b********e
发帖数: 470 | 1 看前面各位讨论有感，以前也在此问过同样的问题，受益匪浅，就想回馈本版，和新晋
的同行分享一点经验，希望能有所帮助。纯属个人浅见，让各位版上牛人笑话了。
基本情况： 偏工程，4年PI投了6个NIH grants
1 R01 non-discussed
5 R21, all scored, 3 funded
单纯看payline，R01确实要比R21容易，尤其是NI. 以前和NIH PO请教，也是建议投R01
. 但是这只是一般情况。对我这样交叉领域，不是纯生物出身的，刚开始没有足够数据
来提出一个完整的story。而现在R01就是需要足够的前期数据证明实验的可行性（基本
上就是说你基础试验都快要做完了），所以反而非常难成功。唯一一个R01是在拿到第
一个r21和其他几个小grant后做了一年多，发了几篇文章后，才投的。即便这样，还是
感觉不成体系，没有一个完整的故事，抱着试试水的心态投的 （也有一部分来自系里
的压力）。结果唯一一次没得分。其他的R21都是围绕一个小课题，针对性强，实验数
据也充分，自我感觉都还不错，成功率就高很多。另外感觉就是， 不一定要投很多，
但是要找到非常适合的p... 阅读全帖 |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 2 Okay, let's see if having R21 will negatively impact your chance as a new PI
years none-renewable. You have to turn around to write a R01 right away,
and if you didn't publish several papers during the R21 period, the
reviewers will likely to ding you badly in the review session. The payline
for R21 are significant lower and the chance of getting R21 by itself is low
(just look at the number funded and % for R21 at NIH). Also, if you can
get R21, you grant is good for R01 because we all know |
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p*l
发帖数: 1359 | 3 I know several new PIs got multiple R21s. I don't think NIH is against new
PI applying for R21. But if you have reasonable preliminary data, don't
waste time on R21. R21 is so hard, it isn't an ideal entry point for new PI.
My institute's pay line is even lower. I heard NIH now instructs study
panel to give considerations to new PIs. I don't know how much difference it
will make. |
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v***l
发帖数: 2623 | 4 要具体看你交哪个 institute。 NIAMS的R21现在是不鼓励没有R01的人申请，鼓吹R21
是high impact, high risk。几年前大家都是在申R01前先申R21，因为那时的Key word
是high risk。尤其R21是不鼓励new investigator申的，至少NIAMS的是写在网页上的。
275k
have |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 5 R21s only have scores. If it is 12, then is pretty good. Although, I think
some R21s only fund perfect scores i.e. 10. I'm a consultant on a score of
10 R21...let's hope it get funded, because sometimes a institute can chose
not to fund any R21 unlike R01. |
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s**********e
发帖数: 2888 | 6 问一个更低级的问题：可以R21要求study section?
上次投R21去了一个和我的领域完全不相关的study section，当然结果就很差，虽然
reviewers写了很多很仔细的意见，算是很有帮助。
还是我应该多花时间，把其中一个R21扩展成一个R01投出去？我符合ESI and New
Investigator，这个R21是基于我薄厚刚发的一篇PNAS，薄厚老板说他不做这个方向了
，我和这篇文章的co-first author (哈佛医学院的一个AP,但是他已经有两个R01)于是
计划投一个grant出去。 |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 7 Because R21 is rarely funded in many institutes. If you can get a R21, you
grant is likely to be fundable as a R01. Also, R21 is 2 years without
possibility of renewal. So you literally screw yourself twice if you got
funded a R21.
There are exceptions to this rule such as a very specific RFA from NIH. |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 8 Because R21 is rarely funded in many institutes. If you can get a R21, you
grant is likely to be fundable as a R01. Also, R21 is 2 years without
possibility of renewal. So you literally screw yourself twice if you got
funded a R21.
There are exceptions to this rule such as a very specific RFA from NIH. |
|
A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 9 If you are a new PI, converted to an R01 and you will get more funding and
more years if you got 16% at R21 review (you do know R21 has way lower
payline than R01). Getting R21 for new PI is a curse, IMO, not a good thing
. |
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l****l
发帖数: 42 | 10 Guys, thanks for the discussions. I believe one point for NI to apply R21 is
that it does not need very extensive preliminary data. A novel idea seems
to be more important than solid logistics. Anyway, I agree it is tough since
the payline is so low. The FY10 NCI payline is 15% for both R01 and R21. It
is 20% for R01 for NI. Unfortunately,this does not apply to R21. |
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m*****e
发帖数: 333 | 11 A totally wrong message! Receiving R21 will not change the new investigator
status.
In addition, before you apply R01, make sure you have enough preliminary
data to show the very possible success of the project. R21, on the other
hand, supports bold ideas.
PI
payline
low
after R21. |
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C*S
发帖数: 1658 | 12 NIH website says R21 is exploratory. So is it similar to NSF EAGER? But 275k
for two years is more like NSF regular grants though.
Does R21 submission have a hard deadline or be on a rolling basis?
Are prelim data essential?
Sorry for the ignorance. I know nothing about NIH. I understand I need to
read the NIH website for more info. I am asking questions here just to have
a quick idea about NIH R21.
Thanks! |
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b********e
发帖数: 470 | 13 new investigator, 去年试水NCI， 投了个R21。今天知道impact score得了13分，真
心请问大牛们，这分希望大吗？最近不断被NIH打击，start-up 也花得差不多了，亚历
山大啊。真心希望这个能中，才有米下锅。
查了一下NIH payline 和 percentile，好像NCI的R01 R21都是用的percentile
payline, 只找到2013 的payline是9%， success rate 13.7%。 请教大牛， 2014的
payline是多少？payline和success rate为什么差别这么大？还有NCI R21会考虑New &
Early Stage-Investigators吗？
email里还说The second level of review for these applications will be the
next scheduled meeting of the National Cancer Advisory Board (NCAB), to be
held on June 22nd-24th, 201... 阅读全帖 |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 14 This logic is as stupid as the r21 guideline on preliminary data. Go ask a
PO about how many R21s are funded without preliminary data. Also, if you
ask PO what's the score you will likely get if it is an R01, the answer most
likely to be lower due to a simple fact. The R01 NI/ESI proposals are
separately reviewed from established investigators. R21 there is no
separate review process. As a competitor I would say if people like to
commit suicide; let them. |
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t********9
发帖数: 536 | 15 胖老师， 这是我在网页上看到的。Please note that the R21 funds novel
scientific ideas, model systems, tools,
agents, targets, and technologies that have the potential to substantially
advance biomedical research. R21s are not intended for new investigators,
and there is no evidence that they provide a path to an independent research
career.
还有，想知道为什么申请R21是很傻的呀？
作为新手，最好申请什么Grant？ |
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t********9
发帖数: 536 | 16 胖老师， 这是我在网页上看到的。Please note that the R21 funds novel
scientific ideas, model systems, tools,
agents, targets, and technologies that have the potential to substantially
advance biomedical research. R21s are not intended for new investigators,
and there is no evidence that they provide a path to an independent research
career.
还有，想知道为什么申请R21是很傻的呀？
作为新手，最好申请什么Grant？ |
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b********e
发帖数: 470 | 17 我以前也多次问同样的问题。不是不可以，是投入产出比低很多。据说R21很多时候给
大lab拿来开拓新领域用的。我想投R01,可自觉没那么多prelim data，所以一直投R21,
本来我们就是做技术的，没什么吸引人的生物问题。结果每次被据后联系PM，也是推
荐我投R01,说NI中的几率更高。今年终于不知道哪里冒青烟中了个R21。不过如楼上一
位所说，试验基本做的差不多了。我的prelim data是两片文章的精华。所以所谓的
prelim data不重要，我觉得那是对大牛来说的。
？ |
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f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 18 不同的field不一样的，不同的project也不一样，没那么绝对。 即使是新PI,如果有一
个好的idea for a R21 project, just go for it. 我做PI拿过3个R21, 只有一个R21
proposal有一点点
preliminary data. |
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o********e
发帖数: 609 | 19 R21和R01侧重不一样。R21重视innovation,对risk tolerance高，对preliminary data
要求低一点，对investigator要求也要低一点。一个R01fundable project未必会被R21
funded, 反之亦然。 |
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w********a
发帖数: 324 | 20 如题。一个idea，想提交R21，因为毕竟钱稍微多点，当然相比R03难度也更大。所以不
知道可不可以同时提交R03和R21？问题是如果idea类似的话，可能proposal会落到同一
个PM手里。这样的话，是不是会造成不好的影响？
另外，可不可以这样：先提交R21，如果被拒但是Review comments还不错的话，可不可
以跟PM磨一磨，转成R03来支持？
有经验的说说！多谢！ |
|
F*****8
发帖数: 243 | 21 I am a research faculty right now，no difference from postdoc but eliglible
for R21 grant application. 你是说， R21必须是我现在的PI申请， 我只能作为 co-
PI? 如果我现在的 PI同意， 我不能单独申请 R21？ 谢谢。
up
Co- |
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l****l
发帖数: 42 | 22 Do you mean to have a R21 will negatively impact the chance for future R01
for a new PI? Could you elaborate in a bit more detail?
I have two R21 pending in NCI and one of them looks promising.
thing |
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f*******7
发帖数: 1019 | 23 R21 doesn't affect NI/ESI status.
new PI
away,
payline
low
can
after R21. |
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i*********r
发帖数: 28 | 24 刚知道分数 NIH/NEI R21, priority score 23, NEI 不给percentile, 也没有明确的
payline, 不知道有多大的可能, 哪位有NEI R21的经验 给点信息, 谢谢. |
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L*******e
发帖数: 2540 | 25 同无奈。
R01一审30，二审24，一个新评审竟然给Significance评了5分。我们打算再重新交。
不是说交R01会照顾新PI么，所以一般提交R21的新PI都被建议交R01。
New investigators and early stage investigators are not given the same
special considerations for R21 applications as with R01 applications. |
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c******6
发帖数: 928 | 26 去年10月递的R21。下个星期就要开board meeting了，但还没有收到任何信息。有一位
同事也是去年10月递的R21。他的board meeting在这个周五开。他两周前就已收到
EMAIL通知他board meeting时间了。
我的proposal是否有些不妙？有可能streamline不被board meeting讨论吗？ |
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p*l
发帖数: 1359 | 27 如果你是做正统生物医学的，集中精力做试验，准备R01，如果有另外的新想法，
也可以试一下R21。如果你是其他专业背景，想往生物做交叉的，可以把重点放
在R21上，背景攒够了才有可能拿R01。 |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 28 Sure why not. However, are you a new investigator? You should only apply
for R21 when it is a RFA. Also, you better make sure that they are
completely different story. If they are similar and go to the same review
section, you may get comments like "the investigator should combine two R21
into an R01 etc." Meanwhile, you could also piss off the PO especially on
the review side when there is a flood of applications with the new NIH
policy. |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 29 Submitting R01 or R21, you can suggest study sections. However, the NIH
does not have to listen to you. Once assigned, if you don't like it, you
can ask for a switch, but again, NIH does not have to listen to your
suggestion. I do know people got the study section they want from a switch,
but I don't know it helped.
Also, you don't have to believe me if you want. If your R21 ever got funded
, it means that it is fund-able at a R01 level. So you literally just
voluntarily cut yourself 3 year... 阅读全帖 |
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r*********e
发帖数: 27 | 30 申请了一个NIAID的R21 RFA，分数是33. NIAID R21 的 Payline 是 23. 但考虑是RFA
， 不知道还有没有希望了？
另外，给PO发email想约个时间讨论一下结果，但一直没有回我。 是不是应该继续发
email骚扰啊？ |
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s********x
发帖数: 472 | 31 NIMH 的R21， 不知道有没有前辈有最近几年R21的申请经验。不知道还有没有可能被
fund。
如果不行resubmit有可能么？
多谢！ |
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a*******a
发帖数: 49 | 32 从这个链接看到
NICHD ($1.28B): FY15: pending [FY13 paylines (FY14 never posted): 9th/13th
percentile for established/new-ESI investigators; 7th percentile for R03s &
R21s;
那R21的new investigator 13 percentile 有没有可能被fund呢？还是说按照7th
percentile cutoff，完全没有希望了呢？
现在还能做些什么提高下被fund的可能性么？
求指点，非常感谢！ |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 33 That's why I keep telling new investigators not to apply for R21. Go for
R01. Even NIH POs are telling NI/ESI not to apply for R21, but I guess
people don't listen.
& |
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a*******a
发帖数: 49 | 34 这个idea 确实是一个exploratory high novelty的课题，与R21主题贴切， 所以就写
成了R21了。。。
写成R01感觉似乎分量有点不够 |
|
s******y
发帖数: 28562 | 35 没说不可以，而是不推荐。
对于新手，申请R21是很傻的行为。唯一的例外就是如果你以前不是做生物医学而是转
行过来的，而是先弄一个这样的来证明你能搞生物医学。对于大部分生物医学出身的人
，作为新人，最好不要申请R21。这个是NIH 各部门的PO都这么说的。 |
|
r****9
发帖数: 147 | 36 跟帖问一下
我知道很多PO都说R21对新PI来说不划算
MONEY上跟时间上都是
不过有没有听说过拿了R21对接下来拿R01是有帮助还是没帮助
还是帮倒忙的统计啊? |
|
s******y
发帖数: 28562 | 37 没说不可以，而是不推荐。
对于新手，申请R21是很傻的行为。唯一的例外就是如果你以前不是做生物医学而是转
行过来的，而是先弄一个这样的来证明你能搞生物医学。对于大部分生物医学出身的人
，作为新人，最好不要申请R21。这个是NIH 各部门的PO都这么说的。 |
|
r****9
发帖数: 147 | 38 跟帖问一下
我知道很多PO都说R21对新PI来说不划算
MONEY上跟时间上都是
不过有没有听说过拿了R21对接下来拿R01是有帮助还是没帮助
还是帮倒忙的统计啊? |
|
m*p
发帖数: 226 | 39 新的pi辛辛苦苦准备的data去申请r21是很可惜的。 申请r01 和r21难道差不多，所以
新的pi还是应该申请r01吧。
如果新的pi拿到一个r01后， 申请其他的什么grant会合适啊？谢谢！ |
|
p*l
发帖数: 1359 | 40 纯工程背景的人，不做个nih r21直接拿r01的几率很小的。没有nih认可的track
record是拿不到r01的
R21, |
|
k********e
发帖数: 29 | 41 菜鸟啊一把年纪instructor，手上无funding不好申请天牛track AP。申请K由于博后没
换老板还在phd lab所以困难重重。于是老板为了帮忙给升了instructor。打算申请R03
或者R21.
手上一project比较promising，有牛合作实验室。老板也比较支持，跟他之间的
funding不冲突。proposal质量可以拼一下，可是自己background太弱。大家给分析分
析，我这个情况，申请R21有戏吗？ |
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c********n
发帖数: 1065 | 42 没搞过nih 话说r21是什么类别啊
[在 woshiboshi (woshiboshi) 的大作中提到：]
：我不是faculty，只是一个Research scientist，也就是传说中得千老。拜老板支持，
：去年写了个R21，co-pi，分数刚刚出来，impact score 23 分。不知道怎么样？老板
说这个分数不错，可以拿到fund。
：........... |
|
h*****w
发帖数: 8561 | 43 R21的最大优势是不用弄一个TEAM,我这种身处烂校的,弄一个好的TEAM是多么困难啊,求
爷爷告奶奶的找名校教授,人家根本不鸟你,最多给你个SUPPORT LETTER,根本不算数的.
..
去年R01悲剧最大原因就是被认定没有足够强的RESEARCH TEAM(虽然我弄了10封SUPPORT
LETTER,连院士都给写了),所以今年改投R21了. |
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A******y
发帖数: 2041 | 44 R21 is harder to get than R01 unless it is RFA. The rule is that if you got
an R21 and it could be an R01, you just miss 3 year of funding. Of course,
you don't have to believe in me. |
|
t********9
发帖数: 536 | 45 I got a response back from my PO. He said:
Good afternoon Dr. XXX. Our R21 payline is set at 30, so an R21 that
received a priority score of 20 would be funded.
Cheers~ |
|
r***a
发帖数: 7 | 46 有一个小课题过去一年有了不少进展，想试一试NCI的R21，刚才查了一下有关的PA，发
现过去申请个的Omnibus R21没有2016。还是改成别的了？有熟悉的吗？ |
|
O*****t
发帖数: 533 | 47 这个不算严格意义上的parent R21吧，更像个RFA. 现在这是大势所趋了，各个
institute都开始撤R21了，R01也越来越短。 |
|
s******y
发帖数: 28562 | 48 其实R21算是一个失败的机制，说是不需要原始数据，但是没有原始数据根本就拿不到
钱。最后的结果就是这个资金的数据要求不比R01低，但是钱都不到一半。不过形成这
个局面的原因是因为资金竞争太激烈了，所以大家都拼命的削价出卖自己做的东西。在
这个前提下去撤销R21，性质就如同因为脚痛所以就把脚给砍了，其实根本就没有真正
解决问题，而是把问题推到其他机制去。 |
|
p*******7
发帖数: 322 | 49 如果两个proposals里有significant overlap，而且你都不是太有把握，我建议你先申
请MPI(你是contact PI吗？），这样做缺点是你没有ESI的benefit，但优点是如果中了
，it's a much bigger grant which will give you five-year support (and thus
stability)。如果不中，你也可以看看comments和score，再决定下一步该怎么做。
如果先审R21，你就失去了审R01的机会，而且，R21 doesn't really give you a
better chance. |
|
p**********n
发帖数: 1470 | 50 Does R21 recognize NI (i assume it's "new investigator") as well?
In general, does R21 have higher funding rate than R01? |
|
