "health care" to be nationalized, i would
seriously think about it. That is to say, doctors, nurses, hospitals, are
part of the government. just like the public school system.
but that is not what we are talking about here. not even close, right?
think.
handle
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: many people do not even have 失业救济金。 失业救济金 only for 1 year i think.
: i think the fundamental debate probably is do you want the government handle
: health insurance?
: i believe something just can not go with capitalism, education is one
: perfect example. i think healthcare belong to this kind of thing as well.
: of course everything is just money, UHC should not be that bad at all as
: Japan, HongKong, taiwan, UK etc are doing it already.
:
: 高,
| y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 38 look at how public schools going down hill... it would be easy to predict
what gonna happen in the future when healthcare get obamanized, sorry,
nationalized.
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: I think if you propose for "health care" to be nationalized, i would
: seriously think about it. That is to say, doctors, nurses, hospitals, are
: part of the government. just like the public school system.
: but that is not what we are talking about here. not even close, right?
:
: think.
: handle
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 39 well, public schools are not going down, in the sense that they will cease
to exist. You can always go to a public school.
if there's the equivalent of the public school for hospitals, and the
equivalent of school vouchers for health bills, then, i think i'd prefer
that over whatever we have today.
the difference is, methinks, that while a 20% percentile in the SAT is
really unacceptable and will not get you into harvard, a 20% percentile in
the quality of health care you get, is not that bad. after all, how sick
can you really get?
【在 y****t 的大作中提到】
: look at how public schools going down hill... it would be easy to predict
: what gonna happen in the future when healthcare get obamanized, sorry,
: nationalized.
| s**x
发帖数: 7506 | 40 that is actually democrats really want. obamacare just a middle way of a
comprise with GOP.
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: I think if you propose for "health care" to be nationalized, i would
: seriously think about it. That is to say, doctors, nurses, hospitals, are
: part of the government. just like the public school system.
: but that is not what we are talking about here. not even close, right?
:
: think.
: handle
| | | n***b
发帖数: 5914 | 41 UHC能普及固然是好，但也是因为capitalism提供了一个incentive, 让美国成为医学研
究最发达的国家
【在 s**x 的大作中提到】
: that is actually democrats really want. obamacare just a middle way of a
: comprise with GOP.
|
|
