W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 1 Just after Black Friday I had a chat with a friend of mine who plays live no
-limit in Las Vegas casinos. “You know this is going to kill our games,”
he said. “The internet kids are all going to be taking every other seat,
and no one’s going to beat the rake.”
It took half an hour, but eventually I talked him down from the ledge. Las
Vegas is crawling with tourists, and they are really, really bad at poker.
So what if there are a few more decent players in the game?
I did acknowledge that we’d probably see a few more internet kids in the
live Vegas casino games than before. Six months hence, the games are still
great, but yes, there are internet kids.
The thing is, these internet kids can be annoying, but I see them make a lot
of mistakes. I think it’s because they haven’t correctly adjusted their
internet style to the much different live games. The mistakes they make tend
to be of the “shooting themselves in the foot” variety. They’re winning
in the games, no doubt, but if they just took a step back and thought about
their new environment, they’d win more. A quick primer on variance and
Onlinecasino.ca. I want to write a few articles about what I see them doing
wrong.
To understand why these mistakes are mistakes, you need a little background
information. Say you’re playing $3-$6 at an online casino. A respectable
winrate in that game, one that indicates that you are “hanging with the
regs” so to speak, might be 20 cents a hand. That works out to $20/100
hands which is a bit over 1.5ptbb/100. With rakeback you’re making a little
more.
Now look at a $2-$5 live game. Theoretically it’s slightly smaller, but the
game (on a good day at least) plays a little deeper, and the preflop raises
are bigger, so it’s about the same size. A respectable winrate in this
game is $30/hour which, at 30 hands an hour, is $1 a hand. The live game has
5x the winrate. These numbers are for a respectable reg in these games, not
for the best player at the stakes. The best players in these games could
double or possibly even triple these numbers.
Bottom line is, live games are, on a per-hand basis, MUCH more profitable.
Why? Because live games feature people who make absolutely horrendous errors
for huge bets on the turn and river. Just two days ago I saw someone call a
3-bet river overbet shove for more than $1,000 in a $2-$5 game on a KKJK7
board. It doesn’t happen every session, obviously, but it’s not uncommon
to ship it in on the river for 100BB or more and get called by an absolutely
hopeless hand.
Since this is such a tremendous source of profit, live game players have to
tailor their strategies to captilize on these opportunities. Sometimes this
means passing on smaller edges that present themselves earlier in a hand.
Internet players make mistakes that prevent these opportunities from
materializing because they are used to exploiting much thinner edges online.
Problem 1. Bad preflop 3-betting.
Anyone who has played in both live and online casinos knows that there’s
way more 3-betting preflop online than live. To survive in online no-limit
hold’em games, you have to learn how to play a balanced 3-bet, 4-bet, and 5
-bet preflop strategy. The “standard” 3-bet range online is AA-TT, AK-AQ.
To this range, players add 3-bet bluffs. And in some situations they add
more value 3-betting hands as well.
Why is this 3-betting so critical online? Most pots online get opened for a
raise. Therefore, players are opening a wide range of weak hands. If you
were to 3-bet only strong hands, your opponents could fold every time you 3-
bet and play only against your middling hands. Therefore, you have to
balance your value 3-bets with bluffs. When an opponent suspects you are
bluffing too often, he begins to rebluff you with 4-bets. And so on.
Live games are very different for a few reasons. First, many pots are limped
, so preflop raising ranges tend in many situations to be stronger than they
are online. This makes 3-bet bluffing less profitable.
Second, many live players call 3-bets way too loosely. Two days ago the
under the gun player opened for $20 in a $2-$5 game with a $300 stack. The
next player called with a $200 stack. Another player called and it came to
me in the big blind. I had AcAs. I raised to $85. Both the under the gun
player and the next player called. The flop was J94. I shoved. The preflop
raiser called me with 88, and the next player, the one who called $85
preflop and had only $115 left in an absolutely massive pot, folded.
Third, when you 3-bet, you muscle people out of the pot. Yes, players call 3
-bets too loosely, but even tourists don’t just cold-call a 3-bet with any
old two cards. Say a bad players limps and a good hand-reading LAG isolates
to $25 from two off the button. The big blind is the worst player in the
game and he has $1,500 behind. You cover the table and you have a playable
hand. Is it better to 3-bet light to try to punish the LAG for getting out
of line a little with his isolation raises? Or is it better just to see a
flop with two miserably terrible players who will ship it in on the river in
hopeless situations?
This is the point. Yes, the LAG is getting out of line, and you can punish
that by 3-betting lighter. Online this would be a good adjustment, because
often it would be the only realistic alternative to folding and making
nothing from the hand.
But in a live game, you’re making cents when you could be making dollars.
The good hand-reading LAG is not going to feed your $1+/hand winrate. The
fish are. When you shut them out, you’re turning your massive live winrate
into a paper-thin online winrate. Bad play.
So when should you 3-bet live? Most of the time, you 3-bet when players will
call you with worse hands. It’s fine to 3-bet AJ if you think a fish will
call OOP with hands like Jc8c.
But say a strongish player has opened and you’re next in the pot. Do you 3-
bet JJ? In an online game you often do, but in a live game it’s not as good
a play. By getting the pot heads-up with a decent player with the bottom of
your value 3-betting range, you’re taking a good hand and turning it into
a razor-thin winner (razor-thin by live game standards). Flat calling,
letting two fish into the pot, and then stacking one of them when you make
top full might be more profitable.
AA is a special case. There’s more incentive to 3-bet AA even against a
good player because the potential to get stacks in preflop is so valuable.
Even KK isn’t nearly as good to 3-bet because when stacks go in you’re
against AA a decent percentage of the time. But I virtually always 3-bet AA
even when fish are lurking because I can get it in against AK or QQ and have
enormous equity.
In conclusion, I’m not saying 3-betting preflop is bad in live games. I do
it a fair bit. But I tend to do it more for value and less as a bluff. If I
do it as a bluff, I typically do it with a hand that has little-to-no value
even against a fish if I called to see a flop. I’m not in a live game to
play for thin edges against decent players. I’m in a live game to see flops
against horrendous players, and that’s what I do. | d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 2 赞！
poker真奇妙，push value thin在live里竟然变成了一个leak | h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 3 总觉得如果internet poker不能stat tracking，和live poker区别就不明显了。
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: 赞！
: poker真奇妙，push value thin在live里竟然变成了一个leak
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 4 A lot of logics in thinking are still the same for live and on-line.
Maybe ed miller does not visit the ssnl forum on 2+2. Like the example he
gave whether you should 3 bet light on button vs a lag open when a fish is
sitting on big blind. This type of discussion has happened so many times
among on-line players as well. It is definitely not live specific. It just
happened that it is more likely to have a fish sitting at big blind when situation arises in live game than on-line game. The logic behind is still the same. I don't think it is accurate to make this a live specific issues.
This article adds some perspectives if you have not thought about it, but i
don't really agree everything he says. I still firmly believe that our play
is range/player/situation dependent instead of on-line/live dependent. | s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 5 for the part of not 3 bet light on button when a fish is on blinds,
I saw a lot of videos about MSNL on cardrunners talked about this strategy.
In fact, the coach "nutedawg" on CR always stressed that you should always
open your range against fishers when you have position. For example, open
raise J8s on UTG in 6max games against fishes on blinds. I think it is
actually much easier to make proft when targeting huge fishes at MSNL.
situation arises in live game than on-line game. The logic behind is still
the same. I don't think it is accurate to make this a live specific issues.
i
play
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: A lot of logics in thinking are still the same for live and on-line.
: Maybe ed miller does not visit the ssnl forum on 2+2. Like the example he
: gave whether you should 3 bet light on button vs a lag open when a fish is
: sitting on big blind. This type of discussion has happened so many times
: among on-line players as well. It is definitely not live specific. It just
: happened that it is more likely to have a fish sitting at big blind when situation arises in live game than on-line game. The logic behind is still the same. I don't think it is accurate to make this a live specific issues.
: This article adds some perspectives if you have not thought about it, but i
: don't really agree everything he says. I still firmly believe that our play
: is range/player/situation dependent instead of on-line/live dependent.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 6 No question about that. It is always more profitable to target the fish,
live or on-line at any level. Live is more profitable (by per 100 hand) also because there are more fish at live table.
always
issues.
【在 s*******o 的大作中提到】
: for the part of not 3 bet light on button when a fish is on blinds,
: I saw a lot of videos about MSNL on cardrunners talked about this strategy.
: In fact, the coach "nutedawg" on CR always stressed that you should always
: open your range against fishers when you have position. For example, open
: raise J8s on UTG in 6max games against fishes on blinds. I think it is
: actually much easier to make proft when targeting huge fishes at MSNL.
:
: situation arises in live game than on-line game. The logic behind is still
: the same. I don't think it is accurate to make this a live specific issues.
: i
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 7 1. I am always skeptical of those stategies. In theory, it make sense, but
when I tried those fancy plays online or live, I always lose money.
I guess playing within ones' comfort zone and own style is more important
than implementing those advanced plays.
2. Something about playing fish, why it is profitable? My understanding is
when you have a hand, fish will pay you off and give you max value majority
of the time while good players can get away with it. And on certain
situation, you can even outplay them without a hand, given both missed flop.
But that doesn't mean you should play fish every hand using any two cards
and go out of line too much.
Say you raise fish with J8s at btn, flop is A K 9, fish is capable to check
call you three streets with A 3. In the end you may be burned for no reason.
PPL improve so fast, nowadays there is not many obvious week loose players (
best kind of fish) on 2/5 games anymore. Someday there might be one or two
fish on the table, but you still has to have a hand to play because there
are other ppl on the tables as well and they all want a piece of fish. | s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 8 the reason is if you can outplay a fish postflop, you should play a wider
range
preflop in position. It doesn't equal to play aggro against fish. I often
see fish slowplays a lot of big hands online. If you always want to push
fish
out, it is not a good idea and not a good postflop either. Since fish don't
know how to make values from big hand, you can lose way less when you facing
a big hand from fish and get rewarded when you have big hands.
Actually, you can raise almost 80% of your range from BTN if a fish sits on
blinds. Just like HU, you have to try to play most of your hands against
fishes
not regulars.
majority
flop.
【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: 1. I am always skeptical of those stategies. In theory, it make sense, but
: when I tried those fancy plays online or live, I always lose money.
: I guess playing within ones' comfort zone and own style is more important
: than implementing those advanced plays.
: 2. Something about playing fish, why it is profitable? My understanding is
: when you have a hand, fish will pay you off and give you max value majority
: of the time while good players can get away with it. And on certain
: situation, you can even outplay them without a hand, given both missed flop.
: But that doesn't mean you should play fish every hand using any two cards
: and go out of line too much.
| d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | | p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 10 http://www.pokernews.com/strategy/preflop-aggression-in-live-ca
Another article on this subject. I agree with a lot of points of the
author. I started with live cash game, actually not used to online cash
game at beginning when starting 2-4 Rush back then. A lot of more 3 betting
online and a lot of players would like to put whole stack in preflop with hands like JJ, AK.
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: bobo 在理
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