c********t
发帖数: 351 | 1 下面画了张图，
1)IUL是代理给我的通过软件计算出来的，假设年收益率为8.67%。这个8.67%的数据是
过去20年通过IUL方式算出来的平均值。保险的cash value是减掉所有费用后的属于我
的钱。
2）我自己用同样的钱来投资，前三十年每年付了550的保险费用。每年收益仍然是8.67
%，同时交掉了35%的税。
3）total premium是我自己付的钱。
解释一下我所能想到的东西
1) whole life里面有各种隐藏费用--
但是下图IUL里面是cash value，已经刨除了各种费用。
2）IUL的收益没有那么高，在外面投资收益可能更高--
a）8.67%是过去20年平均值算出来的。
b)IUL的floor-cap的方式应该比外面的投资收益高。我记得看过数据说东京指数30年没
有什么变
化，但IUL方式算出来平均年增长为5%左右。SP500过去的十年增长也不高，IUL方式算
出来
的也在6.5%。
3）退休帐号里面的钱也不用交税，所以不应该减除35%税率--
IUL和退休帐号不应该是一个概念。IUL里面的应该是IRA之后额外投资的钱，可以随时
拿出来，放回去。
想来想去，我还是觉得IUL是好东西。我明白前几年我不会赚钱。但是一旦有了这个
工具，我将来的钱可以多余时放入投资，需要时拿出。应该值得我现在走资啊。
因为正在买IUL的过程中，可以随时反悔。请大牛拍醒我吧。谢谢 | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 2 Do a simple comparison you will see why IUL doesn't fit for most middle
class families -
IUL (option 1) vs. Term + Index ETF (option 2)
You can test with any past 30 years actual historical annual return data , I
am positive option 2 will be at least 15%, if not more, better than option
1 - based on after-tax numbers (most people became too excited when they saw
something that could save them tax and forget to ask: could my cost
outweigh my savings?)
Also, IUL's index doesn't account for dividend payout, which you already
lose around 2% per year (based on historical average).
PM me if you need help to set up an easy spreadsheet for you to run. | c********t
发帖数: 351 | 3 谢谢你的回复。
你认为IUL的问题在于收益太低，对吧。而Index ETF 收益比IUL高？请问过去index
ETF的年均收益是多少？请问可以和大家分享一下数据么？
另外过去的三十年有二十年经历了互联网和房地产增长，将来未必可重复。我倒觉得美
国将来会更像日本过去的二十年，指数没有什么改变。 | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 4 Two problems with IUL:
1) IUL's return is lower than Index ETF for sure, because lack of dividend
payout.
2) Expense too high.
As long as you are dollar cost averaging in investing in index, you will be
fine (yes, even in the Japanese market), because if not, all your other bets
will be a lot worse.
It's all about relativity, you can't say a product is good or bad by
evaluating the product itself, you need to ask - do I have a better
alternative? And here I am telling you an absolutely better one (at least
relative to IUL). | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 5 Another thing - 8.67% is problematic, for two reasons:
a) Historically, average return should be around 6%
b) Because IUL's index return excl dividend contribution, it should be 2%
lower. | c********t
发帖数: 351 | 6 谢谢
还是有点糊涂，IUL的floor-cap机制不是应该让return高么。最简单的例子，我在2013
年已经投入了所有的钱，
假设指数
2013： 1800
2014： 1500
2015：1800
指数基金应该是没有return。IUL为1% (2013-2014跌16%,floor)+13.5%(2013-2014涨20
%，cap)
换句话说，对于一个波动的，但不上涨的市场，IUL应该优势非常大啊。
还有,IUL为啥要做dollar cost averaging？肯定是放的越多越好，floor-cap机制应该
能够保护自己的资产。
最后，为什么你认为IUL expense too high呢？按照规定，只有最开始八年的admin
fee ，以及放钱的6%,20元的管理费而已。莫非还有别的隐藏费用？ | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 7 IUL为啥要做dollar cost averaging？
>> 2 reasons:
a) There is 7-pay limitation on IUL, you can't invest a lot one-time.
b) In the long term, index will go up, but in the short term, it has
fluctuations, so you better DCA because nobody knows when is the peak and
when is the trough.
为什么你认为IUL expense too high呢？按照规定，只有最开始八年的admin
fee ，以及放钱的6%,20元的管理费而已。
>> Isn't this enough? Calculate how much the expenses you already
identified will earn you in 30 years, after-tax. You will be surprised how
much it could be. Is it worth the "tax saving" you will get?
莫非还有别的隐藏费用？
>> Yes, a lot higher COI compare with Term life, ask the salesperson.
Don't forget the dividend missed year after year, many people think it's
just the little thing, until they run the numbers. | c********t
发帖数: 351 | 8 谢谢redsim的介绍。
但还是不明白你的推理，你一直在讲IUL cost有多高。我首页的两张图，已经减掉IUL
的各种费用了啊。但长期来看，IUL明显比after tax的投资要好。
到最后还是简单的比较
IUL cap-floor的计算的收益率比较ETF+dividend哪个高
有历史数据看看就好了
现在变的更疑惑了，钱往哪里投啊？
how
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: IUL为啥要做dollar cost averaging？
: >> 2 reasons:
: a) There is 7-pay limitation on IUL, you can't invest a lot one-time.
: b) In the long term, index will go up, but in the short term, it has
: fluctuations, so you better DCA because nobody knows when is the peak and
: when is the trough.
: 为什么你认为IUL expense too high呢？按照规定，只有最开始八年的admin
: fee ，以及放钱的6%,20元的管理费而已。
: >> Isn't this enough? Calculate how much the expenses you already
: identified will earn you in 30 years, after-tax. You will be surprised how
| z*****a
发帖数: 3809 | 9 For investing yourself, the 35% tax assumption is too high. With a buy and
hold investment strategy, you only pay taxes on dividends while holding the
investment and long term capital gains when you sell. Of course, if you
invest through a Roth IRA, there are no taxes at all (on dividends or gains).
67
【在 c********t 的大作中提到】
: 下面画了张图，
: 1)IUL是代理给我的通过软件计算出来的，假设年收益率为8.67%。这个8.67%的数据是
: 过去20年通过IUL方式算出来的平均值。保险的cash value是减掉所有费用后的属于我
: 的钱。
: 2）我自己用同样的钱来投资，前三十年每年付了550的保险费用。每年收益仍然是8.67
: %，同时交掉了35%的税。
: 3）total premium是我自己付的钱。
: 解释一下我所能想到的东西
: 1) whole life里面有各种隐藏费用--
: 但是下图IUL里面是cash value，已经刨除了各种费用。
| S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 10 My old post
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Investment/31276089_3.html
67
【在 c********t 的大作中提到】
: 下面画了张图，
: 1)IUL是代理给我的通过软件计算出来的，假设年收益率为8.67%。这个8.67%的数据是
: 过去20年通过IUL方式算出来的平均值。保险的cash value是减掉所有费用后的属于我
: 的钱。
: 2）我自己用同样的钱来投资，前三十年每年付了550的保险费用。每年收益仍然是8.67
: %，同时交掉了35%的税。
: 3）total premium是我自己付的钱。
: 解释一下我所能想到的东西
: 1) whole life里面有各种隐藏费用--
: 但是下图IUL里面是cash value，已经刨除了各种费用。
| | | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 11 "想来想去，我还是觉得IUL是好东西。我明白前几年我不会赚钱。但是一旦有了这个工
具，我将来的钱可以多余时放入投资，需要时拿出。应该值得我现在走资啊。"
Based on your comments above, I can safely say:
1. You still don't know IUL (you don't know what you don't know)
2. Your agent didn't explain this to you (either s/he doesn't know or doesn'
t want to tell you).
First of all, the high cost/low return discussions above should already
clearly tell you that IUL's cash value will be significantly less than the
other alternative (Term+Index ETF), there is no arguments on that.
Now, another fundamental mistake most IUL buyers make - "这就是我的小免税银
行,多余的钱就往里放,需要的时候就往外拿".
Well, only we wish insurance companies work for you!
我用一个例子和一些数字来说明吧:
You bought a $500K IUL at age 40 with annual contribution $15K, assume
annual return 6% and for simplicity's sake, ignore any cost. At age 50,
your cash value grows to $210K.
If you die at 1 day after age 50, your beneficiary will get $500K.
Now, at age 45, you found your income has increased and you could contribute
a little more each year, say $5K more. So you contributed total $25K more
when you arrive at age 50. Add some gains, assume the total incremental "
savings" is $30K.
So your new cash value at age 50 becomes $240K (=$210K+$30K).
And you still die at 1 day after age 50.
Will your beneficiary get $500K+$30K?
No, still the same $500K!
That $30K "savings" just went to the pocket of the insurance company!
Note: the above illustration is a little simplified, as there will be some
COI adjustment due to additional cash value, but you should get the main
idea. | m*****a
发帖数: 1158 | 12 如果你有闲钱，家庭年收入在15万到20万或以上
就概念来说IUL是个好东西。
但现实的问题是费用太高，举个例子，说白了就是美国政府本来想通过这个工具减轻自
己的负担，给了我们100块钱做incentive，结果保险公司拿走了90块，我们只剩10块钱
的incentive。相对来说就没那么吸引人了。
67
【在 c********t 的大作中提到】
: 下面画了张图，
: 1)IUL是代理给我的通过软件计算出来的，假设年收益率为8.67%。这个8.67%的数据是
: 过去20年通过IUL方式算出来的平均值。保险的cash value是减掉所有费用后的属于我
: 的钱。
: 2）我自己用同样的钱来投资，前三十年每年付了550的保险费用。每年收益仍然是8.67
: %，同时交掉了35%的税。
: 3）total premium是我自己付的钱。
: 解释一下我所能想到的东西
: 1) whole life里面有各种隐藏费用--
: 但是下图IUL里面是cash value，已经刨除了各种费用。
| j******8
发帖数: 746 | 13 agent说IUL还有个好处说是子女上大学申请奖学金，这个是不算在计算的财产范围之内
的，有利于申请到奖学金，比529计划要好，请说说这个是不是真的？ | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 14 1. cash value of insurance 不算在计算的财产范围之内 - always true
2. 有利于申请到奖学金 - partially true with conditions
3. 比529计划要好 - wrong
Now I will explain why 2 is partially true and why 3 is just plain wrong
using some numbers.
My assumption will be based on a typical middle class family's situation,
numbers might be rough but hopefully you get the point.
If you have planned to save $10K per year to 529 plan over 10 years, at the
time when you need it, assume it grows to $150K.
529 plan is counted as your asset, which will be discounted at about 10%
level before applying a "grading factor" to calculate your "expected family
contribution" towards college expense (your income carries 100% weight).
The grading factor is about 1/3, it will be applied to the discounted asset
amount. Net net, your $150K 529 asset will have $150K*10%*(1/3) = $5K
potential negative impact on your child's college financial aid eligibility.
(I say potential, because financial aid has many forms, only one form =
free money, for most other forms you have to pay interest or work and you
might not work it for your child anyway)
However, 529 plan has tax benefits, the $50K will result in at least $50K*15
%=$7.5K long term capital gain tax saving (many states have state tax saving
as well, not counted here), which is real saving for sure, and more than
the possible $5K negative impact.
Now, someone will remind you - IUL has no tax impact. True.
But your next question is - in order to avoid the $5K potential negative
impact, how much do you have to pay.
The answer - more than 10 times of the $5K possible saving you can expect.
For details, please Google this board, there are already too many threads
discussing why IUL doesn't fit middle class families. After studying them,
please come back asking for questions not answered in those discussions.
In the end, IUL helps 子女上大学申请奖学金 is just another form of marketing
gimmicks used by the sales people. Don't fall into the trap. | c********t
发帖数: 351 | 15 说实话，我就觉得IUL有一个优点，就是假设未来２０年只波动，但不增长。IUL的回报
会比普通的投资多。 | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 16 "假设未来２０年只波动，但不增长。IUL的回报会比普通的投资多。"
This statement is too vague, it's best to let numbers talk.
But even from a qualitative perspective, in a flat market, as long as the
market fluctuates, and as long as you do dollar cost averaging, your low
cost investment should still beat IUL, for two key reasons -
1) the IUL's initial years' costs are simply too high, it offsets any
benefits brought by it;
2) in a down market, your investment will have more purchasing power! | l***n
发帖数: 64 | 17 看了这里的讨论,也用了一年的IUL, 有几点想请教一下,
1. IUL的expense很清楚,每月大概$180的deductions and fee, 每次deposit抽取6%,为
什么
你认为费用很高呢? 7年以后基本上不用再往里放钱后,那点费用基本可忽略了吧?
2.IUL本来就是根据INDEX的增长给你利息,你没有股票,当然不会有DIVIDENT.
3. IUL帐号里的钱是免税的,这应该是最大的优点了。
4.IUL另一个好处是不怕股市大跌，longterm 的平均年收益要于股票吧，特别是近13年。
用了一年的IUL，几天刚看了statement，INDEX account去年的interest rate是13.25%
(lock rate),觉得很满意了。当然过去一年是牛市，股票收益会更多，但从投资多元化，
和长远来看，IUL是一个不错的产品。特别是对30多岁，每年不缺这1万多闲钱的家庭来
说，
越早开户越好，而且最好每年放满。
本人不是任何保险公司的托，只想和大家分享一下经验。当初开户后看了这里的讨论，
感觉有点上当，心理有点慌。今天仔细看了statement,感觉和当初听到的差不多。准备
长期坚持放下去。 | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 18 lemin,
I don't know your unique situation, but chances are (see exceptions below),
你上当了!
Your honest comments tell me you missed the point of all the IUL discussion
- you cannot just look at IUL's performance itself and say, this is a good
or bad product.
You need to have a benchmark to judge IUL, and a fair one is Term+Index ETF
(let's call this option 2).
1) You already pointed out IUL's fee, do you know how low the fee in option
2 is? You might think the difference in each year is small, but do you know
how much the difference between the two options' fees will grow in 30 years
? (You will be amazed by the number, I always say this - the most important
factor in one's success in investment is long term compounding, with IUL,
you already lost that edge).
2) Ditto for the missed dividend yield, year after year, with IUL. You
already realized it now (but I am willing to bet you didn't know this when
you opened your IUL account, because if you did, you wouldn't tolerate this
big disadvantage in IUL!). Just Google to see how significant dividend
yield is to one's long term success in investing.
3)You do have tax savings, but you know you paid for it with the missed
opportunities! Furthermore, when you enter into retirement time and want to
use the money, you have two options, unfortunately both are bad:
a) you can close IUL to take money out, in this case, your will be subject
to income tax which is a very big number, so I assume most people will do as
agents tell them -
b) take loan out of IUL, that is "free money".
Do you really believe it's free money?
First of all, it's YOUR money, not something insurance company gives to you.
Second, if you die during the period, insurance companies will deduct it
from your payout, so it isn't free!
Third, I bet most people don't know this - when you take money out of IUL
for retirement use, thinking you got a good tax-free deal, your cost of
insurance will be up, guess how expensive insurance will be at your
retirement time? What agent showed you at the time of opening the policy
that small insurance premium you have to pay as you getting older (thanks to
your increasing cash value in the policy) now all of a sudden becomes a
monster!
Because of the above reasons, IUL is really for super wealthy families to
leave money for children, not for policy owners' own use.
You might say, OK, I will leave IUL to my kids, and I won't touch them in my
own retirement time. Fine, but you still paid a hefty price for this
option, and because you can do the same with option 2, with more money for
your kids. Wealthy families need IUL to avoid estate tax, but for most
middle class families, that's not a concern (the $5M limit will be inflation
adjusted, so you can imagine in 30 years, it will be more than $10M, if
that's your concern, IUL is OK for you, although for super wealthy families,
there will be better products than IUL).
4) Yes, IUL prevented loss in a down market, but you also got capped on the
upside. In the long term, since the market will be up, you actually will
like the down markets because with dollar cost averaging, you will
accumulate more shares in ETF, and you will end up being a big winner in the
end!
I'm an insurance agent, I can sell IUL to anyone, but my conscience tells me
, for most working families, just help them get the lowest cost Term, and
point out the way to invest in low cost indext ETF's, I will have a very
good night's sleep, every day, so will my clients!
Maybe someday I should write an ebook to show the good, bad, and ugly of IUL! | l***n
发帖数: 64 | 19 term has its limitation. After 20/25 years, if you are still alive,
you will not be insured, if you buy another life insurance at that time,
the cost will be much higher.
Most people who do investment have trading account. They can buy index ETF
too. But not all their money. They also have saving account, and maybe
invest
in CD. The return from saving account and CD is much lower than IUL in long
term, and IUL provide you a perm life insurance.
In the past 10 years, SPY increase 60% plus 2% non compound divident.
IUL has average 10% compound interest annually.It is huge difference.
For me, IUL provide me perm life insurance, and a low risk, at least much
higher
rate financial product than saving and CD. My strategy is to accumulate cash
value
in IUL as fast as possible. After I have 100k in it, I will not touch it in
30
years unless in emergency. Maybe in the first 7 years,I have less money to
invest
in index ETF, stocks, or other financial product. But after that, the
interest from
IUL will cover the premium. I can invest more in stock market. It is hard to
say
I have big loss than if I invest these money in index ETF. Because it is
hard for
INDEX increase a lot. BULL market usually does not last longer than 5 years.
IUL does not require you to be super wealthy. Even you have a lot of money,
you can
only put less than 20k into it when you in are 30 years.And when you are in
40's,
you have enough cash value in it, you don't have to put money in it unless
you
want. total 100k in 7 years is not a big money at least for mid class like
me.
IUL is just one a financial produc. People need to build its own portfolio.
You
can not say one investment is good, the other is 骗人. Good investment also
need
good strategy. I would like to learn any good suggestion in investment and
do my
judgement based on my financial situation.
| l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 20 当然对保险业的人来说，确实是不错，越复杂也越有可能忽悠，吃饭嘛，可以理解
很多金融产品的设计理念都一样，所谓浑水摸鱼，呵呵
long
【在 l***n 的大作中提到】
: term has its limitation. After 20/25 years, if you are still alive,
: you will not be insured, if you buy another life insurance at that time,
: the cost will be much higher.
: Most people who do investment have trading account. They can buy index ETF
: too. But not all their money. They also have saving account, and maybe
: invest
: in CD. The return from saving account and CD is much lower than IUL in long
: term, and IUL provide you a perm life insurance.
: In the past 10 years, SPY increase 60% plus 2% non compound divident.
: IUL has average 10% compound interest annually.It is huge difference.
| | | l******r
发帖数: 1642 | 21 这种自问自答的99%都是托
理他们浪费时间
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 l******g 的大作中提到】
: 当然对保险业的人来说，确实是不错，越复杂也越有可能忽悠，吃饭嘛，可以理解
: 很多金融产品的设计理念都一样，所谓浑水摸鱼，呵呵
:
: long
| l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 22 嗯，年纪大了，回复一下以后方便查找，不然记不住哪几个是托，嘿嘿
【在 l******r 的大作中提到】
: 这种自问自答的99%都是托
: 理他们浪费时间
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
| j******8
发帖数: 746 | 23 唉呀，按你这么说，iul确实是忽悠人的。但是我刚刚交了2个月1700元，如果退出，钱
就没了。你觉得还是及早退出止损，买term吗？ | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 24 If you keep it for 30 years, your loss will be FAR BIGGER than the 2 months'
money. Just treat it as a price paid for a lesson. Sorry. | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 25 I want to address some of the comments from lemin, as many of the
misunderstandings are very common, so this could serve as an education for
other people as well.
1) Term has a limited period, IUL gives me permanent life.
Let's say you bought $500K IUL, and year after year your contribution to it
leads to cash value of $1M at age 85. Do you know how much insurance you
will be getting at that time? Very little, for example, only about $50K.
In fact, this is precisely the reason when an agent shows you IUL's
insurance premiums, they don't look outrageously high even you get older,
because as your cash value grows, the amount of required insurance coverage
is shrinking. In other words, you are not really getting a permanent life
insurance as you thought!
You are just getting self insured, thanks to your growing cash value, which
could be a much larger amount, even after-tax, if you invest in index ETF in
the long term!
Can you use any of the IUL cash value? Yes, but with hefty price that
probably no one told you about.
Your agent might have told you that you could use it free in the form of
loan, but let's say you take out $200K for your retirement use, your
insurance coverage will not be that $50K anymore, it will be in the
neighborhood of $250K! Imagine how expensive your insurance premium will be
as you are in an older age with such a bigger insurance coverage. You
probably want to think twice when you say you still want a Permanent life
insurance (because the truth is, most likely you don't, unless you want to
leave a large amount of assets to your children and want to avoid estate tax
).
You certainly can't find this large insurance premium number in your initial
illustration, because if you do, you will walk away from this expensive and
not practical product (for middle class families who need access to this
money)!
2) IUL is better than CD/Savings/S&P in the past 10 years.
I always recommend people put 3-6 months rainy day funds in a safe but
liquid CD/Savings account, then invest the rest in low cost index ETF for
long term.
In the past 10 or so years, S&P didn't go anywhere, but I want to point out
two things:
a) IUL investment is not for just 10 years, it's for probably 30 or more
years! I have asked before, let me ask again - who can find any single 30-
year period in history IUL outperformed the index, please share with all of
us here!
b) Even in the past 12 years, if you do DCA, your result today will be
BETTER than IUL, please just pull a spreadsheet and run the numbers by
yourself!
3) I think the rest of your comments are just about confusion of cash value
from IUL, those are YOUR own money, which by now you should have realized
will be a bigger amount if you invested in our recommended alternative, and
along the way, unlike IUL, nobody will make a penny from YOUR money (index
ETF's annual expense is only around 0.1%)!
4) IUL is a legit product, but when someone sells you an ill-fit product, I
have to say 你上当了, 他或她骗人了 :( | z*****a
发帖数: 3809 | 26 From 1979 to 2012, annualized total return of the Russell 1000 index (
including dividends) is 11.453% per year.
If the yearly index total returns are capped between 1% and 13.5%, then the
annualized return is only 9.138% per year.
Assuming ETF expenses of 0.15% per year, $1 invested in the Russell 1000 at
the start of 1979 will be worth $38.10 at the end of 2012.
For an IUL with yearly returns capped between 1% and 13.5%, $1 invested at
the start of 1979 will be worth $19.55 at the end of 2012.
【在 c********t 的大作中提到】
: 谢谢你的回复。
: 你认为IUL的问题在于收益太低，对吧。而Index ETF 收益比IUL高？请问过去index
: ETF的年均收益是多少？请问可以和大家分享一下数据么？
: 另外过去的三十年有二十年经历了互联网和房地产增长，将来未必可重复。我倒觉得美
: 国将来会更像日本过去的二十年，指数没有什么改变。
| l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 27 嗯，sunk cost
months'
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: If you keep it for 30 years, your loss will be FAR BIGGER than the 2 months'
: money. Just treat it as a price paid for a lesson. Sorry.
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 28 IUL's cash value will be even less than $19.55 because it doesn't capture
dividend yields.
the
at
【在 z*****a 的大作中提到】
: From 1979 to 2012, annualized total return of the Russell 1000 index (
: including dividends) is 11.453% per year.
: If the yearly index total returns are capped between 1% and 13.5%, then the
: annualized return is only 9.138% per year.
: Assuming ETF expenses of 0.15% per year, $1 invested in the Russell 1000 at
: the start of 1979 will be worth $38.10 at the end of 2012.
: For an IUL with yearly returns capped between 1% and 13.5%, $1 invested at
: the start of 1979 will be worth $19.55 at the end of 2012.
| c**********0
发帖数: 624 | 29 I do totally Agree with the comments.
Just add several points:
1. Life insurance needs is to cover your future income inflow. If you
retired, as said, you can self insure with some liquid assets if you do not
have any estate taxes (Net worth over 5.25 million). And always, give out
your personal information such as age, goal before this kind of posting.
Some products may fit you. So the whole perspective of treating an insurance
product as an investment is wrong.
2. Any cash value product is covering: mortality risk, and grow of cash
value.
3. The cash value growth is mostly like a bond, so you are buying a
mortality risk coverage together with a bond.
4. The benefit of Universal life is that you have flexibility of premiums
payment, the coverage can be lifetime, and the death benefits may increase
or not. Again, why do you need life time coverage? Bequest motivation? Tax
issues?
5. Loans from insurance product is not free (they need to make money), it is
not like you withdraw cash from your checking accounts.
it
coverage
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: I want to address some of the comments from lemin, as many of the
: misunderstandings are very common, so this could serve as an education for
: other people as well.
: 1) Term has a limited period, IUL gives me permanent life.
: Let's say you bought $500K IUL, and year after year your contribution to it
: leads to cash value of $1M at age 85. Do you know how much insurance you
: will be getting at that time? Very little, for example, only about $50K.
: In fact, this is precisely the reason when an agent shows you IUL's
: insurance premiums, they don't look outrageously high even you get older,
: because as your cash value grows, the amount of required insurance coverage
| m*****a
发帖数: 1158 | 30 现在的人都是人云亦云
IUL的确复杂，你最好自己去研究一下看是否适合你自己的情况
【在 j******8 的大作中提到】
: 唉呀，按你这么说，iul确实是忽悠人的。但是我刚刚交了2个月1700元，如果退出，钱
: 就没了。你觉得还是及早退出止损，买term吗？
| | | r****5
发帖数: 618 | 31 IUL 绝对有它的好出，但问题就是如何使用它。举个例子，如果你资金有限，放的是下
限，IUL 将会吃掉很多本金，尤其是当市场不好的时后--这里是说回报较低（<8%）.
8.7%的回报是平均数，不是每年都是的。但是如果你有闲钱，能多放，不要放最少，那
么回报不仅可以抵消所有开销，还能使得你的本金增长，长期（>20 年）是非常好的，
加上税收的好处，恐怕没有几个投资能比得上。IUL 就想一把屠龙刀，用的好时杀一切
，不好时，可能对自己不好。最后，不要相信一边倒的言论，评估一下自己的家庭情况
，做出最有益自己家的选择。 | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 32 "长期（>20 年）是非常好的"
看到这, Term+Index investing 笑了. | f********o
发帖数: 2181 | 33 昨天被人拉去听了这个讲座, 回来看了这里的讨论, 自己也动手写了个程序算了一遍
先不考虑他们的各种management fee, 只和S&P 500 三十年比收益 (1982-2012)
dividend 算 30%的税, 再投入index
IUL年收益100% match S&P with ceiling [0%, 12%]
1. 如果只考虑第一年投入的钱($1), 30年后
SP with div: $17.31
IUL: $8.24
2. 考虑每年投入相同数量的钱($1)买, 30年后
SP with div: $152.14
IUL: $110.34
3. 不考虑dividend, 只考虑第一年投入的钱($1), 30年后
SP w/o div: $10.12 (8.02%)
IUL: $8.24 (7.29%)
看起来IUL不是什么好的投资方式, 如果再考虑到他家各种高额fee的话
67
【在 c********t 的大作中提到】
: 下面画了张图，
: 1)IUL是代理给我的通过软件计算出来的，假设年收益率为8.67%。这个8.67%的数据是
: 过去20年通过IUL方式算出来的平均值。保险的cash value是减掉所有费用后的属于我
: 的钱。
: 2）我自己用同样的钱来投资，前三十年每年付了550的保险费用。每年收益仍然是8.67
: %，同时交掉了35%的税。
: 3）total premium是我自己付的钱。
: 解释一下我所能想到的东西
: 1) whole life里面有各种隐藏费用--
: 但是下图IUL里面是cash value，已经刨除了各种费用。
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