W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 1 I am dealth KhKc at CO.
LP limp in 25c,
I raise to 1.25$, everyoen folds, LP call.
we both have around 30$ 120b.
flop 6d5d4c,
LP Lead pot 3$, I raise to 6$, LP shoves.
I fold..
Ok fold?
Is it better just to call flop and plan to fold turn? He could have a
monster draw or 2 pair, straight, set type of hand, even though it is
screeming to me that it is a set. But a scary card comes, it might just
slow him down that I can see a show down or steal a pot? | t*********d
发帖数: 3398 | | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 3 是不是call 比raise好呢? 我感觉raise fold shove 还不如call flop and fold
turn. | s*********k
发帖数: 1989 | 4 Only after you know he re-raise. It is ok.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 是不是call 比raise好呢? 我感觉raise fold shove 还不如call flop and fold
: turn.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 5 damn, thought i read wrong and deleted my last reply.
not likely he got a set or 2 pair or str8:
1) set, his flop pot bet is too big, unless he's sure you got a monster PP;
2) 2 pair, his pre-flop limp call is too loose;
3) 78s for str8, like 2.
a small/medium lead out or check raise would worry me more.
his range should include a lot of AxXd hands (X < Q). combo draw with Ad7d?
worst case.
you get close to 2:3 ($23 for $38), i guess it's ok to call.
i'd not flat here, the pot is hard to control
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I am dealth KhKc at CO.
: LP limp in 25c,
: I raise to 1.25$, everyoen folds, LP call.
: we both have around 30$ 120b.
: flop 6d5d4c,
: LP Lead pot 3$, I raise to 6$, LP shoves.
: I fold..
: Ok fold?
: Is it better just to call flop and plan to fold turn? He could have a
: monster draw or 2 pair, straight, set type of hand, even though it is
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 6 I have been thinking about hands like this a lot. I would love to have some
more discussion here. I don't quite see how I can call the shove. Because
through all of his range of hand listed here. I am either drawing dead, big
underdog or slight advantage. Hard to imagin that I can get +EV out of this.
If it is a raised reraised pot preflop, then it is a much easier call
shove from me.
If I won't call a shove, then i feel I should just call flop. Not planning
to call down to river but to give
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: damn, thought i read wrong and deleted my last reply.
: not likely he got a set or 2 pair or str8:
: 1) set, his flop pot bet is too big, unless he's sure you got a monster PP;
: 2) 2 pair, his pre-flop limp call is too loose;
: 3) 78s for str8, like 2.
: a small/medium lead out or check raise would worry me more.
: his range should include a lot of AxXd hands (X < Q). combo draw with Ad7d?
: worst case.
: you get close to 2:3 ($23 for $38), i guess it's ok to call.
: i'd not flat here, the pot is hard to control
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 7 yes, hard to imagine you're way ahead here. it's only ok to call his shove,
or fold if you feel uncomfortable or have some notes on him.
flat call is fine if you can re-evaluate on the turn. i agree mini-raising
to $6 might be the worst play here:
1) not enough to get good drawing hands out;
2) give him a chance to pop up;
3) almost no outs for you down the road;
4) stack is too big;
5) $6, he has a much better idea what you may hold than you, playing cards
face-up is the worst in poker.
in part
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I have been thinking about hands like this a lot. I would love to have some
: more discussion here. I don't quite see how I can call the shove. Because
: through all of his range of hand listed here. I am either drawing dead, big
: underdog or slight advantage. Hard to imagin that I can get +EV out of this.
: If it is a raised reraised pot preflop, then it is a much easier call
: shove from me.
: If I won't call a shove, then i feel I should just call flop. Not planning
: to call down to river but to give
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 8 does it make a difference if I started with 80X bb? I think call is still better for the same reason. raise make it simple for his decision, shove or fold. Call make him guess our hand. Make him work out of position. He has got draws, he is in trouble without making it. He has got sets, he is in trouble when flush comes out. there is no hand he could have without having a scary card.
,
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: yes, hard to imagine you're way ahead here. it's only ok to call his shove,
: or fold if you feel uncomfortable or have some notes on him.
: flat call is fine if you can re-evaluate on the turn. i agree mini-raising
: to $6 might be the worst play here:
: 1) not enough to get good drawing hands out;
: 2) give him a chance to pop up;
: 3) almost no outs for you down the road;
: 4) stack is too big;
: 5) $6, he has a much better idea what you may hold than you, playing cards
: face-up is the worst in poker.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 9 if you only got $8 left (once you call), then the decision is much simpler,
re-shove back.
that's the core of short-medium stack play.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: does it make a difference if I started with 80X bb? I think call is still better for the same reason. raise make it simple for his decision, shove or fold. Call make him guess our hand. Make him work out of position. He has got draws, he is in trouble without making it. He has got sets, he is in trouble when flush comes out. there is no hand he could have without having a scary card.
:
: ,
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 10 That's if I raise. I guess if I raise then it is no turning back. On the
other hand, i can call and do exactly the same as we have outlined.
,
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: if you only got $8 left (once you call), then the decision is much simpler,
: re-shove back.
: that's the core of short-medium stack play.
| | | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 11 if we're using a smaller stack, 60BB ($15) in this case, i'd not call flop
any more (would cost 17BB or 30% in total). it's just passive and my hand is
not improving.
even if a scary card comes:
1) play the guessing game, we need to make sure who got scared? (if actually
he hits);
2) if he leads out small/medium for value, most likely we'll be forced to
call with odds. if we raise later, we turn a once-monster into a bluffing
hand now;
3) he could hit crappy outs like A (if indeed he's playing A
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: That's if I raise. I guess if I raise then it is no turning back. On the
: other hand, i can call and do exactly the same as we have outlined.
:
: ,
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 12 I used to play 60bb as well. Then i realized that this is a very awkward
amount to play. It is not too small of a stack that does not give others a
good implied odds. Even if you raise 4X with pocket As, it is still
profitable for small pocket pairs to call preflop for set farming. And your
straightforward play after flop make it a sure pay off. At the same time, it
is not too big of a stack to drive out any draws after flop. When you raise
flop, they can't even lay down a draw. So i increased
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: if we're using a smaller stack, 60BB ($15) in this case, i'd not call flop
: any more (would cost 17BB or 30% in total). it's just passive and my hand is
: not improving.
: even if a scary card comes:
: 1) play the guessing game, we need to make sure who got scared? (if actually
: he hits);
: 2) if he leads out small/medium for value, most likely we'll be forced to
: call with odds. if we raise later, we turn a once-monster into a bluffing
: hand now;
: 3) he could hit crappy outs like A (if indeed he's playing A
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 13 hehe, want to know why my AA/KK hold up 95% these days? no, no 4x, those
donks are too brave.
or actually i don't care about these hands that much any more, say, i get 10
of them each day (out of 1500 hands), i'm fine with 8 small wins, 1 double
up, and 1 unknown anyway.
a
your
it
raise
I
increase
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I used to play 60bb as well. Then i realized that this is a very awkward
: amount to play. It is not too small of a stack that does not give others a
: good implied odds. Even if you raise 4X with pocket As, it is still
: profitable for small pocket pairs to call preflop for set farming. And your
: straightforward play after flop make it a sure pay off. At the same time, it
: is not too big of a stack to drive out any draws after flop. When you raise
: flop, they can't even lay down a draw. So i increased
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 14 I over shove AA soemtimes too when there is someone opens. But what if you
have pocket As at LP when everyone fold to you? do you open shove as well?
That would be a waste. it is not only AA KK. QQ AK is the same really when you hit TPTK or over pair at flop. And for those hand you can't even open shove anymore to be profitable
10
double
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: hehe, want to know why my AA/KK hold up 95% these days? no, no 4x, those
: donks are too brave.
: or actually i don't care about these hands that much any more, say, i get 10
: of them each day (out of 1500 hands), i'm fine with 8 small wins, 1 double
: up, and 1 unknown anyway.
:
: a
: your
: it
: raise
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 15 like any weapon in your arsenal, over shoving is just one of them, it has
much more value in micro stack rush poker, which doesn't mean you use it too
often to become a trackable pattern.
for LP, when everyone folds to you, the most likely case is that CO/BT
normally are waiting for stealing opportunity (in rush poker), and SB/BB has
nothing even for a 3x bet. over shoving might be too much, 5/6x would be
enough, hehe.
the power of AA/KK is to force your supicious hero callers to play a short
ga
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I over shove AA soemtimes too when there is someone opens. But what if you
: have pocket As at LP when everyone fold to you? do you open shove as well?
: That would be a waste. it is not only AA KK. QQ AK is the same really when you hit TPTK or over pair at flop. And for those hand you can't even open shove anymore to be profitable
:
: 10
: double
|
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