T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 1 I read more of runsun's post:
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Wisdom/31523515.html
and I seem to understand more of what he has said.
One question remains, especially on this entry of his:
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Wisdom/31524839_0.html
I have no problem to accept this statement:
这个世界，真正存在的，只有一刹那，短短的一刹那。
However, I don't think that his example using 天上有很多的星星, which may
have faded before their lights reach us, is enough.
It is okay that the world refreshes itself at each moment, but why does it
flow as if these frames make up a movie, but not just a mingle-mangle of
many irrelevant frames?
Why would the frames make up our impressions of the time and memories? | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 2 Quantum mechanics are true, as true as Newtonian theories, and they are
observable in different scales, but they are both in effect all the time
everywhere.
In Quantum scale, the world is indeed discrete, but it does not negate the
appearance of the continuity of our daily events, as well as reincarnations. | J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 3 My understanding is these frames are just arising and going away, which is
happening in quite short time. And we human beings can not sense this in our
normal conscious thinking, therefore it is like a movie, like thousands of
shining stars.
The signals from the frames are dealt by our mind, thereby the impression of
time and memories are formed.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I read more of runsun's post:
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Wisdom/31523515.html
: and I seem to understand more of what he has said.
: One question remains, especially on this entry of his:
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Wisdom/31524839_0.html
: I have no problem to accept this statement:
: 这个世界，真正存在的，只有一刹那，短短的一刹那。
: However, I don't think that his example using 天上有很多的星星, which may
: have faded before their lights reach us, is enough.
: It is okay that the world refreshes itself at each moment, but why does it
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 4 Since we are human beings, our mind/brain/neural system deal with the
information from 'five aggregates' normally into continuity.
But each event is just happening in very short time, we only can realize
this in Vipassana meditation, to see the world is indeed discrete.
They are not contradictory to each other.
But continuity makes us form the ideas of 'I', 'permenant', from which we
are suffering a lot.
reincarnations.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Quantum mechanics are true, as true as Newtonian theories, and they are
: observable in different scales, but they are both in effect all the time
: everywhere.
: In Quantum scale, the world is indeed discrete, but it does not negate the
: appearance of the continuity of our daily events, as well as reincarnations.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 5 Yes, thank you, I understand this, and I want to know why the fact that
things refresh at the smallest scale possible has effects on our usual
understanding of the world.
The frames are here, this notion sits well with me, and I fully accept that
everything is transient and ever changing.
My question is why the frames are so much in order, but not just random?
I guess that I want to say that the order of the frames is also very
meaningful, but the fact alone that there are refreshing frames does not
explain enough.
happening in quite short time. And we human beings can not sense this in
our normal conscious thinking, therefore it is like a movie, like thousands
of shining stars.The signals from the frames are dealt by our mind, thereby
the impression of time and memories are formed.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: My understanding is these frames are just arising and going away, which is
: happening in quite short time. And we human beings can not sense this in our
: normal conscious thinking, therefore it is like a movie, like thousands of
: shining stars.
: The signals from the frames are dealt by our mind, thereby the impression of
: time and memories are formed.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 6 The order of frames is meaningful for what?
:-)
that
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Yes, thank you, I understand this, and I want to know why the fact that
: things refresh at the smallest scale possible has effects on our usual
: understanding of the world.
: The frames are here, this notion sits well with me, and I fully accept that
: everything is transient and ever changing.
: My question is why the frames are so much in order, but not just random?
: I guess that I want to say that the order of the frames is also very
: meaningful, but the fact alone that there are refreshing frames does not
: explain enough.
:
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 7 "we only can realize this in Vipassana meditation, to see the world is
indeed discrete."
Yes, I believe so, and I accept that notion of the discrete world without my
seeing it or feeling it. Perhaps you can call it faith, or just that I find
this notion making sense to me.
I don't think that the feeling of continuity implies permanency though, at
least for myself. I don't think that things are ever permanent. Everything
is for ever changing. Or changing is the norm or the only thing that's
constant.
It's such a blessing that things are changing all the time, so that lessons
can be learned. | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 8 For our understanding, memories, lessons learned.
It is not random.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: The order of frames is meaningful for what?
: :-)
:
: that
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 9 yeah, I also have the faith.
We know this by intellectual thinking is not enough, because we can not
resist the information coming from 'five aggregates'.
Even we totally agree and accept the theories of Anattā, dukkha, and anicca
in Buddhism, we can not be free.
The feeling of continuity does not imply permanency, it is really doing sth
on our mind, e.g generating defilements.
my
find
lessons
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: "we only can realize this in Vipassana meditation, to see the world is
: indeed discrete."
: Yes, I believe so, and I accept that notion of the discrete world without my
: seeing it or feeling it. Perhaps you can call it faith, or just that I find
: this notion making sense to me.
: I don't think that the feeling of continuity implies permanency though, at
: least for myself. I don't think that things are ever permanent. Everything
: is for ever changing. Or changing is the norm or the only thing that's
: constant.
: It's such a blessing that things are changing all the time, so that lessons
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 10 I can not see the logical basis for this, so I will not think it in this way.
:p
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: For our understanding, memories, lessons learned.
: It is not random.
| | | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 11 "The feeling of continuity does not imply permanency." This is what I said
ah. I do feel so in heart.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: yeah, I also have the faith.
: We know this by intellectual thinking is not enough, because we can not
: resist the information coming from 'five aggregates'.
: Even we totally agree and accept the theories of Anattā, dukkha, and anicca
: in Buddhism, we can not be free.
: The feeling of continuity does not imply permanency, it is really doing sth
: on our mind, e.g generating defilements.
:
: my
: find
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 12 hand! :-)
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: "The feeling of continuity does not imply permanency." This is what I said
: ah. I do feel so in heart.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 13 Thanks for all your response.
May I know what you think about the feeling of continuity?
The fact that there are frames coming and going is just one part of the
story. It does not explain all.
If it is all that one needs to know, why aren't the frames shuffling around
randomly? That is also one option, besides the option in reality that they
are coming and going in seemingly order.
way.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: I can not see the logical basis for this, so I will not think it in this way.
: :p
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 14
Good question,
I heard that in fact the impression of order is formed by ourselves,
we human see many things always happen in such way, and we call it order.
For a person who can see many different realms, they know this is not order,
for example, in our world, if the temprature gets lower tthan zero degree,
the water will get frozen.
but in another world, the water will not frozen by lowing the temperature,
but by slapping on the surface of water.
My understanding is the so called order is just a collective karma for our
world.
I knew that many philosophers and scientists questioned whether the "order"
really exist or are they just created by human mind.
The problem is they don't know how to find the truth,
and even worse, they don't know if it's really possible for our human being to
find the truth.
is
thousands
thereby
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Yes, thank you, I understand this, and I want to know why the fact that
: things refresh at the smallest scale possible has effects on our usual
: understanding of the world.
: The frames are here, this notion sits well with me, and I fully accept that
: everything is transient and ever changing.
: My question is why the frames are so much in order, but not just random?
: I guess that I want to say that the order of the frames is also very
: meaningful, but the fact alone that there are refreshing frames does not
: explain enough.
:
| w*********r
发帖数: 2192 | 15 假如对世界的COMMON认识， 是来自共业， 那你说说共识（共业） 是怎么形成的？
是与生俱来还是一代代积累的？
我觉得识里面的种子， 和遗传信息的基因片段
有点相似， 可能是一代代像遗传信息一样传下来。
你说有些人能看到不同的 realms， 可能有些种子也像一些基因
片段一样， 一般不能激活了， 但在一些特定条件下又被激活？
order,
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
:
: Good question,
: I heard that in fact the impression of order is formed by ourselves,
: we human see many things always happen in such way, and we call it order.
: For a person who can see many different realms, they know this is not order,
: for example, in our world, if the temprature gets lower tthan zero degree,
: the water will get frozen.
: but in another world, the water will not frozen by lowing the temperature,
: but by slapping on the surface of water.
: My understanding is the so called order is just a collective karma for our
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 16 遗传基因，只是我们欲界的幻相吧，这是我的初步理解，不是很清楚。
三界里还有“色界、无色界”，好像不是可以用欲界现象、规律来约束的。
从根本上说，物质（当然包括基因）本来就是幻中幻了。
degree,
temperature,
our
【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: 假如对世界的COMMON认识， 是来自共业， 那你说说共识（共业） 是怎么形成的？
: 是与生俱来还是一代代积累的？
: 我觉得识里面的种子， 和遗传信息的基因片段
: 有点相似， 可能是一代代像遗传信息一样传下来。
: 你说有些人能看到不同的 realms， 可能有些种子也像一些基因
: 片段一样， 一般不能激活了， 但在一些特定条件下又被激活？
:
: order,
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 17 Hi, freeman08, thanks for your input.
I have a couple of follow-up questions.
1. "For a person who can see many different realms, they know this is not
order".
Regarding this, I am not saying that our physical world is the only
dimension, or realm. Actually I think not, as there are that spiritual
dimension. Souls reincarnate, and they rest there in between, and they
interact with this physical dimension. However, within this physical
dimension, things seem ordered.
Let's take a movie for an example, what happens in the movie is in order by
itself, and the impression of the movie is made from many frames. Relative
to the movie, we are in a different dimension. We see in a movie in the
Quantum scale is pixels or less. But we don't say that the movie is not in
order. It is in order.
2. "My understanding is the so called order is just a collective karma for
our world."
Can you explain this more?
3. "Many philosophers and scientists questioned whether the "order"
really exist or are they just created by human mind. The problem is they don
't know how to find the truth, and even worse, they don't know if it's
really possible for our human being to find the truth."
If "they" are so, how about you? This statement sounds quite condescending
to me. Perhaps you don't mean it, well, no matter what, I'd like to know
whether you have the answer. | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 18 I googled more on 欲界、色界、无色界，合称三界.
However much I read, I don't like any practice that is penalty (Hell or 鬼，
畜生，地狱 三恶途) or award (nirvana) driven.
I believe in love, that's who we are, and that's how we manifest. | J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 19 Love is not who we are, it is only a part of who we are.
And love can make us manifest better, we manifest in quite a lot different
ways.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I googled more on 欲界、色界、无色界，合称三界.
: However much I read, I don't like any practice that is penalty (Hell or 鬼，
: 畜生，地狱 三恶途) or award (nirvana) driven.
: I believe in love, that's who we are, and that's how we manifest.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 20 I know what you are saying, but I do mean that love is what we are.
This word of love I mean is not the romantic love alone, or parental love,
or friendship and on and on, it is that unconditional acceptance, the well
within me to feel connected/supported/trusting in the Universe. Some
specific forms of love can show this possibility of this love, but each one
of them alone does not equal to this love.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Love is not who we are, it is only a part of who we are.
: And love can make us manifest better, we manifest in quite a lot different
: ways.
| | | f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 21
本篇我所说的，都是理解，不是见解。
理解：就是根据别人说的道理，大概有些解释。
见解：是自己亲自见到，而有一定的解释。
（差别在有无实证，有无真实见到。
当然，即使真的见到了,其解释也不一定对，
而没见到的人，也许他背诵的理解是对的;
最牛的当然是亲自见到并且解释的很对。）
或者换一种说法，当人们谈order的时候，其实心里想的是“规律”，“定理”。
是时间上不可变的那种关系，一个事情必然引起另一个事情的关系。
定理，就是决定不移的道理。
但是就我理解：在解脱者来看，这个现象间的不移的道理，其实是不存在的，
当这个规律被打破时，人们称之为神通，或则说是超自然力量。
就是跟我们所习惯的自然界的关系不一致了。
by
就是共业，就是一群有情因为互相关联的业力，出生在同一个世界，
而这个世界就是这样表现的。
别的众生因为业力不同，可以生活在别的世界。其表现又不一样。
比如地球人的共业局限之一就是，看不见天人。
don
我相信有些人通过实证，见到了。他们不是在说妄语。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Hi, freeman08, thanks for your input.
: I have a couple of follow-up questions.
: 1. "For a person who can see many different realms, they know this is not
: order".
: Regarding this, I am not saying that our physical world is the only
: dimension, or realm. Actually I think not, as there are that spiritual
: dimension. Souls reincarnate, and they rest there in between, and they
: interact with this physical dimension. However, within this physical
: dimension, things seem ordered.
: Let's take a movie for an example, what happens in the movie is in order by
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 22 I know what you mean, I know it is not not only the love between lovers.
But still love is not what we are, it is only a part.
one
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I know what you are saying, but I do mean that love is what we are.
: This word of love I mean is not the romantic love alone, or parental love,
: or friendship and on and on, it is that unconditional acceptance, the well
: within me to feel connected/supported/trusting in the Universe. Some
: specific forms of love can show this possibility of this love, but each one
: of them alone does not equal to this love.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 23 Yes, that's the difference in our opinions.
Also as I mentioned earlier, I don't believe in Hell, but that could be part
of Buddhism.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: I know what you mean, I know it is not not only the love between lovers.
: But still love is not what we are, it is only a part.
:
: one
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 24 根本上说，penalty是自己造的。亦真亦幻。
佛或解脱者只是描述现象，而不是他们来惩罚别人或喜欢惩罚人。
如果没有苦，就不需要佛来宣传解脱道了，也不需要耶稣来宣传good news了。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I googled more on 欲界、色界、无色界，合称三界.
: However much I read, I don't like any practice that is penalty (Hell or 鬼，
: 畜生，地狱 三恶途) or award (nirvana) driven.
: I believe in love, that's who we are, and that's how we manifest.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 25 yeah, we are just saying our opinions.
I do not care whether there is hell or not, this part of Buddhism is not my
current focus in my Buddhism study.
:-)
part
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Yes, that's the difference in our opinions.
: Also as I mentioned earlier, I don't believe in Hell, but that could be part
: of Buddhism.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 26 Hi, freeman08:
Thanks for your clarification.
This is a very good clarification, and let's talk about the following
opinions.
时间上不可变的那种关系，一个事情必然引起另一个事情的关系。
When I used the word "order", I meant their relative sequence, or perhaps
more in time (of course the term "time" can be defined and talked more later
), but not a definite causality.
Theories in this physical world can be thought of as simplified models,
which tried to decouple the effects from many other things. However, this
world is interconnected as ONE, and the theories (or models) can't capture
it all.
You could say that the causality is the basis for the order, but that
causality is the causality taking the whole world as ONE, but not the
causality based on certain simplified physical rules (models).
超自然力量 is not something that surprises me. It's another kind of ability
that somebody has, others doesn't have. The fact that some people can't do
it does not prove that such things are impossible. However, we don't want to
take anything that one claims as true, as there are bogus claims or
phenomenon out there.
Could you explain more what is 天人? If nobody sees it (or senses it in a
general way), how do you know that it exists?
I am interested to know what these 实证人 have to say about "the truth" that
used you mention in the first post, especially on the order of the frames
that I am trying to find an answer. Thanks! | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 27 As I read on this board, the word 苦 could mean a lot of things, including
the ever-changing nature of everything, as it is not as perfect as in
nirvana. Perhaps you meant suffering when you mentioned 苦. Suffering is
from un-investigated thoughts that are not in accordance with the reality.
Salvation is not from outside. Only oneself can liberate oneself.
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
: 根本上说，penalty是自己造的。亦真亦幻。
: 佛或解脱者只是描述现象，而不是他们来惩罚别人或喜欢惩罚人。
: 如果没有苦，就不需要佛来宣传解脱道了，也不需要耶稣来宣传good news了。
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 28 Yes. Also, I'd like to know, in your opinion, what other parts are there in
us besides love.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: yeah, we are just saying our opinions.
: I do not care whether there is hell or not, this part of Buddhism is not my
: current focus in my Buddhism study.
: :-)
:
: part
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 29
这个基本道理上我同意。un-investigated thoughts. yes。
关键在于how to investigate them.and how do you know you
have investigated thoroghtly.
yes
but others can remind us how to do that.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: As I read on this board, the word 苦 could mean a lot of things, including
: the ever-changing nature of everything, as it is not as perfect as in
: nirvana. Perhaps you meant suffering when you mentioned 苦. Suffering is
: from un-investigated thoughts that are not in accordance with the reality.
: Salvation is not from outside. Only oneself can liberate oneself.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 30 I see that more answers lead to more questions.
What is that 东西 to connect 外在的苦和内在的苦? Or first thing, how do you
define 外在的苦和内在的苦?
I still want to know your answers to my earlier questions. :-)
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
:
: 这个基本道理上我同意。un-investigated thoughts. yes。
: 关键在于how to investigate them.and how do you know you
: have investigated thoroghtly.
: yes
: but others can remind us how to do that.
| | | f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 31
later
ability
to
我知道你的意思，其实我理解也不是所有的事情都没规律（这个不好说），
如果完全无法可循，佛也没办法教解脱道了。
还是有一定的方法导致一定的结果。（但这个具体有什么限制，就超出我的理解范围了）
我的意思是，三界内现象的关联，不是一定不移的。
不是物理学家可以用他们的方法说定了就不能被人变了的。
that
佛经里很多，佛到天人那里讲经的故事。
如果佛看不到六道的真实情况，他谈六道，岂不是大妄语？
然后当然我们不少师兄师姐说能看到。
原来opps等都说过可以看到阿修罗等。（当然不止这些）
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Hi, freeman08:
: Thanks for your clarification.
: This is a very good clarification, and let's talk about the following
: opinions.
: 时间上不可变的那种关系，一个事情必然引起另一个事情的关系。
: When I used the word "order", I meant their relative sequence, or perhaps
: more in time (of course the term "time" can be defined and talked more later
: ), but not a definite causality.
: Theories in this physical world can be thought of as simplified models,
: which tried to decouple the effects from many other things. However, this
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 32 How to investigate one's thoughts?
Ask "is it true?" whenever a thought comes up. See Byron Katie's The Work.
It does not matter it's true or not, but give it a listen, and master all
your emotions to react to each thought and its turn-around thoughts. In that
way, the emotions are released and more clarity is gained. This is a very
effective approach.
Others can share their experiences and guidance on certain procedures, but
it's up to oneself to determine whether he is willing to change.
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
:
: later
: ability
: to
: 我知道你的意思，其实我理解也不是所有的事情都没规律（这个不好说），
: 如果完全无法可循，佛也没办法教解脱道了。
: 还是有一定的方法导致一定的结果。（但这个具体有什么限制，就超出我的理解范围了）
: 我的意思是，三界内现象的关联，不是一定不移的。
: 不是物理学家可以用他们的方法说定了就不能被人变了的。
: that
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 33
you
就是你说的un-investigated thought.
with a lot of detail.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I see that more answers lead to more questions.
: What is that 东西 to connect 外在的苦和内在的苦? Or first thing, how do you
: define 外在的苦和内在的苦?
: I still want to know your answers to my earlier questions. :-)
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 34 Eh, physicists are not the ones who define the rules of the Universe, they are just discovering the rules. Their models are for ever adjusting to be as consistent to the Universe as possible.
As you can tell, I don't read 佛经, or at least not yet. Could you find me a link on 天人? Thanks a lot in advance!
p.s. you don't think Buddha and some seasoned Buddhists as 地球人 ah. :-)
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
:
: you
: 就是你说的un-investigated thought.
: with a lot of detail.
| w*********r
发帖数: 2192 | 35 可是
唯识
里面的谈到的识的种子，
我觉得就是类似基因片段。
基因决定了一个具体功能的实现，
而一个种子定义了一段因果关系。
而共业可以是人类识别功能中共享的对一些因果关系的认定。
你说什么都是幻， 没有信息量呀。
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
: 遗传基因，只是我们欲界的幻相吧，这是我的初步理解，不是很清楚。
: 三界里还有“色界、无色界”，好像不是可以用欲界现象、规律来约束的。
: 从根本上说，物质（当然包括基因）本来就是幻中幻了。
:
: degree,
: temperature,
: our
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 36 1. 这个故事是密勒日巴女弟子的故事。
是我当时曾经问过W的，我想古代人就是好骗啊，她这样飞起来怎么就成了往生净土了
呢？
我如果现代人坐个飞船跟着她飞，她到底能飞到哪儿？
人家回答说，她想飞哪里飞那里，你看着她他就可以一直飞，你一扭头，她就能不见了。
------------------------
巴达朋依照指示而修，深观自心法性之实相，终于即生得大成就。最后她离开此世时，
举身腾空，手摇铃鼓，乐声遍空，即此肉身往生空行净土。在密勒日巴的众大弟子中，
她是「领袖女众的」四大姐妹之一。这是密勒日巴在绛地的格巴勒桑处遇见女弟子巴
达朋的故事。
------------------------
2. 清净道论里的故事:
据说：有一次给孤独居士听了世尊说法之后说：“尊师！明
天请带五百比丘，到我的家里来受供”，他这样请过之后便回去
了。世尊听许了之后，度过了那一天的残日及夜分，早起时，观
察一万世界。此时有一名难陀优波难陀龙王映入他的智眼内，世
尊想道：“这龙王映入我的智眼，是否具有皈依三宝的因缘？”
399 他察知那原是一个不信三宝的邪见者。又想道：“谁能使他脱离
邪见？”他知道大目犍连长老可以去教化他。到了天亮，做了洗
脸漱口等身体的工作之后，对尊者阿难陀说：“阿难陀，去叫五
百比丘，说如来要到天上去旅行”。
这一天，诸龙已经预备了为难陀优波难陀的宴会。他（龙
王）坐在天宝的座上，有持天的白伞者、三种舞女及诸龙众围绕
着，望着装在天器之内的各种饮食。那时世尊，使龙王看见他和
五百比丘经过他的宫殿之上，向三十三天界行去。此时，难陀
优波难陀便起了这样的恶见：“真的，这些秃头沙门，次第的经
过我的上方世界，出入于三十三天界，自今以后，不许他们走在
我的上面，散布他的足尘”，便起来跑到须弥山之麓，舍了他的
真相，盘绕须弥山七匝，展开他的头在上面，又把头从上而向
下，遮住三十三天，令不能见。当时尊者护国对世尊说：“尊
师，从前我站在这里，可以看见须弥山，看见须弥山腰，看见三
十三天，看见最胜宫，看见最胜宫上面的旗。尊师，何因何缘，
现在却不能见须弥山..乃至不能见最胜宫上面的旗？”“护
国，因为难陀优波难陀龙王对你们发怒了，他盘绕了须弥山七
匝，以他的头遮住上面，而成黑暗”。“那末，尊师，让我去降
伏他吧？”世尊没有允许。于是尊者拔提，尊者罗睺罗及一切比
丘，都次第的起而请求，但世尊都没有允许。最后，大目犍连长
老说：“尊师，让我去降伏他吧”。世尊听许道：“目犍连，去
降伏他”。长老舍了自己的本相，化成龙王之形，盘绕须弥山十
四匝，把自己的头放在他的头之上，把他和须弥山一起捆紧在里
面。龙王即吐烟。长老说：“不只是你的身体有烟，我也有的”，
亦吐烟。龙王的烟不能恼乱长老，但长老的烟却能恼乱龙王。于
是龙王放火。长老亦放火说：“不只是你的身体有火，我也有
的”。龙王的火焰不能热恼长老，但长老的火焰却使龙王热恼。
龙王想：“此人能捆我和须弥山，又吐烟，又放火”，便问道：
“你是谁？”“难陀，我是目犍连”。“尊师，请现你的比丘相
吧”。长老舍了火龙之身而成小身，从龙王的右边耳孔而入，从
左边耳孔而出，从左边耳孔而入，从右边耳孔而出；又从右边鼻
孔而入，从左边鼻孔而出，从左边鼻孔而入，从右边鼻孔而出。
于是龙王张口，长老便从他的口入其腹中，自东至西自西至东的
经行。世尊说：“目犍连，目犍连，你应该当心！此龙有大神
变”。长老说：“尊师，我已修习多作及作为车乘作基础实行熟
练而善精勤于四神足，尊师，随便难陀优波难陀对我怎样，我将
降伏一百一千及百千像难陀优波难陀这样的龙王”。龙王想道：
“他进去时，我没有看见，等他出来时，我要把他放在牙齿之间
咬死他”，说道：“尊师，出来吧，不要在我的腹内往来经行恼
乱我” 。长老便出来， 站在外面。龙王看见了说： “ 这就是
他”！马上自鼻喷气。长老即入第四禅定，龙的鼻气竟不能动他
一毫毛。据说其余的比丘，都可能行目犍连起初所行的一切神
变，但遇到这样的情形，如是迅速寂止入定则不可能。所以世尊
不听许他们去降伏龙王。龙王想：“我的鼻气竟不能动这沙门一
毫毛，沙门实在有大神变”。长老又舍其细小身体，化为金翅鸟，
鼓其翼风来追逐龙王。龙王舍其大龙之身，化为童子之形， 礼拜
长老之足道：“尊师，我现在皈依你了”。长老说：“难陀，导
师来了，我们同去”。他降伏了龙王，使令无毒，捉到世尊的地
方来。龙王顶礼世尊说：“尊师，我今皈依尊师”。世尊说：
“龙王，祝你幸福”！世尊与诸比丘众即来给孤独的家里。给孤
独问道：“尊师，怎么来得这样迟？”“因为目犍连与难陀优波
难陀作战”。“尊师，谁胜谁败？”“目犍连胜，难陀败”。给
孤独说：“尊师，听许于七日间继续受我供食，使我得于七日之
间恭敬长老”。便于七日间，对于以佛陀为首的五百比丘，作大
恭敬。
上面降伏难陀优波难陀之事，
---------------------------------------------
are just discovering the rules. Their models are for ever adjusting to be
as consistent to the Universe as possible.
a link on 天人? Thanks a lot in advance!
围了）我的意思是，三界内现象的关联，不是一定不移的。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Eh, physicists are not the ones who define the rules of the Universe, they are just discovering the rules. Their models are for ever adjusting to be as consistent to the Universe as possible.
: As you can tell, I don't read 佛经, or at least not yet. Could you find me a link on 天人? Thanks a lot in advance!
: p.s. you don't think Buddha and some seasoned Buddhists as 地球人 ah. :-)
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 37
更多的我就没资格说了。本来我们只是share some information. 没资格争论。
我觉得知道有此说法就是了。
【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: 可是
: 唯识
: 里面的谈到的识的种子，
: 我觉得就是类似基因片段。
: 基因决定了一个具体功能的实现，
: 而一个种子定义了一段因果关系。
: 而共业可以是人类识别功能中共享的对一些因果关系的认定。
: 你说什么都是幻， 没有信息量呀。
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 38
佛应该不是那个肉体，他们的存在超乎想象。
记得那个维摩诘经里说，别的世界的菩萨看见佛在我们地球度众生，
佩服的不得了，为什么呢？因为那个世界的众生身材非常高大俊美，
他们赞叹佛为了度众生怎么把自己变成这么小的一个小不点，跟地球人玩呢？
有时候知道点神通，也容易让人把地球的事看淡点。
当然修的不到家的话，太淡也不行，没钱就不是可以靠想象一下伟大人物就解决的。
围了）我的意思是，三界内现象的关联，不是一定不移的。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Eh, physicists are not the ones who define the rules of the Universe, they are just discovering the rules. Their models are for ever adjusting to be as consistent to the Universe as possible.
: As you can tell, I don't read 佛经, or at least not yet. Could you find me a link on 天人? Thanks a lot in advance!
: p.s. you don't think Buddha and some seasoned Buddhists as 地球人 ah. :-)
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 39 看到身边真人的事可能更有印象，下面是一个同修的。
她提到可以看见阿修罗众生等等。（当然不止是这个）
我们看不见，大概就是un-investigated thought blocked our wisdom eye.
not sure, but must be some reason.
----------------------------------------------
发信人: Oops (阿藕), 信区: Wisdom
标 题: Re: J 兄，请
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Mar 27 18:18:06 2000) WWW-POST
:
看到J兄跟大家谈吃素,本一直想参加讨论,但店中的琐事多,坐不下来.
对於Waichi兄一直提及他从不持戒但有戒体,我虽从没私下跟他谈过或了解过,
但我从自己本身之情况来诠译Waichi兄之言,最後还是要向Waichi本人求证.
虽然我只是吃素九年时间,但是肉食对我身体会引起肚子剧痛是从小己有的.
小时候因妈妈无法照顾,让我寄养在山上一亲人主持之寺庙,
我年纪幼小并不知道庙中吃素与在家中是吃肉的,亦没有人告诉我.
在那数年往返家中,我每次回家都先大病一回,次次如是.
及後稍长大,在家中除上学都是坐着做手工帮补家计之用.
我常会肚子忽然剧痛,急如大病,发冷发热,汗如雨下.
家中大多数都没人又没有药吃.
有时我立即喝些茶,渴时想会好的等一下又没事了.
但有时不管用,在无法可用时我通常将自己放松不抵抗,
然後静观这痛可能达到什麽程度(没有办法之下也设法自娱是我的个性.)
发现原来痛至极点会现出一段空白(没有痛与不痛,只是清清明明),
空白过後便没有事一样,百试百灵,很好玩的.
来美国跟我丈夫住後,他後来从事卖肉食生意.
我每次到他店我都头痛及肚痛到面色都白,
有时跟他的工作伙伴一起玩乐,未去前还没事,
一到达不久我即发病,以前都以为自己体弱,
但很奇怪是回家即没事.
後来吃素印心修行,只有在错吃了有荤之成份才会发病.
不过我并不觉得自己是持戒,亦不是为了这个痛苦而吃素,
只觉吃素是本份之事(及为我祖母投生到饿鬼所向自己许下之承诺,我很重承诺.)
有一段时间我家婆买了一些在共修小中心买到一些素食材料很像海鲜的.
那段时间我很专注在内在修行,没有留意自己吃甚麽,
吃完饭肚子微痛知但亦心不在焉,吃了数天,肚痛加剧.
晚上打坐进入禅定,观见自己振动力异常(是低等令人不舒服的),
一大堆修罗众生在我身体穿插而过,每穿过时它们之欲望都从我身现.
若不是我惯於旁颧自己,我连自已之身体反应都不投入,何况别人的.
我当时在观之功能上所以没有恐怕之心,只意识到它们并不知我存在,
对它们来说我是令它们很舒服之能量而矣.
第二天问了我家婆家中有任何新食物之来源.
发觉我只吃过小中心买的食物是从没检查过,包装上居然没有成份,
後来此食物Waichi他们不知是那位师姐化验有鱼胶成份(鱼胶据说是由牛猪之内
指甲打成胶).
现在Waichi 之素食杂货店工作,
订货时有些新产品我没有见过,Saleman又保证没蛋及动物成份的.
货未到时我居然会像小时候之肚痛一样发病,
痛完货送入店我居然会特意检视成份发现有鸡蛋或鱼胶粉.
(说居然因我视力极差,不喜细看东西,非肉眼则不同,细致分明.).
亦试过二次这样.
说这些我想我是没有持戒之观念的,我只有兴趣观,观到戒自然在其中.
现在要收工,匆忙收工.下回分解.
了。
they
me
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
: 1. 这个故事是密勒日巴女弟子的故事。
: 是我当时曾经问过W的，我想古代人就是好骗啊，她这样飞起来怎么就成了往生净土了
: 呢？
: 我如果现代人坐个飞船跟着她飞，她到底能飞到哪儿？
: 人家回答说，她想飞哪里飞那里，你看着她他就可以一直飞，你一扭头，她就能不见了。
: ------------------------
: 巴达朋依照指示而修，深观自心法性之实相，终于即生得大成就。最后她离开此世时，
: 举身腾空，手摇铃鼓，乐声遍空，即此肉身往生空行净土。在密勒日巴的众大弟子中，
: 她是「领袖女众的」四大姐妹之一。这是密勒日巴在绛地的格巴勒桑处遇见女弟子巴
: 达朋的故事。
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 40 Thanks for pasting the stories. I will need more time to read.
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
: 看到身边真人的事可能更有印象，下面是一个同修的。
: 她提到可以看见阿修罗众生等等。（当然不止是这个）
: 我们看不见，大概就是un-investigated thought blocked our wisdom eye.
: not sure, but must be some reason.
: ----------------------------------------------
: 发信人: Oops (阿藕), 信区: Wisdom
: 标 题: Re: J 兄，请
: 发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Mar 27 18:18:06 2000) WWW-POST
: :
: 看到J兄跟大家谈吃素,本一直想参加讨论,但店中的琐事多,坐不下来.
| | | f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 41 其实人的恐惧，或者苦，都是因为自心和现象粘连得太密切了，
任何现象的变化都能引起内心巨大的波浪，导致恐惧。
而异象带来的冲击可能更大一点。所以容易扰人清净。
如果心能面对任何现象而平静不陷入恐惧，其实就破除了苦了。
佛教说的不要“着相”，就是这个原因。
而不着相是需要修才能做到的。因为“着相”有各种各样的变化形式。
所以我觉得，所谓内道外道，要看能否让人心破除对现象的迷惑从而得到真正的安宁。
有些道如果让人越修，心越迷惑于现象，当然是邪道。
另一些人，修来修去，提起神通就是洪水猛兽，那也是变相地迷信而已。
因为不懂，而迷，所以要极力回避其真实性，千万不敢谈。这是不上道。
----------------------------------
不过就我理解神通这事从来不好太谈，就是因为每个人的心理领悟和消化能力不一样，
太多也消化不了，心神不宁。
就好象有人打比方，你明知道纽约街头的人都已经被钱迷住了，
还在街头汽车上大把撒钞票，然后说“大家冷静，钞票不是什么很重要的事情”。
这就是不负责任。因为人心不会一下子改变，肯定大家是要去抢的。街头就要出事故。
但是如果你在一个高等发达的地方，人们确实都知道钱的虚幻性，
那么撒钞票就没什么危害。
你说的Love是根本，我相信是对的，它应该超越任何现象。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Thanks for pasting the stories. I will need more time to read.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 42 Check Chinese dictionary, there are clear definitions of
'理解' and '见解'.
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
: 其实人的恐惧，或者苦，都是因为自心和现象粘连得太密切了，
: 任何现象的变化都能引起内心巨大的波浪，导致恐惧。
: 而异象带来的冲击可能更大一点。所以容易扰人清净。
: 如果心能面对任何现象而平静不陷入恐惧，其实就破除了苦了。
: 佛教说的不要“着相”，就是这个原因。
: 而不着相是需要修才能做到的。因为“着相”有各种各样的变化形式。
: 所以我觉得，所谓内道外道，要看能否让人心破除对现象的迷惑从而得到真正的安宁。
: 有些道如果让人越修，心越迷惑于现象，当然是邪道。
: 另一些人，修来修去，提起神通就是洪水猛兽，那也是变相地迷信而已。
: 因为不懂，而迷，所以要极力回避其真实性，千万不敢谈。这是不上道。
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 43 Yeah, only oneself can liberate oneself!
Suffering is coming from the passive arising and passing away of physical
and mental processes. Unless they are not arising and passing away,
suffering won't stop.
Whenever here is thinking here is suffering.
Nibbāna is a status of no thinking.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: As I read on this board, the word 苦 could mean a lot of things, including
: the ever-changing nature of everything, as it is not as perfect as in
: nirvana. Perhaps you meant suffering when you mentioned 苦. Suffering is
: from un-investigated thoughts that are not in accordance with the reality.
: Salvation is not from outside. Only oneself can liberate oneself.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 44 With whole hearted attention just look at the process, watch the process
more closely, and understand it more thoroughly.
Do not ask any questions, just willingly watch it.
that
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: How to investigate one's thoughts?
: Ask "is it true?" whenever a thought comes up. See Byron Katie's The Work.
: It does not matter it's true or not, but give it a listen, and master all
: your emotions to react to each thought and its turn-around thoughts. In that
: way, the emotions are released and more clarity is gained. This is a very
: effective approach.
: Others can share their experiences and guidance on certain procedures, but
: it's up to oneself to determine whether he is willing to change.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 45 There are only physical and mental processes happening.
Love is a kind of wholesome 心法.
in
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Yes. Also, I'd like to know, in your opinion, what other parts are there in
: us besides love.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 46 Buddha was a 地球人 before he died.
haha
are just discovering the rules. Their models are for ever adjusting to be
as consistent to the Universe as possible.
a link on 天人? Thanks a lot in advance!
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Eh, physicists are not the ones who define the rules of the Universe, they are just discovering the rules. Their models are for ever adjusting to be as consistent to the Universe as possible.
: As you can tell, I don't read 佛经, or at least not yet. Could you find me a link on 天人? Thanks a lot in advance!
: p.s. you don't think Buddha and some seasoned Buddhists as 地球人 ah. :-)
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 47 恐惧 is quite different with 苦.
You invented such a lot weird words in your explanation, can you use the
standard precise definitions in Buddhism?
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
: 其实人的恐惧，或者苦，都是因为自心和现象粘连得太密切了，
: 任何现象的变化都能引起内心巨大的波浪，导致恐惧。
: 而异象带来的冲击可能更大一点。所以容易扰人清净。
: 如果心能面对任何现象而平静不陷入恐惧，其实就破除了苦了。
: 佛教说的不要“着相”，就是这个原因。
: 而不着相是需要修才能做到的。因为“着相”有各种各样的变化形式。
: 所以我觉得，所谓内道外道，要看能否让人心破除对现象的迷惑从而得到真正的安宁。
: 有些道如果让人越修，心越迷惑于现象，当然是邪道。
: 另一些人，修来修去，提起神通就是洪水猛兽，那也是变相地迷信而已。
: 因为不懂，而迷，所以要极力回避其真实性，千万不敢谈。这是不上道。
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 48 I think that the way you describe is an end result, rather than an approach
that is easily implementable.
What I've described is a very effective approach to learn how to observe the
thoughts.
Do ask yourself whether the thoughts are true, at the beginning, and observe
your emotional states when thinking that thought and its turn-around
thoughts.
Once this process becomes native in your mental process, to resolve a
thought right at the moment when it arises, then the separation from ego and
the observation of the thoughts is effortless.
Here's how to do The Work:
http://thework.com/thework.php
Here are some videos to show how it's done:
http://www.thework.com/watch.php
more closely, and understand it more thoroughly.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: With whole hearted attention just look at the process, watch the process
: more closely, and understand it more thoroughly.
: Do not ask any questions, just willingly watch it.
:
: that
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 49
approach
the
observe
你这个大概像禅宗里的疑情。。：） I tends to ask are these thought really
mine, or I belong to these thoughts?
and
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I think that the way you describe is an end result, rather than an approach
: that is easily implementable.
: What I've described is a very effective approach to learn how to observe the
: thoughts.
: Do ask yourself whether the thoughts are true, at the beginning, and observe
: your emotional states when thinking that thought and its turn-around
: thoughts.
: Once this process becomes native in your mental process, to resolve a
: thought right at the moment when it arises, then the separation from ego and
: the observation of the thoughts is effortless.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 50 I don't know exactly what those terms that you mentioned mean. Just based on
my understanding of their face meanings, your post remind me of that book "
The biology of belief".
The Human Genome Project used to take many years and many resources, as
people then believed that the genes are what determine the characteristics
of human beings and other animals.
However, the result turns out to be astonishing as the differences in genes
between the human and other animals, or healthy people and disease-stricken
people, are minimal. There is some difference, but their influences are no
more than 5%, or even less.
====================================================================
So what are genes?
They are the blue prints, but not the reasons things evolve. They are not
the immediate life-or-death factor either.
A cell without a nucleolus, where the genes are, can still live for some
time. It's only when other parts of the cell grow old and they need to
rebuild it but they can't find the genes to know how to build the new parts,
then the cell dies.
====================================================================
So what is the reason cells respond or grow in certain way?
The perceptions, from our internal and external environments, and our
unconscious perceptions.
====================================================================
The seed is the root of anything that comes into existence. Other influences
can help or hinder its growth.
Our positive thinking is also a seed that can manifest its influence on our
lives and what we attract. Before it grows strong enough though, it can also
be easily sabotaged. We can try to protect it and replant this seed.
【在 w*********r 的大作中提到】
: 可是
: 唯识
: 里面的谈到的识的种子，
: 我觉得就是类似基因片段。
: 基因决定了一个具体功能的实现，
: 而一个种子定义了一段因果关系。
: 而共业可以是人类识别功能中共享的对一些因果关系的认定。
: 你说什么都是幻， 没有信息量呀。
| | | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 51 I see. Interesting. Thanks for letting me know.
Is this link somehow truthful to what you meant?
http://read.dangdang.com/content_2194745?ref=read-2-Dbook_id=12
Thoughts arise in our heads, but they are not necessarily true. Most often
than not, the turn-around thoughts are as true as, or even truer, than the
original thoughts.
After inquiring our thoughts in this way, the emotions (they are associated
with lots of energy) are greatly released, and we are set free.
Once we are familiar with this procedure, it is no longer a conscious labor,
but an intuitive aid to help one see things with clarity.
mine, or I belong to these thoughts?
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
:
: approach
: the
: observe
: 你这个大概像禅宗里的疑情。。：） I tends to ask are these thought really
: mine, or I belong to these thoughts?
: and
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 52 原来还真没想过去查字典，因为对于“见解”这个词的含义的真实见解，
是我自己发现的。因为修到了一定地步，我突然了解到，
有些佛经上的描述，必须“真正见到，才能了解”，这叫有见解；
否则只能是“不见无解”的。
因为人们从来没见过，根本不知道它说什么，谈何了解。
今天查字典，才知道，有些词，发明的时候，古人大概也是有体会的，
不是胡乱串用。
---------------------------------------------------------
看“汉典”：
http://www.zdic.net/cd/ci/11/ZdicE7Zdic90Zdic86311842.htm
◎ 见解 jiànjiě
[opinion;conception;idea;view;viewpoint] 看法;评价
◎ 理解 lǐjiě
[understand;comprehend; apprehend; follow; grasp; perceive] 据理了解
----------------------------------------------------
这里，见解就带有view的含义，而理解，就带有follow的含义。
Are you follow me?
意思是“你是否知道我在说什么”，
而不一定指“你是否同意我说的”。
所以“理解”不同于“见解”。
理解因为缺乏亲见，所以只能算是大概意会，领会。
这就是为什么要理行并重的原因。
没有真修-实行，把理解当见解，结果肯定是未证言证。
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Check Chinese dictionary, there are clear definitions of
: '理解' and '见解'.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 53 Yeah, thanks for the inforamtion!
What I was talking about is the right attitude and right view in Buddhism,
which is implementable. And I think it is the best way.
approach
the
observe
and
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I think that the way you describe is an end result, rather than an approach
: that is easily implementable.
: What I've described is a very effective approach to learn how to observe the
: thoughts.
: Do ask yourself whether the thoughts are true, at the beginning, and observe
: your emotional states when thinking that thought and its turn-around
: thoughts.
: Once this process becomes native in your mental process, to resolve a
: thought right at the moment when it arises, then the separation from ego and
: the observation of the thoughts is effortless.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 54 Only genome data can not explain a lot of things.
There are quite a lot modifications in genomes, and on other levels, e.g.
RNA,protein and etc. Even more individual differences on anatomical,
histological and physiological levels.
on
"
genes
stricken
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I don't know exactly what those terms that you mentioned mean. Just based on
: my understanding of their face meanings, your post remind me of that book "
: The biology of belief".
: The Human Genome Project used to take many years and many resources, as
: people then believed that the genes are what determine the characteristics
: of human beings and other animals.
: However, the result turns out to be astonishing as the differences in genes
: between the human and other animals, or healthy people and disease-stricken
: people, are minimal. There is some difference, but their influences are no
: more than 5%, or even less.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 55 Yes, if it works for you, then it's good. I am curious how you find it easy
to implement. I'd like to know more on how you do it.
I am not a Buddhist, nor intended to be a strict one. I am sharing what
works for me to be peaceful, and perhaps somebody else may find it useful. I
don't think that there's just one single approach. Whatever works for each
individual is a good one.
which is not uneasily implementable. And I think it is the best way.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Yeah, thanks for the inforamtion!
: What I was talking about is the right attitude and right view in Buddhism,
: which is implementable. And I think it is the best way.
:
: approach
: the
: observe
: and
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 56 Could you define what 'true thoughts' are?
:p
associated
labor,
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I see. Interesting. Thanks for letting me know.
: Is this link somehow truthful to what you meant?
: http://read.dangdang.com/content_2194745?ref=read-2-Dbook_id=12
: Thoughts arise in our heads, but they are not necessarily true. Most often
: than not, the turn-around thoughts are as true as, or even truer, than the
: original thoughts.
: After inquiring our thoughts in this way, the emotions (they are associated
: with lots of energy) are greatly released, and we are set free.
: Once we are familiar with this procedure, it is no longer a conscious labor,
: but an intuitive aid to help one see things with clarity.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 57 "true" as in accordance with the reality.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Could you define what 'true thoughts' are?
: :p
:
: associated
: labor,
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 58 There must be some different ways which work for different people, as long
as it is effective. I was just trying to say my understanding of how to do
in Buddhism, which I totally accept and believe is the ultimate way to stop
suffering. What we gain from meditation is applicable in our daily life, and
that is my way to implement it now and in the future.
:-)
easy
I
each
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Yes, if it works for you, then it's good. I am curious how you find it easy
: to implement. I'd like to know more on how you do it.
: I am not a Buddhist, nor intended to be a strict one. I am sharing what
: works for me to be peaceful, and perhaps somebody else may find it useful. I
: don't think that there's just one single approach. Whatever works for each
: individual is a good one.
:
: which is not uneasily implementable. And I think it is the best way.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 59 so how to judge whether it is in accordance with the reality and what the
reality is? Are here any standards to refer?
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: "true" as in accordance with the reality.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 60 This is an example that the thoughts can be not true.
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Wisdom/31529491_0.html
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: "true" as in accordance with the reality.
| | | J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 61 My understanding the 'true' is relative. Do you think there is absolute'true
'?
I do not think so.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: This is an example that the thoughts can be not true.
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Wisdom/31529491_0.html
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 62 When each thought arises, people instantly feel in certain way, and an un-
inquisitive mind may believe it as true.
Each person has an usual thought pattern due to childhood or other
experiences.
Until those thoughts are inquired, and the person starts to see the
falsehood of the thoughts, the person may never gain that clarity that
thoughts may not be true and we can choose our thoughts.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: This is an example that the thoughts can be not true.
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Wisdom/31529491_0.html
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 63 There is no absolute 'clarity'.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: When each thought arises, people instantly feel in certain way, and an un-
: inquisitive mind may believe it as true.
: Each person has an usual thought pattern due to childhood or other
: experiences.
: Until those thoughts are inquired, and the person starts to see the
: falsehood of the thoughts, the person may never gain that clarity that
: thoughts may not be true and we can choose our thoughts.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 64 I like meditation, although I don't do much.
Thoughts rise in meditation, as well. The denial of the rising of the
thoughts or a goal to suppress the thoughts often don't go too far. If the
state of purely observing is obtained, that's good. Or else, there's also
that need to release any goal of meditation as well.
The Work by Byron Katie is not something we do during meditation, but
something we do with enough efforts to fill out the worksheet and feel the
feelings fully.
as it is effective. I was just trying to say my understanding of how to do
in Buddhism, which I totally accept and believe is the ultimate way to stop
suffering. What we gain from meditation is applicable in our daily life, and
that is my way to implement it now and in the future.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: There must be some different ways which work for different people, as long
: as it is effective. I was just trying to say my understanding of how to do
: in Buddhism, which I totally accept and believe is the ultimate way to stop
: suffering. What we gain from meditation is applicable in our daily life, and
: that is my way to implement it now and in the future.
: :-)
:
: easy
: I
: each
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 65 It is not absolute.
It is just a way for people to see all sides of a story. With that clarity,
compassion, understanding, and love feeling are all natural.
true
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: My understanding the 'true' is relative. Do you think there is absolute'true
: '?
: I do not think so.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 66 I don't imply absolute anything.
I mentioned that the turn-around thoughts are as true as, or even truer,
than the original thoughts.
An un-inquisitive mind has certain habits of thought patterns due to
experiences, and that thought pattern can be changed.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: There is no absolute 'clarity'.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 67 How to inquire our mind in a right way is the key.
The patterns of our habits in thinking should be changed in a right
direction, how to do this?
My question again, standards to refer?
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I don't imply absolute anything.
: I mentioned that the turn-around thoughts are as true as, or even truer,
: than the original thoughts.
: An un-inquisitive mind has certain habits of thought patterns due to
: experiences, and that thought pattern can be changed.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 68 Compassion, understanding and love feelings can arise somehow.
I do not think we can see all sides of a story, and we only can see the
sides we can see.
,
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It is not absolute.
: It is just a way for people to see all sides of a story. With that clarity,
: compassion, understanding, and love feeling are all natural.
:
: true
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 69 No, you misunderstood meditation.
In meditation we do not resist any thoughts, we just watch them, which is enough.
The goal of practicing meditation is to reach the state without thinking,
firstly practice concentrating, and next practice watching physical and mental processes
arising and passing away. Still it is the best way in my opinion.
Whenever here is thinking here are defilements, no exception.
do
stop
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I like meditation, although I don't do much.
: Thoughts rise in meditation, as well. The denial of the rising of the
: thoughts or a goal to suppress the thoughts often don't go too far. If the
: state of purely observing is obtained, that's good. Or else, there's also
: that need to release any goal of meditation as well.
: The Work by Byron Katie is not something we do during meditation, but
: something we do with enough efforts to fill out the worksheet and feel the
: feelings fully.
:
: as it is effective. I was just trying to say my understanding of how to do
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 70 Yes, I think that our difference is in what is the right way. I could be
wrong, but I get this feeling that you recite what you read in Buddhism and
you believe that it's the right way, but perhaps you are not there yet, am I
wrong? What I really want to know is how you personally do it, understand
it, feel it, and think about it.
The standard for me is what makes me feel peaceful. Even if there's pain
associated with a peaceful decision, I choose it, as I know that it's the
right one for me, and the pain will dissipate.
When each thought comes up, there's perhaps a multitude of associated
emotions with it. You could give The Work a try, and see how you feel about
the most disturbing thing or person in your life.
Then turn that thought around, using several ways that are mentioned in The
Work, and notice how you feel then.
The thought that makes you feel the most peaceful is the truest thought. You
will perhaps see some other thoughts are also truthful to some extent, but
the hurting thoughts are not true.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: How to inquire our mind in a right way is the key.
: The patterns of our habits in thinking should be changed in a right
: direction, how to do this?
: My question again, standards to refer?
| | | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 71 "we only can see the sides we can see."
This is obvious ah. The issue is that without inquiring the thoughts, people
are limited to their habitual thoughts as if those thoughts alone are true.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Compassion, understanding and love feelings can arise somehow.
: I do not think we can see all sides of a story, and we only can see the
: sides we can see.
:
: ,
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 72 I am more and more peaceful after learning Buddhism.
I am not only reciting what I read in Buddhism, I am saying what I believe.
My opinion is quite clear as what I stated.
:-)
and
I
about
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Yes, I think that our difference is in what is the right way. I could be
: wrong, but I get this feeling that you recite what you read in Buddhism and
: you believe that it's the right way, but perhaps you are not there yet, am I
: wrong? What I really want to know is how you personally do it, understand
: it, feel it, and think about it.
: The standard for me is what makes me feel peaceful. Even if there's pain
: associated with a peaceful decision, I choose it, as I know that it's the
: right one for me, and the pain will dissipate.
: When each thought comes up, there's perhaps a multitude of associated
: emotions with it. You could give The Work a try, and see how you feel about
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 73 "In meditation we do not resist any thoughts"
This is also what I think about meditation ah.
"Whenever here is thinking here are defilements, no exception."
This is what is said in Buddhism, do you feel so in heart?
enough.
mental processes
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: No, you misunderstood meditation.
: In meditation we do not resist any thoughts, we just watch them, which is enough.
: The goal of practicing meditation is to reach the state without thinking,
: firstly practice concentrating, and next practice watching physical and mental processes
: arising and passing away. Still it is the best way in my opinion.
: Whenever here is thinking here are defilements, no exception.
:
: do
: stop
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 74 I have this feeling that you believe Buddhism, and I also get this feeling
that you believe that everything else is not right, and it's enough to
dispute anything else by using some saying from the Buddhism.
The whole point of this post is my trying to find an answer why the order of
the frames (things come and go) in the Quantum scale is there, or perhaps
whether it's there. I really appreciate all your inputs, but I am still not
following your explanation to that.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: I am more and more peaceful after learning Buddhism.
: I am not only reciting what I read in Buddhism, I am saying what I believe.
: My opinion is quite clear as what I stated.
: :-)
:
: and
: I
: about
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 75 So there is limitation to see all the sides, I think you agree.
This is effective to some extent I have no doubt, what I am saying is the
way in Buddhism is the best.
:p
Anyway I am not trying to persuade you that I am right.
What we get from meditation can make us be much clearer about the relationship
between our experiences and thoughts, and understand better what the relative "true" is.
Buddhism can help us understand whether the concepts in our minds are in
accordance with the reality, and practically gives us better and better
reference to examine the false thoughts. :p
people
true.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: "we only can see the sides we can see."
: This is obvious ah. The issue is that without inquiring the thoughts, people
: are limited to their habitual thoughts as if those thoughts alone are true.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 76 Sorry I did not explain that.:p
And I do not think I am capable in explaining that.
of
not
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I have this feeling that you believe Buddhism, and I also get this feeling
: that you believe that everything else is not right, and it's enough to
: dispute anything else by using some saying from the Buddhism.
: The whole point of this post is my trying to find an answer why the order of
: the frames (things come and go) in the Quantum scale is there, or perhaps
: whether it's there. I really appreciate all your inputs, but I am still not
: following your explanation to that.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 77 Dear Jean:
I feel that we are restating the same things we both agree.
There are limitations to thoughts, and I am expanding the thoughts to check that the habitual thoughts may not be true, and we can start to see that there are truer thoughts.
Meditation is also very effective for gaining the clarity and wisdom, which I have no objection whatsoever, nor had I implied any objection anywhere.
My question is why you think that The Work is not right, and whether you're willing to give it a try to know what it is before you comment on it.
I also want to know how you would explain the order of the frames using your own words and understanding, but not the words from Buddhism books. Even if your wording might not be as perfect as you wanted it to be, to be consistent with the Buddhism books, that would help me to understand this subject much better. Thanks!
relationship
is.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: So there is limitation to see all the sides, I think you agree.
: This is effective to some extent I have no doubt, what I am saying is the
: way in Buddhism is the best.
: :p
: Anyway I am not trying to persuade you that I am right.
: What we get from meditation can make us be much clearer about the relationship
: between our experiences and thoughts, and understand better what the relative "true" is.
: Buddhism can help us understand whether the concepts in our minds are in
: accordance with the reality, and practically gives us better and better
: reference to examine the false thoughts. :p
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 78 Okay. I don't need a perfect answer, though. Any opinions of yours on this
topic would help.
Of course, if you don't want to talk about this question now, or you may
want to talk about it when you are ready, I will always be willing to listen.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Sorry I did not explain that.:p
: And I do not think I am capable in explaining that.
:
: of
: not
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 79 I never said I do not think THE WORK is right. Personally I choose the way
to practice which
I think is the best.
I am expressing my understanding from Buddhism, not just reciting the words
from Buddhism.
I read different Buddhism books, but I only express the ideas I think best.
:-)
check that the habitual thoughts may not be true, and we can start to see
that there are truer thoughts.
which I have no objection whatsoever, nor had I implied any objection
anywhere.
re willing to give it a try to know what it is before you comment on it.
your own words and understanding, but not the words from Buddhism books.
Even if your wording might not be as perfect as you wanted it to be, to be
consistent with the Buddhism books, that would help me to understand this
subject much better. Thanks!
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Dear Jean:
: I feel that we are restating the same things we both agree.
: There are limitations to thoughts, and I am expanding the thoughts to check that the habitual thoughts may not be true, and we can start to see that there are truer thoughts.
: Meditation is also very effective for gaining the clarity and wisdom, which I have no objection whatsoever, nor had I implied any objection anywhere.
: My question is why you think that The Work is not right, and whether you're willing to give it a try to know what it is before you comment on it.
: I also want to know how you would explain the order of the frames using your own words and understanding, but not the words from Buddhism books. Even if your wording might not be as perfect as you wanted it to be, to be consistent with the Buddhism books, that would help me to understand this subject much better. Thanks!
:
: relationship
: is.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 80 But, by saying that the Buddhism is the best, you have already expressed
that others are not as good.
Why do you think that The Work is not as good? Or why is Buddhism the best,
in your opinions, regarding how to handle the thoughts?
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: I never said I do not think THE WORK is right. Personally I choose the way
: to practice which
: I think is the best.
: I am expressing my understanding from Buddhism, not just reciting the words
: from Buddhism.
: I read different Buddhism books, but I only express the ideas I think best.
: :-)
:
: check that the habitual thoughts may not be true, and we can start to see
: that there are truer thoughts.
| | | J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 81 Sorry, if you do not think I am right, I can accept.
I was just stating my opinion, no offense anyway.:p
I judge which idea is best on my own experiences and knowledge background,
which is same as you.
,
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: But, by saying that the Buddhism is the best, you have already expressed
: that others are not as good.
: Why do you think that The Work is not as good? Or why is Buddhism the best,
: in your opinions, regarding how to handle the thoughts?
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 82 And additionally I must mention, the "Buddhism" here is the "Buddhism" I
understand.
I may change or adjust my understanding with time going, which is assertive.
ha
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Sorry, if you do not think I am right, I can accept.
: I was just stating my opinion, no offense anyway.:p
: I judge which idea is best on my own experiences and knowledge background,
: which is same as you.
:
: ,
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 83 If you'd like to share, I am more interested to know why you think so rather
than what you think, since you have indeed expressed yourself very clearly.
How did you come up with this judgement that Buddhism was the best? Was
there any story on how you were attracted to it, or how it changed your life
, etc?
To be fair, I will also share my story. For myself, I came upon The Work,
quite randomly, but I found it very helpful to help me not to identify my
thoughts and emotions as myself, and it helped me to gain peace and joy, so
I wanted to share it here. I am not claiming it as the best or the only way,
I think of it as one effective approach. Whether others find it useful or
not is their business, and both are okay.
which is same as you.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Sorry, if you do not think I am right, I can accept.
: I was just stating my opinion, no offense anyway.:p
: I judge which idea is best on my own experiences and knowledge background,
: which is same as you.
:
: ,
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 84 Thanks Jiejie!
I am trying to write my stories about how Buddhism is changing my life in a
better way, and I can update you personally instead of posting here.
Anyway I appreciate the discussion here, which is quite meaningful for me.
:-)
rather
clearly.
life
so
way,
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: If you'd like to share, I am more interested to know why you think so rather
: than what you think, since you have indeed expressed yourself very clearly.
: How did you come up with this judgement that Buddhism was the best? Was
: there any story on how you were attracted to it, or how it changed your life
: , etc?
: To be fair, I will also share my story. For myself, I came upon The Work,
: quite randomly, but I found it very helpful to help me not to identify my
: thoughts and emotions as myself, and it helped me to gain peace and joy, so
: I wanted to share it here. I am not claiming it as the best or the only way,
: I think of it as one effective approach. Whether others find it useful or
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 85 Sure. I am looking forward to it! :-)
a better way, and I can update you personally instead of posting here.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Thanks Jiejie!
: I am trying to write my stories about how Buddhism is changing my life in a
: better way, and I can update you personally instead of posting here.
: Anyway I appreciate the discussion here, which is quite meaningful for me.
: :-)
:
: rather
: clearly.
: life
: so
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 86 不是很清楚你的确切意思，
不过如果是在区分the action of thinking 和the content of thinking,
还是有益的。
反正辨别力的精细化总是好的。
enough.
mental processes
the
also
the
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: No, you misunderstood meditation.
: In meditation we do not resist any thoughts, we just watch them, which is enough.
: The goal of practicing meditation is to reach the state without thinking,
: firstly practice concentrating, and next practice watching physical and mental processes
: arising and passing away. Still it is the best way in my opinion.
: Whenever here is thinking here are defilements, no exception.
:
: do
: stop
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 87 I was describing the state of nibbana.
There is no thinking in nibbana, and whenever here is thinking our mind
is divided.
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
: 不是很清楚你的确切意思，
: 不过如果是在区分the action of thinking 和the content of thinking,
: 还是有益的。
: 反正辨别力的精细化总是好的。
:
: enough.
: mental processes
: the
: also
: the
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 88 知道你的意思了。
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: I was describing the state of nibbana.
: There is no thinking in nibbana, and whenever here is thinking our mind
: is divided.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 89 刚才想起来得
你回的the action of thinking还是the content of thinking
其实只要有thinking，不论是过去，当下还是将来的
就是对概念的interpretation，不是对experience本身pay attention
后者只有在meditation里才可以做到，也只有这样我们才可以真正calm down并且感到
peaceful
【在 f*******8 的大作中提到】
: 知道你的意思了。
| f*******8
发帖数: 3612 | 90 大致同意。
加一点就是pay attention to something 和
know there is something还是以有差别。
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: 刚才想起来得
: 你回的the action of thinking还是the content of thinking
: 其实只要有thinking，不论是过去，当下还是将来的
: 就是对概念的interpretation，不是对experience本身pay attention
: 后者只有在meditation里才可以做到，也只有这样我们才可以真正calm down并且感到
: peaceful
| | | s********h
发帖数: 938 | 91 I have no problem to accept this statement:
这个世界，真正存在的，只有一刹那，短短的一刹那。
版上南传学者都同意这句话。但这句话在我看来违反缘起(或者无常或者苦谛)说。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I read more of runsun's post:
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Wisdom/31523515.html
: and I seem to understand more of what he has said.
: One question remains, especially on this entry of his:
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Wisdom/31524839_0.html
: I have no problem to accept this statement:
: 这个世界，真正存在的，只有一刹那，短短的一刹那。
: However, I don't think that his example using 天上有很多的星星, which may
: have faded before their lights reach us, is enough.
: It is okay that the world refreshes itself at each moment, but why does it
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 92 hehe, I don't know what 南传学者 is exactly. I am not a Buddhist, nor belong
to anything.
I accept this statement as I accept Quantum Mechanics, that the world is
discrete in the smallest scale, and the observation itself affects the thing
being observed. There's a probability distribution on where that discrete
energy or entity locates at each place (of course in the smallest scale).
However, in the large scale, as what we can perceive, the world looks
continuous and the Newtonian theories apply well. Both theories are true and
applicable. One does not negate the other.
I accept that statement, but I don't think that this fact alone (生灭
happens at the smallest scale) is enough. I think that the order of the
discrete frames at each instance of 生灭 is also very important, as that
defines the causality, karma, and whether the lessons are learned or not.
【在 s********h 的大作中提到】
: I have no problem to accept this statement:
: 这个世界，真正存在的，只有一刹那，短短的一刹那。
: 版上南传学者都同意这句话。但这句话在我看来违反缘起(或者无常或者苦谛)说。
| s********h
发帖数: 938 | 93 同意，搞不准就是搞不准。推得准就是搞得准。在科学认识层面，两者不矛盾，而且有
道理，有意义。
但从现象上分析真实存在，在俺看来是一条偏路。最简单的推理是，谁知道什么是最小
？谁知道什么是最大？
在慧学（俺造的词儿，非宗教，非哲学，非玄学，非科学）层面，准与不准都没有关系
，甚至两者矛盾也没有关系。但这又不是和稀泥，又不是混淆是非，只是纯粹的觉知。 |
|
