l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 1 Christian belief & value system shalln't be imposed upon the non-Christians
, especially G&L.
But can gay couples legally force a Christian church to host their wedding
ceremony and bless their gay marriage as holy matrimony, on the ground of
non-discrimination? Will any church be sued if it refuse to? What's your thoughts on this? |
G*M
发帖数: 6042 | |
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 3 sorry i don't know much about G&L issues and it seems you have a lot to say
. I'm all ears.
【在 G*M 的大作中提到】
: 唉，有点常识好不好?
|
B********e
发帖数: 19317 | |
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 5
NONE unless you (for whatever reason) want to host it in a church.
【在 B********e 的大作中提到】
: 婚礼仪式跟教会/堂有什么干连？
|
B********e
发帖数: 19317 | 6
再看一遍你的OP。。。
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: NONE unless you (for whatever reason) want to host it in a church.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 7 sorry if I didn't make it clear -- I'm wondering if anyone can sue a church
or pastor because the church or the pastor refuse to host a gay wedding?
【在 B********e 的大作中提到】
:
: 再看一遍你的OP。。。
|
B********e
发帖数: 19317 | 8
既然婚礼仪式跟教堂/会木有必然联系，告啥？
听说过有人控告孔夫子庙里面不安观音像么？
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: sorry if I didn't make it clear -- I'm wondering if anyone can sue a church
: or pastor because the church or the pastor refuse to host a gay wedding?
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 9 NO.
Some churches won't event marry those had divorced.
No gay is demanding that.
church
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: sorry if I didn't make it clear -- I'm wondering if anyone can sue a church
: or pastor because the church or the pastor refuse to host a gay wedding?
|
w*******e
发帖数: 6802 | 10 在教堂结婚是大多数美国人的习俗吧。
自打纽约州允许同性恋结婚的法律颁布后，
仙鹤弟兄提的问题，已经成为当地牧师可能面临的现实问题了。 |
|
|
B********e
发帖数: 19317 | 11
纽约是第几个允许同性结婚的州？
【在 w*******e 的大作中提到】
: 在教堂结婚是大多数美国人的习俗吧。
: 自打纽约州允许同性恋结婚的法律颁布后，
: 仙鹤弟兄提的问题，已经成为当地牧师可能面临的现实问题了。
|
w*******e
发帖数: 6802 | 12 好像是第4个吧。
【在 B********e 的大作中提到】
:
: 纽约是第几个允许同性结婚的州？
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 13
I guess only for Christians.
Exactly. My pastor mentioned this concern regarding the recent pass of the
gay marriage law in NY. It will lead to more legal disputes -- Gays sue the
church for not performing gay marriages, and church members sue the church
for performing gay marriages.
【在 w*******e 的大作中提到】
: 在教堂结婚是大多数美国人的习俗吧。
: 自打纽约州允许同性恋结婚的法律颁布后，
: 仙鹤弟兄提的问题，已经成为当地牧师可能面临的现实问题了。
|
w*******e
发帖数: 6802 | 14 是啊，我在教会也听过牧师提过类似的担心呢。
the
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: I guess only for Christians.
: Exactly. My pastor mentioned this concern regarding the recent pass of the
: gay marriage law in NY. It will lead to more legal disputes -- Gays sue the
: church for not performing gay marriages, and church members sue the church
: for performing gay marriages.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 15
Gay Rights, Religious Liberties: A Three-Act Story
"As gay couples in California head to the courthouse starting Monday to get
legally married, there are signs of a coming storm. Two titanic legal
principles are crashing on the steps of the church, synagogue and mosque:
equal treatment for same-sex couples on the one hand, and the freedom to
exercise religious beliefs on the other.
The collision that will play out over the next few years will be filled with
pathos on both sides.
....
Now parochial schools, "parachurch" organizations such as Catholic Charities and businesses that refuse to serve gay couples are being sued
— and so far, the religious groups are losing.
....
"
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91486340
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: NO.
: Some churches won't event marry those had divorced.
: No gay is demanding that.
:
: church
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | |
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 17
"一樣的" -- is it a personal view, or fact based on bibilical references.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 當年教堂也不給黑人結婚，一樣的。
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 18 just fact.
biblical, not bibilical.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: "一樣的" -- is it a personal view, or fact based on bibilical references.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 19
quote the verses to support your claim then.
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: just fact.
: biblical, not bibilical.
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 20 human rights vs. Religious Liberties
"
Wedding services:
A same sex couple in Albuquerque asked a photographer,
Elaine Huguenin, to shoot their commitment ceremony. The photographer
declined, saying her Christian beliefs prevented her from sanctioning same-
sex unions. The couple sued, and the New Mexico Human Rights Commission
found the photographer guilty of discrimination. It ordered her to pay the
lesbian couple's legal fees ($6,600). The photographer is appealing.
"
"
Parochial schools:
California Lutheran High School, a Protestant school in Wildomar, holds that homosexuality is a sin. After the school suspended two girls who were allegedly in a lesbian relationship, the girls' parents sued, saying the school was violating the state's civil rights act protecting gay men and lesbians from discrimination. The case is before a state judge.
" |
|
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 21
You mistakenly thought there are facts in bible.
Did I say bible doesn't allow? I said some churches didn't allow
blacks to get married there.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: human rights vs. Religious Liberties
: "
: Wedding services:
: A same sex couple in Albuquerque asked a photographer,
: Elaine Huguenin, to shoot their commitment ceremony. The photographer
: declined, saying her Christian beliefs prevented her from sanctioning same-
: sex unions. The couple sued, and the New Mexico Human Rights Commission
: found the photographer guilty of discrimination. It ordered her to pay the
: lesbian couple's legal fees ($6,600). The photographer is appealing.
: "
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 22
I'm questioning the "一樣的" part of your assertion "當年教堂也不給黑人結婚
，一樣的。" From Christian & Bible's perspective, how is not supporting gay
marriage, which is based on Bible, comparable to ("一樣的") "not supporting marriage of the colored (which has no bibilical backing)" as you claimed?
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
:
: You mistakenly thought there are facts in bible.
: Did I say bible doesn't allow? I said some churches didn't allow
: blacks to get married there.
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 23 Where did bible say Church should marry Africans? Verses please.
again, it's biblical, not bibilical.
gay
supporting marriage of the colored (which has no bibilical backing)" as you
claimed?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: I'm questioning the "一樣的" part of your assertion "當年教堂也不給黑人結婚
: ，一樣的。" From Christian & Bible's perspective, how is not supporting gay
: marriage, which is based on Bible, comparable to ("一樣的") "not supporting marriage of the colored (which has no bibilical backing)" as you claimed?
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 24 同性恋couple可以告教堂，但是我认为按照现有的法律同性恋couple是告不赢的。因为
equal right只保证基本人权的相同，不保证对人的所有方面的权利都相同。而且我认
为世俗法律也只能做到保证基本人权的相同，没法规定对所有人的任何权利都完全相同
。能不能结婚我认为算基本人权，在特定的教堂结婚我认为不算基本人权。很难用不在
某个特定的教堂结婚作为自己的基本人权受到了侵犯的理由。教堂的婚礼在世俗法律上
跟政府机关的法律效力一样。如果追求的是在教堂结婚的社会意义，那么现在支持同性
恋婚礼的教堂也不少了。这些都能满足的情况下非要去不想给你做仪式的教堂结婚，然
后告人家，我个人认为是对equal right 的abuse.
如果是因为对圣经理解不同，非要教堂保佑婚礼的话，这恐怕更不能去法院解决，法院
不管神学矛盾。
Christians
thoughts on this?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: Christian belief & value system shalln't be imposed upon the non-Christians
: , especially G&L.
: But can gay couples legally force a Christian church to host their wedding
: ceremony and bless their gay marriage as holy matrimony, on the ground of
: non-discrimination? Will any church be sued if it refuse to? What's your thoughts on this?
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 25
I agree with you but unfortunately it seems the churches may lose the legal
battle -- refer to some of the cases posted before.
"Wedding facilities:
Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association of New Jersey, a Methodist organization, refused to rent its boardwalk pavilion to a lesbian couple for their civil union ceremony. The couple filed a complaint with the New Jersey Division on Civil Rights. The division ruled that the boardwalk property was open for public use, therefore the Methodist group could not discriminate against gay couples using it. In the interim, the state's Department of Environmental Protection revoked a portion of the association's tax benefits. The case is ongoing.
"
【在 t*******d 的大作中提到】
: 同性恋couple可以告教堂，但是我认为按照现有的法律同性恋couple是告不赢的。因为
: equal right只保证基本人权的相同，不保证对人的所有方面的权利都相同。而且我认
: 为世俗法律也只能做到保证基本人权的相同，没法规定对所有人的任何权利都完全相同
: 。能不能结婚我认为算基本人权，在特定的教堂结婚我认为不算基本人权。很难用不在
: 某个特定的教堂结婚作为自己的基本人权受到了侵犯的理由。教堂的婚礼在世俗法律上
: 跟政府机关的法律效力一样。如果追求的是在教堂结婚的社会意义，那么现在支持同性
: 恋婚礼的教堂也不少了。这些都能满足的情况下非要去不想给你做仪式的教堂结婚，然
: 后告人家，我个人认为是对equal right 的abuse.
: 如果是因为对圣经理解不同，非要教堂保佑婚礼的话，这恐怕更不能去法院解决，法院
: 不管神学矛盾。
|
C****i
发帖数: 1776 | 26 印象中通过同性恋婚姻的周同时也同意教堂可以不为那些人举办婚礼的。
都同性恋了还要求神的祝福？
不过也有些有执照的牧师和教堂是专门为所有的人举办婚礼的，以前看过新闻。
legal
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: I agree with you but unfortunately it seems the churches may lose the legal
: battle -- refer to some of the cases posted before.
: "Wedding facilities:
: Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association of New Jersey, a Methodist organization, refused to rent its boardwalk pavilion to a lesbian couple for their civil union ceremony. The couple filed a complaint with the New Jersey Division on Civil Rights. The division ruled that the boardwalk property was open for public use, therefore the Methodist group could not discriminate against gay couples using it. In the interim, the state's Department of Environmental Protection revoked a portion of the association's tax benefits. The case is ongoing.
: "
|
l**********t
发帖数: 5754 | 27
you never know -- I just found a case where a gay suing Bible publishers on
anti-homosexuality verses in the Bible.
【在 C****i 的大作中提到】
: 印象中通过同性恋婚姻的周同时也同意教堂可以不为那些人举办婚礼的。
: 都同性恋了还要求神的祝福？
: 不过也有些有执照的牧师和教堂是专门为所有的人举办婚礼的，以前看过新闻。
:
: legal
|
C****i
发帖数: 1776 | 28 哦，真是无奇不有。以前听说过台湾有人告说圣经少儿不宜，呵呵。
on
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: you never know -- I just found a case where a gay suing Bible publishers on
: anti-homosexuality verses in the Bible.
|
B******7
发帖数: 883 | 29 同性恋怎么不求神的祝福？同性恋基督徒的人有的是。
【在 C****i 的大作中提到】
: 印象中通过同性恋婚姻的周同时也同意教堂可以不为那些人举办婚礼的。
: 都同性恋了还要求神的祝福？
: 不过也有些有执照的牧师和教堂是专门为所有的人举办婚礼的，以前看过新闻。
:
: legal
|
C****i
发帖数: 1776 | 30 同性恋是罪
基督徒必须悔改
接受基督的救恩
不再犯罪，成圣
只要他坚持继续同性恋，就是继续犯罪，违背神的律法，事实上也就没有重生得救
【在 B******7 的大作中提到】
: 同性恋怎么不求神的祝福？同性恋基督徒的人有的是。
|
|
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 31 人性太少
【在 C****i 的大作中提到】
: 同性恋是罪
: 基督徒必须悔改
: 接受基督的救恩
: 不再犯罪，成圣
: 只要他坚持继续同性恋，就是继续犯罪，违背神的律法，事实上也就没有重生得救
|
C****i
发帖数: 1776 | 32 我个人认为：真正重生得救的，即便以前是同性恋，也会被治好并正常的。
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 人性太少
|
E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 33 我个人认为：真正重生得救的，即便以前是基督徒，也会被治好并正常的。
【在 C****i 的大作中提到】
: 我个人认为：真正重生得救的，即便以前是同性恋，也会被治好并正常的。
|
l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 34 好奇下，有没有人告过天主教教堂不给非天主教徒结婚的？
Christians
thoughts on this?
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
: Christian belief & value system shalln't be imposed upon the non-Christians
: , especially G&L.
: But can gay couples legally force a Christian church to host their wedding
: ceremony and bless their gay marriage as holy matrimony, on the ground of
: non-discrimination? Will any church be sued if it refuse to? What's your thoughts on this?
|
t*******d
发帖数: 2570 | 35 我觉得啊，告状跟反告状是大家掌握法律倒底表达的是什么的必要步骤。在同性恋的问
题上就是equal right的界限跟religious freedom的界限法律上倒底划在哪里。这两个
词说说简单，真要把界限仔细的划出来就不简单了因为同性恋的平等权利这个算是比较
新的事物，所以以前的界限可能又要重新划一下。。所以我认为告状是我们这个社会把
法律界限找出来的方式。希望宗教人士也不要轻易放弃反告状。大家都是在告状跟反告
状中明白法律倒底是在说什么的。呵呵。
legal
organization, refused to rent its boardwalk pavilion to a lesbian couple for
their civil union ceremony. The couple filed a complaint with the New
Jersey Division on Civil Rights. The division ruled that the boardwalk
property was open for public use, therefore the Methodist group could not
discriminate against gay couples using it. In the interim, the state's
Department of Environmental Protection revoked a portion of the associat:
ion's tax benefits. The case is ongoing.
【在 l**********t 的大作中提到】
:
: you never know -- I just found a case where a gay suing Bible publishers on
: anti-homosexuality verses in the Bible.
|
