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History版 - zt 为什么二战时期德国没有直接攻克莫斯科,而去攻打基辅,是否犯了兵家大忌?
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1 (共1页)
h*h
发帖数: 27852
1
为什么二战时期德国没有直接攻克莫斯科,而去攻打基辅,是否犯了兵家大忌?
为什么二战时期德国没有直接攻克莫斯科,而去攻打基辅,是否犯了兵家大忌?这不正
是苏联希望看到的吗?请准确详解,谢谢。
1941年发生在基辅东部的合围战,不仅充满戏剧性,而且实属最大规模合围战之列。说
它充满戏剧性,在很大程度上并不是指其经过复杂多变,而是指其思想准备及其战略影
响;说它规模大,在很大程度上并非就会战范围,而是就其俘虏数量而言。
当基辅会战的设想刚一提出,便围绕其后果展开了争论。会战的倡导者为炮兵上将
约德尔及国防军统帅部参谋部;告诫者和批评者是冯·布劳希奇元帅、陆军总司令部参
谋部以及第3 、第2 装甲集群司令官霍特和古德里安。前者认为,此次作战较易进行,
短期内即可取得预期战果。后者则担心,此次会战将延误攻占莫斯科的时间,因为从10
月份开始的冬季泥泞阶段将耗费许多时间,从而使俄国人赢得足够的时间去加强对该城
的防御。一方将抓获俘虏和歼灭敌人较多兵力看作战争的决定性因素,另一方则把攻占
具有中枢作用(苏联的铁路枢纽!)并拥有众多居民和工业设施的首都视为关键。
希特勒赞同国防军统帅部的计划,于是便导致了这场会战——就其俘虏数量而言,
堪称历史上最大规模的一次会战。然而,结果表明批评者是正确的,由于未能攻下莫斯
科,所以输掉了对苏战局乃至整个战争。基辅会战典型地说明,兵力、空间和时间是如
何决定着战争的实施,重大的作战行动能产生怎样的战略影响。
这本由波德聪-帕拉斯出版社出版的小册子是作者在其原书《基辅会战——历史上
最大规模的合围战》的基础上改写而成。为使这一套丛书在外形上一致,对原书进行了
删节,同时增加了图片。在本社出版的《古德里安画传》中,亲身参加这次会战的司令
官和告诫者古德里安也以其趣味横生的回忆和珍贵的照片,介绍了这次会战的经过及其
准备和所产生的影响。
录入者简评:战略的分歧
基辅会战是德国陆军所赢得的最辉煌的胜利,不过也有许多人,包括古德里安等一
些德军将领在内,却认为这次会战是希特勒最大的败笔:因为会战延误了对莫斯科的总
攻,使德军未能在隆冬降临之前发动对苏联首都的总攻,结果使攻势顿挫在莫斯科城下

现在人们认为要批评希特勒的战略是很容易的,比如说他的对苏战争目标,经济性
的东西要多于政治性的考虑,他所努力追求的,综合起来就是乌克兰的谷仓、顿涅茨的
煤炭和铁矿、高加索的油井——他甚至没有把莫斯科考虑在战争目标之内,不过,他所
设想的却是一次放大了的现代的坎纳会战:由南北两个方向包抄进攻,在获得那些经济
性的战果之后,莫斯科就会象一个熟透了的桃子一样自动掉入他的手中——从战略上来
说,这种设想是非常高超的,他是要在两翼获得决战的机会。但是,由陆军总部所拟定
的“巴巴罗萨作战计划”对此却不以为然,他们认为,苏联的工业和交通条件,以德国
人标准来看,依然是十分原始的,排除乌拉尔山脉以东,也就是苏联的亚洲部份之后,
欧洲部份的苏联实际上只有一个交通枢纽,那就是莫斯科,一旦攻占了这一地区,苏联
红军将无法向两翼机动其预备兵力,而居于中心地位的德军却可以自由选择南翼或北翼
的敌军予以各个击破,换句话说,陆军总部是要在中线获得决战的机会。
分析一下整个基辅会战以及此前的乌曼会战、斯摩棱斯克会战和其后的维亚兹马会
战,可以认为希特勒的战略是要比陆军总部高明。其所以如此,首先是因为红军的装备
并不亚于德军,他们在机动能力和装甲部队的攻击能力方面也是法国和波兰军队所无法
比拟的,特别是在德国人认为是比较“原始”的地区活动,他们的机动能力甚至要高于
德军;第二个显而易见的原因是,红军的兵力似乎是无穷无尽的,在正式攻打莫斯科之
前,德国陆军在野战中已经歼灭红军超过三百万人,可是在莫斯科城下,他们还是集结
起来将近两百万人进行防御和反攻,而根据德国情报部门所掌握的红军有关的情报,苏
联的陆军实际上已不复存在。这样一来,当兵力较弱的南北两翼的发展不及中央集团军
群迅速时,红军将可以很容易地集结起规模庞大的预备兵力击打中线德军的侧翼,因为
后来的基辅会战所击败的西南方面军,其兵力超过一百万人,如果让如此庞大的兵力攻
击中央集团军群的右翼,那么中线德军就有可能全军覆没。
因此,希特勒的战略并没有错误,他的错误在于后来接受了波克等人的意见,在寒
冬之际贸然攻打莫斯科,事实上,如果德军在维亚兹马会战之后不是继续进攻,而是构
筑一道冬季防线固守的话,以当时红军的兵力来看,要打破德军的优势地位几乎是不可
能的。
由于陆军总部和希特勒存在着战略上的分歧,所以后来的战事就出现了莫名其妙的
矛盾情形,因为希特勒在感觉到某个地方不对头时,他会不通过陆军总部直接向前线指
挥官下达作战命令。所以前线的作战常常不依古格,再加上部分将领的独立行事,陆军
总部终于丧失了对陆军的控制,结果是希特勒确立了自己在军事上的独裁,陆军总部几
乎降格成了一个元首的军事办公室。但是,这一切都没有影响基辅会战的胜利结束——
这是人类历史上最大规模的合围歼灭战
z*******3
发帖数: 13709
2
不应该啊
莫斯科没有想象中那么重要
而且斯大林预判估计就是德军会攻打莫斯科
做足了防御等着德军来呢
德军往下打了苏军一个措手不及,大胜了一把
歼灭敌军有生力量更重要,而不是一城一地的得失
h*h
发帖数: 27852
3
合围莫斯科的过程就可以大量消灭苏军
斯大林做足了防御,所以不会放弃莫斯科,围点打援才成为可能

【在 z*******3 的大作中提到】
: 不应该啊
: 莫斯科没有想象中那么重要
: 而且斯大林预判估计就是德军会攻打莫斯科
: 做足了防御等着德军来呢
: 德军往下打了苏军一个措手不及,大胜了一把
: 歼灭敌军有生力量更重要,而不是一城一地的得失

s**********e
发帖数: 33562
4
呵呵,德军又不是没有想合围莫斯科,问题是根本打不过去。

【在 h*h 的大作中提到】
: 合围莫斯科的过程就可以大量消灭苏军
: 斯大林做足了防御,所以不会放弃莫斯科,围点打援才成为可能

i*****g
发帖数: 11893
5
hsh 是NED的民轮5毛
stoppingtime是邓党的邓轮5毛
这两种人讨论军事,简直是滑天下之大稽,好比妓女在谈清纯
C********w
发帖数: 1724
6
小胡子 是个政治上的矮子。
中国人讲禽贼先禽王,德国当时军事上优势明显,
应当先把最硬的骨头啃下来。拿下莫斯科后,
苏联的人心就散了,军队的战斗力也就差了一大截。

10

【在 h*h 的大作中提到】
: 为什么二战时期德国没有直接攻克莫斯科,而去攻打基辅,是否犯了兵家大忌?
: 为什么二战时期德国没有直接攻克莫斯科,而去攻打基辅,是否犯了兵家大忌?这不正
: 是苏联希望看到的吗?请准确详解,谢谢。
: 1941年发生在基辅东部的合围战,不仅充满戏剧性,而且实属最大规模合围战之列。说
: 它充满戏剧性,在很大程度上并不是指其经过复杂多变,而是指其思想准备及其战略影
: 响;说它规模大,在很大程度上并非就会战范围,而是就其俘虏数量而言。
: 当基辅会战的设想刚一提出,便围绕其后果展开了争论。会战的倡导者为炮兵上将
: 约德尔及国防军统帅部参谋部;告诫者和批评者是冯·布劳希奇元帅、陆军总司令部参
: 谋部以及第3 、第2 装甲集群司令官霍特和古德里安。前者认为,此次作战较易进行,
: 短期内即可取得预期战果。后者则担心,此次会战将延误攻占莫斯科的时间,因为从10

l****n
发帖数: 252
7
那校长占延安, 也没见中共散心
日寇拿下南京北平, 老蒋不还是咬牙挺过来

【在 C********w 的大作中提到】
: 小胡子 是个政治上的矮子。
: 中国人讲禽贼先禽王,德国当时军事上优势明显,
: 应当先把最硬的骨头啃下来。拿下莫斯科后,
: 苏联的人心就散了,军队的战斗力也就差了一大截。
:
: 10

h*h
发帖数: 27852
8
Moscow or Kiev-- How Germany could have won WW2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Pt. #1
The Russian Front was the decisive theatre of WW2. If Germany won everywhere
else, but lost on the Russian Front, then they lost the war. But 80% of the
Wehrmacht was employed fighting the Soviets, so if they lost everywhere
else, but they won on the Russian Front, then depending on when these events
took place the Wehrmacht should have been able to shift forces to redeem
their failures elsewhere, & win the war. Even after the US came in, if
Germany had won on the Russian Front within 6 to 8 months afterward (roughly
the time between the Jap attack on Pearl Harbor & the Torch invasion), then
Germany should have been able to make Europe (& possibly N Africa)
impregnable to invasion.
So how could this have come about? I propose that with just 1 change in
strategy, Germany's victory on the Russian Front was virtually assured--
probably in '42.
On 18 Aug '41 the Army High Command (OKH) presented Hitler with its plan for
the autumn campaign, which designated Moscow as the key objective. On 22
Aug, however, Hitler rejected the OKH plan & decided instead to strip Army
Gp Center (AGC) of both of its 2 panzer armies, sending one to support AGN
vs Leningrad & the other to support AGS vs Kiev. These new dispositions were
in effect by 25 Aug. AGN arguably made no better progress with 2 panzer
armies than it could have with only 1, but AGS won one of the largest
encirclement battles of the war, took the city of Kiev, captured over 450,
000 Soviet troops, & positioned itself for a thrust all the way to the Don
River & the southern city of Rostov, which it captured before the end of the
year (& then had to abandon during the winter).
Taking Gen. Guderian's 2d Panzer Army (2PzA) as an example, between 25 Aug &
the beginning of Oct the 2PzA drove 300 miles to Kiev, 250 miles back to a
position S of Orel & Bryansk, & spent perhaps another 250 miles in tactical
manuvering-- 36 days of exhausting combat for the men, & at least 800 miles
of wear & tear on the vehicles, not counting losses, injuries, & battle
damage. The experience of Gen. Hoth's 3PzA with AGN was similar. These 2
Panzer Armies, worn down as they were, then spearheaded the attack on Moscow
(assisted by Gen. Hoeppner's 4PzA from AGN).
On 25 Aug Moscow was located 200 miles ENE of the German salient at Smolensk
. On 2 Oct Moscow was located 200 miles NNE of Orel & Bryansk, & the
Wehrmacht was in position to begin Operation Typhoon, the campaign against
Moscow. Within days the Wehrmacht captured the 3d, 13th, 19th, 20th, 24th, &
32d Soviet Armies, capturing over 670,000 prisoners & leaving only 90,000
men & 150 tanks available for the defense of Moscow. On 13 Oct, 12 days into
the campaign, 3PzA penetrated within 90 miles of Moscow, having traversed
110 miles from its start-point. The doom of the Soviet Union appeared to
have been sealed.
But on 18 Oct rain began turning the roads into a thick gumbo of mud in
which trucks couldn't move unless they were towed by tanks. Aircraft couldn'
t take off except from paved runways-- but there were almost no paved
runways. A plane could land in the mud only on its belly, or its landing
gear would snag & cause it to crash. On 30 Oct, when the mud grew so thick
even the tanks could hardly move, the offensive was halted on orders from
Hitler. This respite in front of Moscow enabled Stalin to build
fortifications & reinforce the units defending his capital with his Siberian
reserves.
On 15 Nov the ground froze sufficiently to allow the Wehrmacht to resume its
offensive. Three days later Stalin began his first tentative probing
attacks, for the first time using his new T-34 tanks in large formations, &
by the end of the month it was becoming obvious that Russia was in the
beginnings of one of its worst winters on record. Despite all these
disadvantages Wehrmacht troops still fought their way to within artillery
range of the Kremlin by 2 Dec. In blizzard conditions the Battle of Moscow
raged for 3 days before the incredibly severe weather & the withering away
of his troops & equipment caused Hitler to order disengagement.
On 6 Dec Stalin launched his first winter offensive. The Wehrmacht hadn't
prepared any fortifications for the winter, so the Germans suffered heavy
losses while being driven halfway back to their starting positions. Raging
with fury, Hitler purged his army that winter of over 100 senior generals.
Pt #2
During Operation Typhoon the German Wehrmacht enjoyed 16 days of good
weather (2-18 Oct), 12 days of worsening weather (18-30 Oct), followed by 15
more days of impossible weather (31 Oct-14 Nov). This was followed by about
12-14 days of marginal weather (14 thru 26 or 28 Nov, when the ground froze
), followed by 7 to 9 days of worsening weather which by 5 Dec became
impossible. Thus the campaign included a total of 16 days of good weather,
33 days of marginal weather, & 15 days of impossible weather, during which
the Wehrmacht, with exhausted panzer crews fresh from the Kiev & Leningrad
campaigns, fought its way to within artillery range of the Kremlin.
What would have been the situation had Hitler not interfered, & allowed the
OKH plan for the autumn campaign to stand?
Between 25 Aug & 17 Oct there were 53 days of good weather. This favored the
Germans, who needed good weather to make full use of their aircraft,
panzers, & artillery. This is greater than the 49 total days of combined
good & marginal weather encountered in the actual campaign, which argues
strongly, absent other factors, that under the OKH plan the Wehrmacht would
have reached Moscow as early as 16 September-- a mere 24 days into the
campaign.
For the first 12 days progress might have been similar in both scenarios,
since good weather was enjoyed in both. For the next 12 days, however,
Operation Typhoon encountered 4 days of good weather & 8 days of worsening
weather, while in our hypothetical scenario the weather would remain good.
Let us assume that in our hypothetical scenario the pace during this period
would be similar to that achieved in the first 12 days. Since 3PzA
penetrated within 90 miles of Moscow in the first 12 days, having covered
over half the distance from its start-point, it's reasonable to assume,
absent other factors, that the Wehrmacht could have reached Moscow within 24
days. This would leave 29 days of good weather to consolidate these gains &
continue the offensive.
However, these assumptions are "absent other factors." There are 2 other
factors that shorten the time-frame even further.
First is the effect of the Leningrad & Kiev campaigns on the panzers & their
crews. Fresher panzer formations, absent the losses in the Leningrad & Kiev
campaigns, might have arguably made faster progress.
And second, on 14 Sep 1941 Stalin's agent in Japan, Richard Sorge, reported
that the Japanese intended to attack the United States instead of Siberia.
Acting on this information Stalin brought 34 elité divisions of the
Siberian Army, over 1000 tanks, & over 1000 aircraft to defend Moscow. These
forces were in place by mid-November, & represented the main defense that
slowed & ultimately defeated the historical offensive. Had the attack been
launched on 25 Aug instead of 2 Oct, then the Germans would have entered
Moscow on or before 16 Sep-- only 2 days after Sorge's report & long before
the transfer of any Siberian divisions could take place.
There is also 1 other factor that would have increased the impact of the
capture of Moscow. During Operation Typhoon Stalin remained in Moscow
himself, he issued orders that no one was to evacuate, & he threatened to
shoot anyone who tried to leave. Had these orders been in effect during our
hypothetical scenario then the Germans might have captured not only many
senior Soviet government officials & their staffs & files, but also STAVKA,
the Soviet High Command, & its files, & even Stalin himself.
Even absent this particular consideration, the consequences of a German
conquest of Moscow would have been enormous. Moscow was much more than just
the administrative nerve-center of a totalitarian state. It was also the
road & rail hub of European Russia, & one of its largest commercial &
manufacturing complexes. Moscow had long been the seat of Great Russian
chauvinism. If Soviet resistance had continued at all past the fall of
Moscow, then it would have been a resistance infected with gnawing self-
doubts. The Wehrmacht might have been able to continue their campaign--
successfully-- while greatly reducing their forces.
During the autumn campaign AGN should have been stripped of its 4PzA,
because the focus of the campaign was Leningrad, which had been besieged.
AGN was therefore fighting an infantry campaign. 4PzA, as in the historical
Operation Typhoon, should have participated in the advance on Moscow. AGS
should have retained its 1PzA in order to maintain pressure on Soviet forces
defending Kiev.
After the fall of Moscow the Wehrmacht should have dug in to defend the
place, with 4PzA operating N of the city with an infantry Army, 3PzA
operating to the S with an infantry Army, & the city itself heavily defended
by infantry & artillery in fortifications. 2PzA should have been shifted S
of 3PzA to take up positions in preparation for a spring offensive vs Kiev.
The spring '42 campaign should have used 3 PzAs to encircle & reduce Kiev,
driving to the Don & Rostov. By autumn '42 the Wehrmacht should have held
everything from the Volga to the Don.
h*h
发帖数: 27852
9
莫斯科是苏联欧洲部分的交通枢纽和第二大工业中心。斯大林决心坚守莫斯科,但是他
的34个精锐的西伯利亚师在11月才到达莫斯科,如果德国按照计划8月25日进攻莫斯科
,11月以前拿下莫斯科的可能很大。42年德国可以清扫苏联的欧洲部分。然后可以神龟
大法,守住胜利成果。
德军先打基埔,自己损失也很大。

【在 l****n 的大作中提到】
: 那校长占延安, 也没见中共散心
: 日寇拿下南京北平, 老蒋不还是咬牙挺过来

r********9
发帖数: 18394
10
尼玛都是事后猪个亮! 看不出元首哪里有问题了
相关主题
Why the West Rules—For Now 到手了老將們是不是總愛把‘矮帝’ 太祖‘掛在嘴邊
铀矿劳改营展揭露苏联原子弹秘密為什么要劃分56個民族?
现在满族的困境这个算历史吧:Communix 操作系统简史
进入History版参与讨论
y**o
发帖数: 8897
11
你详细讲讲

【在 r********9 的大作中提到】
: 尼玛都是事后猪个亮! 看不出元首哪里有问题了
h*h
发帖数: 27852
12
德国军方力主先打莫斯科的,古德里安亲自飞回去劝说元首

【在 r********9 的大作中提到】
: 尼玛都是事后猪个亮! 看不出元首哪里有问题了
l*b
发帖数: 4369
13
皇帝倒是搞掉了莫斯科
还不一样被北极熊干掉了
那时候的俄国相对法国可比二战的时候苏联相对德国差多了。

【在 C********w 的大作中提到】
: 小胡子 是个政治上的矮子。
: 中国人讲禽贼先禽王,德国当时军事上优势明显,
: 应当先把最硬的骨头啃下来。拿下莫斯科后,
: 苏联的人心就散了,军队的战斗力也就差了一大截。
:
: 10

F**********0
发帖数: 503
14
消灭敌人的有生力量,这在任何情况下都是正确的
错就错在之后的分水岭--莫斯科
强攻的时机已过,打成消耗战就悲剧了
所以最好的策略:
要么直取莫斯科,乌克兰先缓一缓
要么携基辅大捷之威,兵力上的优势,彻底解决南线,而中路保持相持
两边同时发力,必败无疑
s**********e
发帖数: 33562
15
德国人并没有两边发力。

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
: 消灭敌人的有生力量,这在任何情况下都是正确的
: 错就错在之后的分水岭--莫斯科
: 强攻的时机已过,打成消耗战就悲剧了
: 所以最好的策略:
: 要么直取莫斯科,乌克兰先缓一缓
: 要么携基辅大捷之威,兵力上的优势,彻底解决南线,而中路保持相持
: 两边同时发力,必败无疑

F**********0
发帖数: 503
16

主力装甲部队来回抽调,两边都打了。虽然在时间上不重叠,但是持续作战的损耗使之
丧失了精力锐气与能力

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 德国人并没有两边发力。
b*****e
发帖数: 53215
17
没有办法,他就那么点坦克

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
:
: 主力装甲部队来回抽调,两边都打了。虽然在时间上不重叠,但是持续作战的损耗使之
: 丧失了精力锐气与能力

s**********e
发帖数: 33562
18
但是台风的时候,并没同时在南方发力(反倒被铁木辛哥在罗斯托夫发力)

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
:
: 主力装甲部队来回抽调,两边都打了。虽然在时间上不重叠,但是持续作战的损耗使之
: 丧失了精力锐气与能力

F**********0
发帖数: 503
19

所以说,两边都主攻并不好,基辅后不如中路稳守,抽出部队直扑南边,战果可期。
莫斯科方向有装甲部队也不行了,包又包不住,侧翼老有篓子。到了城下还得攻坚,不
适合突击部队

【在 b*****e 的大作中提到】
: 没有办法,他就那么点坦克
b*****e
发帖数: 53215
20
你打到斯大林格勒还不是要攻坚

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
:
: 所以说,两边都主攻并不好,基辅后不如中路稳守,抽出部队直扑南边,战果可期。
: 莫斯科方向有装甲部队也不行了,包又包不住,侧翼老有篓子。到了城下还得攻坚,不
: 适合突击部队

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s**********e
发帖数: 33562
21
南边没啥好打阿。

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
:
: 所以说,两边都主攻并不好,基辅后不如中路稳守,抽出部队直扑南边,战果可期。
: 莫斯科方向有装甲部队也不行了,包又包不住,侧翼老有篓子。到了城下还得攻坚,不
: 适合突击部队

F**********0
发帖数: 503
22

苏联中路兵太多,动不动冒出10几个师的预备队,想打歼灭战是不可能的(中路将领也
牛逼,都是包围圈里跑出来的)。
所以古德里安,霍特都给南线好了,让他们自由攻击扩大战果。
中路苦差事交给步兵,大家挖壕阵地战吧,实在不行退守城市和交通线,那样弓虽不足
,守则有余。等冬天熬过去,在恢复进攻

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 但是台风的时候,并没同时在南方发力(反倒被铁木辛哥在罗斯托夫发力)
F**********0
发帖数: 503
23

有油
拿下高加索说不定土耳其也参战了
至少拿下斯大林格勒问题不大(不用靠杂牌部队充数了)

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 南边没啥好打阿。
s**********e
发帖数: 33562
24
中路没有歼灭战?

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
:
: 有油
: 拿下高加索说不定土耳其也参战了
: 至少拿下斯大林格勒问题不大(不用靠杂牌部队充数了)

F**********0
发帖数: 503
25

斯莫林斯克以后,再无可能,初期的兵力布置和技术兵器优势没了

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 中路没有歼灭战?
b*****e
发帖数: 53215
26
维雅吉马不是灭了一大群么

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
:
: 斯莫林斯克以后,再无可能,初期的兵力布置和技术兵器优势没了

s**********e
发帖数: 33562
27
斯摩棱斯克之后的维亚兹马-布良斯克战役歼灭的苏军貌似比基辅的还多,红军丢掉了
整整6个集团军。

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
:
: 斯莫林斯克以后,再无可能,初期的兵力布置和技术兵器优势没了

F**********0
发帖数: 503
28

记不大清楚了,貌似维亚急吗是之前?

【在 b*****e 的大作中提到】
: 维雅吉马不是灭了一大群么
b*****e
发帖数: 53215
29
斯摩棱斯克之后,为雅吉马是台风的一部分了

【在 F**********0 的大作中提到】
:
: 记不大清楚了,貌似维亚急吗是之前?

F**********0
发帖数: 503
30

是的,这个是分水岭,见好就收可以转入相持了。等到打完莫斯科城防也起来了,和当
初基辅差不多,啃不动啊

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 斯摩棱斯克之后的维亚兹马-布良斯克战役歼灭的苏军貌似比基辅的还多,红军丢掉了
: 整整6个集团军。

1 (共1页)
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