l*****n
发帖数: 199 | 1 最近我女朋友的姐姐加入了臭名昭著的WFG, 然后想把我女朋友的保险也换成IUL,所以
特地过来探讨下。
WFG的各种问题我也在短时间内体会到了。每次见到人都是聊保险，各种洗脑，然后一
直邀请人来参加聚会或者讲座，挂着理财的幌子推销IUL和拉人入会,最搞笑的是几乎每
次讲座的内容都是一样的；先说很基本的理财，然后说WFG能卖各种保险，最后各种鼓
吹IUL. 我发现他们卖掉的保险基本上全是本家WRL的IUL.
虽然以上原因让我很反感WFG,但是我觉得讨论事情应该是分开来的，所以我还是想多了
解点为什么WRL的IUL不好，到底适不适合不会投资的人。
版面上有很多抨击WRL IUL的帖子，但是我都没能找到完全信服的理由。我总结出来的
主要原因是费用高，然后就是按8%多的illustration带有误导性，另外我在别处还发现
的问题是贷款利率不固定。
有一点我不是很明白的是版面上有人说如果当年只有1%的回报那么扣除费用后是亏钱，
但是不是所有保险都有费用的吗？还有就是保险获益的免税不是一定程度可以免掉费用
吗？
我知道版面上大家都是推荐term life + mutual fund,但是如果是给那些不会投资不会
理财的人，IUL真的那么不好吗？
我研究发现这几年保险市场卖的最好的也是IUL类型的保险，所以求版上大神指导下。 | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 2 冰水，热巧克力，凉茶，不是说谁好谁不好，夏天喝凉茶很爽，冬天喝冰水就不舒服，
同样三服天顶太阳喝热巧克力同样不合适
合适不合适要看你自己的需要＋自己财政状况
版上一味鼓吹term life + mutual fund也有很大问题，当你活的太久，TERM过期，市
场大跌时，找他们去哭么
一般说学生不建议买什么IUL，工作年轻人士，喜欢各类投资，可以考虑分散风险，少
买点，因为年轻费用低，RATE锁住就很好
中年以后家庭不一样，要考虑的东西很多，就得具体分析
UL至少有一个好处，孩子上学前，把家庭存款全部清空一次性购买UL，等申请完奖学金
后免费退掉POLICY，很多人都用这办法，年收入２００K的家庭也有每年１－２万的奖
IUL保险其实也是一个长期过程，至少要１０年的期限来积累，买这个就是投资分散风
险，长期积累，以及隐私权，比如你破产离婚，都可以保留，现在最新是+LONG TERM
CARE RIDER
至于保险费用，那是IUL每个月的钱已经涵盖了费用，剩余的去投资积累CV，所以如果
你穷，放钱少，当CV积累不到一定数量时，就会一直要放钱。如果你有钱多放，CV积累
多，钱生的钱可以COVER你每个月保费时，你就不用再放钱了 | r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 3 我的想法是term过期之后一般都是孩子大学上完了，自己已经五六十岁了，应该有一定
的的财富积
累（401k, 储蓄，房子之类的），多数人都不需要life insurance这种东西了，有足够
多的钱配偶养老，孩子已经自立了，死了就死了。
据说UL前期退保的话损失很多fee, 用这个方法增加申请奖学金不知道是否值当。希望
高人点评一下。 | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 4
一般两个月的cancel期限，写在明文规定的，还点评什么，这有多少人买过保险，又有
多少人认真研究过？
至于你说的401k，那个就是government pension而已，想宰你无论政府还是市场都可以
，还不如roth
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: 我的想法是term过期之后一般都是孩子大学上完了，自己已经五六十岁了，应该有一定
: 的的财富积
: 累（401k, 储蓄，房子之类的），多数人都不需要life insurance这种东西了，有足够
: 多的钱配偶养老，孩子已经自立了，死了就死了。
: 据说UL前期退保的话损失很多fee, 用这个方法增加申请奖学金不知道是否值当。希望
: 高人点评一下。
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 5 LZ, 请你一一列出IUL的好处, 我来一一指出为什么IUL is never a good fit for
ordinary families, 好不好? | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 6 term life + index ETF fund is just like a self-made IUL, but 10 times better
than the IUL you will be sold to.
and, term life+index ETF is exactly for those 不会投资不会理财的人.
If you don't understand this, please feel free questions, many people on
this board will be happy to help you out, FREE. | r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 7 每年申请奖学金之前把钱转到UL里面，交了表之后取消UL？连续搞个4-8年，之到孩子
大学读完？
行得通吗？
至于401k vs roth这个东西是另外的问题。就不在这个帖子里面讨论了。
【在 x****o 的大作中提到】
:
: 一般两个月的cancel期限，写在明文规定的，还点评什么，这有多少人买过保险，又有
: 多少人认真研究过？
: 至于你说的401k，那个就是government pension而已，想宰你无论政府还是市场都可以
: ，还不如roth
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | | p***f
发帖数: 43 | 9 Cash value 如果告诉你不是你的钱，我估计你就不会买了 | m*****a
发帖数: 1158 | 10 cash value的确不是你的钱
但是你可以用
【在 p***f 的大作中提到】
: Cash value 如果告诉你不是你的钱，我估计你就不会买了
| | | m*****a
发帖数: 1158 | 11 IUL适合于比较有经济实力的，或是想做长期投资的。
前几年WRL的GIUL卖得很便宜，结果大家都来买，后来就涨价了
至于好不好，要看你自己的具体情况了
不要在版上人云亦云，觉得WFG多邪恶什么的，其实他家主要就是一个卖保险的公司，人
家也是挣个服务费，比起华尔街的那些奸商可要好多了
【在 l*****n 的大作中提到】
: 最近我女朋友的姐姐加入了臭名昭著的WFG, 然后想把我女朋友的保险也换成IUL,所以
: 特地过来探讨下。
: WFG的各种问题我也在短时间内体会到了。每次见到人都是聊保险，各种洗脑，然后一
: 直邀请人来参加聚会或者讲座，挂着理财的幌子推销IUL和拉人入会,最搞笑的是几乎每
: 次讲座的内容都是一样的；先说很基本的理财，然后说WFG能卖各种保险，最后各种鼓
: 吹IUL. 我发现他们卖掉的保险基本上全是本家WRL的IUL.
: 虽然以上原因让我很反感WFG,但是我觉得讨论事情应该是分开来的，所以我还是想多了
: 解点为什么WRL的IUL不好，到底适不适合不会投资的人。
: 版面上有很多抨击WRL IUL的帖子，但是我都没能找到完全信服的理由。我总结出来的
: 主要原因是费用高，然后就是按8%多的illustration带有误导性，另外我在别处还发现
| c**********0
发帖数: 624 | 12 cash value life insurance 的确从纯经济利益角度来说不适合很多家庭， 有些人钱
太多tax的角度有需要可以shelter income.
如果你能够commit 的长期投资 term, 应该是更好。
你自己可以做simulation 看看 | n****n
发帖数: 568 | 13 这个一般的要保一个million的每个月的premium一般是啥范围？
【在 c**********0 的大作中提到】
: cash value life insurance 的确从纯经济利益角度来说不适合很多家庭， 有些人钱
: 太多tax的角度有需要可以shelter income.
: 如果你能够commit 的长期投资 term, 应该是更好。
: 你自己可以做simulation 看看
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 14
IUL 里面猫腻太多了, 这是一个典型的.
You can use cash value in the form of "free" loan after certain number of
years, that's true.
However, it brings two consequences:
1) The death benefit payment will be lowered accordingly if the insured dies
during the period.
2) More importantly and few people know this - your insurance premium will
go UP, because you have less balance in the account to grow. This is
important because IUL is for retirement saving, when you start using it,
your age will be OLD, and your premium will be VERY expensive. From this
sense, it is NOT free loan, it costs you dearly.
For such complicated products, the biggest problem is - you don't know what
you don't know, and most sales people don't know either, and for the few
people who know, they won't tell you!
【在 m*****a 的大作中提到】
: cash value的确不是你的钱
: 但是你可以用
| s********z
发帖数: 35 | 15 对于一个已经买了iul的人, 是合适一次性多打入一些钱, 比如一万两万的,让它增值,
还是说就让他每个月扣个minimum, 把那个钱拿去做别的投资啊
【在 l*****n 的大作中提到】
: 最近我女朋友的姐姐加入了臭名昭著的WFG, 然后想把我女朋友的保险也换成IUL,所以
: 特地过来探讨下。
: WFG的各种问题我也在短时间内体会到了。每次见到人都是聊保险，各种洗脑，然后一
: 直邀请人来参加聚会或者讲座，挂着理财的幌子推销IUL和拉人入会,最搞笑的是几乎每
: 次讲座的内容都是一样的；先说很基本的理财，然后说WFG能卖各种保险，最后各种鼓
: 吹IUL. 我发现他们卖掉的保险基本上全是本家WRL的IUL.
: 虽然以上原因让我很反感WFG,但是我觉得讨论事情应该是分开来的，所以我还是想多了
: 解点为什么WRL的IUL不好，到底适不适合不会投资的人。
: 版面上有很多抨击WRL IUL的帖子，但是我都没能找到完全信服的理由。我总结出来的
: 主要原因是费用高，然后就是按8%多的illustration带有误导性，另外我在别处还发现
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 16 我的建议:
1. 如果开了一年以内的, damage control - 直接 cancel.
2. 否则, 降低保额, 只付 minimum. As soon as no surrender, 赶紧关掉. | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 17
保险是１比５左右，你要１００万，至少要２０万的投入，如果十年期限放完，就是每
年放２万，每个月放２０００
【在 n****n 的大作中提到】
: 这个一般的要保一个million的每个月的premium一般是啥范围？
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 18
dies
你自己去算下
如果你的CASH VALUE增长部分足够COVER你的保费，你拿钱不影响
如果你的CASH VALUE增长不足够COVER你的保费，你的CV就会缩水，当CV没钱了，你就
要放钱交保费
并且随着年龄增大，如果你选择的是DB＋CV＝定值的，你的保费并不会明显增加
所以你笼统的说拿CV，premium就会增加是不准确的
另外你说的第一种情况，也是你不了解保险具体品种，你说的是DV＋CV＝定值，因为年
纪增大，人的保险费用会增加，所以有一种产品是随着年纪增大，你的CV积攒的多，而
DB在减少，这样你每个月付的保险费用不会显注增加。这种产品是你死了，DB＋CV
而你所谓的DB不减少是基于传统保险类型的设计，也就是DB是定值，这种情况，你拿了
CV，DB是不会变化的，你死了，DB是定值
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 我的建议:
: 1. 如果开了一年以内的, damage control - 直接 cancel.
: 2. 否则, 降低保额, 只付 minimum. As soon as no surrender, 赶紧关掉.
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 19
具体家庭不一样是差别很大，不过如果买了，而且要确定保留
能放尽量放到guaranteed
【在 s********z 的大作中提到】
: 对于一个已经买了iul的人, 是合适一次性多打入一些钱, 比如一万两万的,让它增值,
: 还是说就让他每个月扣个minimum, 把那个钱拿去做别的投资啊
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 20
你这个建议真不准确
１：如果买了保险，是根据家庭需要来设计的，改也要根据家庭需要来改
２：IUL的特点就是CV增长，DB减少，这样老了能攒下一笔CV，既可以自己使用，又可
以当遗产给后代。你如果每个月只交最少的，没有CV积攒，那买这个的意义是什么，为
什么不去买TERM？
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 我的建议:
: 1. 如果开了一年以内的, damage control - 直接 cancel.
: 2. 否则, 降低保额, 只付 minimum. As soon as no surrender, 赶紧关掉.
| | | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 21
很难连续搞几年，因为每个保险公司都会核查你之前的历史记录
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: 每年申请奖学金之前把钱转到UL里面，交了表之后取消UL？连续搞个4-8年，之到孩子
: 大学读完？
: 行得通吗？
: 至于401k vs roth这个东西是另外的问题。就不在这个帖子里面讨论了。
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 22 1. Let me say this again - when you are old and take out cash value to use
for retirement use, your premium WILL BE HIGHER.
The reason is simple, premium is based on your age and remaining cash value
in your account (the two scenarios you mentioned). Now with older age and
less cash value to generate contribution (because you take out some cash
value to use), your premium will be higher than if you do nothing (leave the
money to your heirs).
所以, 我说的是正确的.
2. I was referring to level death benefit option, which I can safely say is
what most of IUL sales people use to illustrate to prospects. Because
otherwise the illustration will be ugly (very very expensive) and there is
no chance for them to make a sale.
There is really no need to further discuss IUL - if you are not worried
about estate tax, IUL/VUL is NOT for you. Period.
【在 x****o 的大作中提到】
:
: 很难连续搞几年，因为每个保险公司都会核查你之前的历史记录
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 23
value
the
is
你先搞明白IUL内部的种类再说吧，我都跟你说了，OPTION有好几种，其中一种是DB（
直接）＋CV＝常量，随着年数增长，CV增加，DB在减少，保险的premium你自己都说了
是根据你的年龄和直接DB来计算的，那么年龄增加，直接DB在减少，一增一减，你的
premium并没有显著增加
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 1. Let me say this again - when you are old and take out cash value to use
: for retirement use, your premium WILL BE HIGHER.
: The reason is simple, premium is based on your age and remaining cash value
: in your account (the two scenarios you mentioned). Now with older age and
: less cash value to generate contribution (because you take out some cash
: value to use), your premium will be higher than if you do nothing (leave the
: money to your heirs).
: 所以, 我说的是正确的.
: 2. I was referring to level death benefit option, which I can safely say is
: what most of IUL sales people use to illustrate to prospects. Because
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 24 Let me be direct with you - I have sold IUL in the past, I know it perfectly
well and I regret my past behavior.
There are two common OPTIONs - constant DB and variable DB. As I explained
in my post clearly - NO agent will sell constant DB because its illustration
will look ugly (very very expensive).
All my discussion has been focusing on the variable DB (which as CV grows,
it will decline). That's why IUL's illustration will look pretty good when
an agent shows to a prospect - great CV build up, tiny premiums when you are
old.
But wait until you want to use that CV by taking it out, premium will come
back hunt you. I bet no agent will show you that, and few agents understand
that impact!
If you want to leave everything in IUL to your kids, this is not a problem.
But all IUL's were sold based on the promise to give you great access to
YOUR money when you are old. That's why I think it's a cheating product for
middle class families.
That's why I turned to only recommend Term to my clients and I can say
confidently I represent the best Term providers in the U.S., no matter which
state you live!
I have run many testings based on historical data and all showed that by
going with a Term+index ETF combo, your CV will out run IUL's CV, even
considering taxes! | e*******5
发帖数: 266 | | z*f
发帖数: 139 | 26 Sorry. Obviously, you don't know IUL perfectly. You have confused the word
premium with Cost of Insurance(COI) charge. UL/IUL/VUL are all flexible
premium products. Within certain limitations, premium amounts can vary as
long as there is enough money in the account values to pay the ongoing fees(
including COI charge) and expenses.
You have also confused the word "DB" with Net Amount at Risk(NAR)when you
say "as CV grows, it(DB) will decline". There are two common death benefit
options:
Option A: DB=specified amount(or face amount). You are calling this variable
DB which is very confusing.
Option B: DB=specified amount + AV. You are calling this constant DB. This
is even more confusing because the death benefit would vary with your AV
under this option.
NAR is the base for COI charge. It is the difference between your DB and AV.
That is, AV is considered your money. This part of DB is not the insurance
company's risk and they should not make a charge on it.
Under option A, NAR=specified amount-AV. As AV grows, the NAR will decline.
Under option B, NAR is fixed at specified amount.
More COI charges will be deducted from your account under option B, but you
will get more DB if the insured dies.
You have mentioned "I have run many testings based on historical data and
all showed that by going with a Term+index ETF combo, your CV will out run
IUL's CV, even considering taxes!" You have wasted your time because it is
just so obvious:). Most people buy IUL because it offers a downside
protection. Nothing is free, my friend. Insurance products are for risk-
averse people.
总结一下我的观点：
1.就像其它商品一样，产品本身没有对错。只有买对的和买错的。你买了不需要，不适
合的产品，就是错的。比如你买了辆兰博基尼就是为了去家门口中国店买菜，显然是个
错买，但兰博基尼本身可不是废柴。
2.保险agent们的素质堪忧。很多agent自己都没有搞很清楚，也很难相信他们能帮助客
户作出最好的选择。所以我建议朋友们还是要咨询有经验的financial adviser。买保
险产品就跟做精算的探讨下。
3.说话口气真不能太大。毕竟保险公司都是几十亿，几百亿市值的大公司。Rating 也
普遍是AA. 说人家cheating，一定要作好被嘲笑的准备:)
顺便说一下，我自己有买term，也有买IUL. 我不是agent,至少现在不是:)。
我认为我买了自己需要的东西。I know nothing perfectly:)
perfectly
explained
illustration
when
are
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: Let me be direct with you - I have sold IUL in the past, I know it perfectly
: well and I regret my past behavior.
: There are two common OPTIONs - constant DB and variable DB. As I explained
: in my post clearly - NO agent will sell constant DB because its illustration
: will look ugly (very very expensive).
: All my discussion has been focusing on the variable DB (which as CV grows,
: it will decline). That's why IUL's illustration will look pretty good when
: an agent shows to a prospect - great CV build up, tiny premiums when you are
: old.
: But wait until you want to use that CV by taking it out, premium will come
| z*f
发帖数: 139 | 27 看在我码这么多字的面子，不管有用没用，最起码是中肯的（我既不卖term,也不卖IUL
)，有人能给几个包子鼓励下么。
我上一次码这么多是13年前了。
fees(
variable
【在 z*f 的大作中提到】
: Sorry. Obviously, you don't know IUL perfectly. You have confused the word
: premium with Cost of Insurance(COI) charge. UL/IUL/VUL are all flexible
: premium products. Within certain limitations, premium amounts can vary as
: long as there is enough money in the account values to pay the ongoing fees(
: including COI charge) and expenses.
: You have also confused the word "DB" with Net Amount at Risk(NAR)when you
: say "as CV grows, it(DB) will decline". There are two common death benefit
: options:
: Option A: DB=specified amount(or face amount). You are calling this variable
: DB which is very confusing.
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 28 Alright, 您打了这么多字, 我要感谢并回一下.
对您的总结:
1. Agreed.
IUL is a legit product itself. I never contended its legitimacy, all I have
done is to show there is another better (meaning lower cost, better after-
tax CV) option out there.
2. Agreed.
The problem is, if your money is only enough to buy a Toyota Camry, but met
with a sales person that is good at pushing 兰博基尼 to you, and when you
happily bought it and drove to 家门口中国店买菜, I just have to say
something, even that might hurt the buyer's feeling.
3. Agreed.
You inappropriately took what I said out of context - I said "it's a
cheating product for middle class families", and I still stand by it.
Finally, I have to say - you are right, I shouldn't have said I know it
perfectly well, it's simply a product with too many complicated details
built into it, you don't know what you don't know ... | s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 29 有您老大坐镇，我以后就不用为 IUL/VUL 这事儿操心了 :)
have
met
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: Alright, 您打了这么多字, 我要感谢并回一下.
: 对您的总结:
: 1. Agreed.
: IUL is a legit product itself. I never contended its legitimacy, all I have
: done is to show there is another better (meaning lower cost, better after-
: tax CV) option out there.
: 2. Agreed.
: The problem is, if your money is only enough to buy a Toyota Camry, but met
: with a sales person that is good at pushing 兰博基尼 to you, and when you
: happily bought it and drove to 家门口中国店买菜, I just have to say
| l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 30 ^_^
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 有您老大坐镇，我以后就不用为 IUL/VUL 这事儿操心了 :)
:
: have
: met
| | | M********r
发帖数: 278 | 31 just want to be devil's advocate... and for the record, i don't own IUL/VUL
and will tell anybody not to buy these products. However I have long had
this thought: to many novice investors, it really doesn't matter what
financial products they own. you can tell them that low cost index fund is
the way to go. But in the end, their behavior will determine their returns.
they will almost always buy high and sell low. their definition of long term
is always from now to the next bear market. (how many posts are there on
this board that start with the sentence: I am in for long term and I will
see what happens in 2-5 years?). they always want to trade for quick profit.
So any cost they save from the product will be ruined by thheir own
behavior. as such, maybe a bad product such as IUL/IVL will ironically do
them a favor. at least you can't trade these products. | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 32 Unfortunately you are right :(
The biggest issue I have with the IUL/VUL type of product is - people's
attention has been led to the "protection on the downside", etc, without
showing them the alternative.
I will bet that most people won't buy IUL/VUL if they were shown the
alternative, as people tend to have high confidence on themselves.
But as you correctly pointed out - few people have the discipline to
consistently invest with DCA on low cost index funds, even that's something
very easy to do. | l*****n
发帖数: 199 | 33 最近我女朋友的姐姐加入了臭名昭著的WFG, 然后想把我女朋友的保险也换成IUL,所以
特地过来探讨下。
WFG的各种问题我也在短时间内体会到了。每次见到人都是聊保险，各种洗脑，然后一
直邀请人来参加聚会或者讲座，挂着理财的幌子推销IUL和拉人入会,最搞笑的是几乎每
次讲座的内容都是一样的；先说很基本的理财，然后说WFG能卖各种保险，最后各种鼓
吹IUL. 我发现他们卖掉的保险基本上全是本家WRL的IUL.
虽然以上原因让我很反感WFG,但是我觉得讨论事情应该是分开来的，所以我还是想多了
解点为什么WRL的IUL不好，到底适不适合不会投资的人。
版面上有很多抨击WRL IUL的帖子，但是我都没能找到完全信服的理由。我总结出来的
主要原因是费用高，然后就是按8%多的illustration带有误导性，另外我在别处还发现
的问题是贷款利率不固定。
有一点我不是很明白的是版面上有人说如果当年只有1%的回报那么扣除费用后是亏钱，
但是不是所有保险都有费用的吗？还有就是保险获益的免税不是一定程度可以免掉费用
吗？
我知道版面上大家都是推荐term life + mutual fund,但是如果是给那些不会投资不会
理财的人，IUL真的那么不好吗？
我研究发现这几年保险市场卖的最好的也是IUL类型的保险，所以求版上大神指导下。 | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 34 冰水，热巧克力，凉茶，不是说谁好谁不好，夏天喝凉茶很爽，冬天喝冰水就不舒服，
同样三服天顶太阳喝热巧克力同样不合适
合适不合适要看你自己的需要＋自己财政状况
版上一味鼓吹term life + mutual fund也有很大问题，当你活的太久，TERM过期，市
场大跌时，找他们去哭么
一般说学生不建议买什么IUL，工作年轻人士，喜欢各类投资，可以考虑分散风险，少
买点，因为年轻费用低，RATE锁住就很好
中年以后家庭不一样，要考虑的东西很多，就得具体分析
UL至少有一个好处，孩子上学前，把家庭存款全部清空一次性购买UL，等申请完奖学金
后免费退掉POLICY，很多人都用这办法，年收入２００K的家庭也有每年１－２万的奖
IUL保险其实也是一个长期过程，至少要１０年的期限来积累，买这个就是投资分散风
险，长期积累，以及隐私权，比如你破产离婚，都可以保留，现在最新是+LONG TERM
CARE RIDER
至于保险费用，那是IUL每个月的钱已经涵盖了费用，剩余的去投资积累CV，所以如果
你穷，放钱少，当CV积累不到一定数量时，就会一直要放钱。如果你有钱多放，CV积累
多，钱生的钱可以COVER你每个月保费时，你就不用再放钱了 | r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 35 我的想法是term过期之后一般都是孩子大学上完了，自己已经五六十岁了，应该有一定
的的财富积
累（401k, 储蓄，房子之类的），多数人都不需要life insurance这种东西了，有足够
多的钱配偶养老，孩子已经自立了，死了就死了。
据说UL前期退保的话损失很多fee, 用这个方法增加申请奖学金不知道是否值当。希望
高人点评一下。 | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 36
一般两个月的cancel期限，写在明文规定的，还点评什么，这有多少人买过保险，又有
多少人认真研究过？
至于你说的401k，那个就是government pension而已，想宰你无论政府还是市场都可以
，还不如roth
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: 我的想法是term过期之后一般都是孩子大学上完了，自己已经五六十岁了，应该有一定
: 的的财富积
: 累（401k, 储蓄，房子之类的），多数人都不需要life insurance这种东西了，有足够
: 多的钱配偶养老，孩子已经自立了，死了就死了。
: 据说UL前期退保的话损失很多fee, 用这个方法增加申请奖学金不知道是否值当。希望
: 高人点评一下。
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 37 LZ, 请你一一列出IUL的好处, 我来一一指出为什么IUL is never a good fit for
ordinary families, 好不好? | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 38 term life + index ETF fund is just like a self-made IUL, but 10 times better
than the IUL you will be sold to.
and, term life+index ETF is exactly for those 不会投资不会理财的人.
If you don't understand this, please feel free questions, many people on
this board will be happy to help you out, FREE. | r****9
发帖数: 4961 | 39 每年申请奖学金之前把钱转到UL里面，交了表之后取消UL？连续搞个4-8年，之到孩子
大学读完？
行得通吗？
至于401k vs roth这个东西是另外的问题。就不在这个帖子里面讨论了。
【在 x****o 的大作中提到】
:
: 一般两个月的cancel期限，写在明文规定的，还点评什么，这有多少人买过保险，又有
: 多少人认真研究过？
: 至于你说的401k，那个就是government pension而已，想宰你无论政府还是市场都可以
: ，还不如roth
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | | | | p***f
发帖数: 43 | 41 Cash value 如果告诉你不是你的钱，我估计你就不会买了 | m*****a
发帖数: 1158 | 42 cash value的确不是你的钱
但是你可以用
【在 p***f 的大作中提到】
: Cash value 如果告诉你不是你的钱，我估计你就不会买了
| m*****a
发帖数: 1158 | 43 IUL适合于比较有经济实力的，或是想做长期投资的。
前几年WRL的GIUL卖得很便宜，结果大家都来买，后来就涨价了
至于好不好，要看你自己的具体情况了
不要在版上人云亦云，觉得WFG多邪恶什么的，其实他家主要就是一个卖保险的公司，人
家也是挣个服务费，比起华尔街的那些奸商可要好多了
【在 l*****n 的大作中提到】
: 最近我女朋友的姐姐加入了臭名昭著的WFG, 然后想把我女朋友的保险也换成IUL,所以
: 特地过来探讨下。
: WFG的各种问题我也在短时间内体会到了。每次见到人都是聊保险，各种洗脑，然后一
: 直邀请人来参加聚会或者讲座，挂着理财的幌子推销IUL和拉人入会,最搞笑的是几乎每
: 次讲座的内容都是一样的；先说很基本的理财，然后说WFG能卖各种保险，最后各种鼓
: 吹IUL. 我发现他们卖掉的保险基本上全是本家WRL的IUL.
: 虽然以上原因让我很反感WFG,但是我觉得讨论事情应该是分开来的，所以我还是想多了
: 解点为什么WRL的IUL不好，到底适不适合不会投资的人。
: 版面上有很多抨击WRL IUL的帖子，但是我都没能找到完全信服的理由。我总结出来的
: 主要原因是费用高，然后就是按8%多的illustration带有误导性，另外我在别处还发现
| c**********0
发帖数: 624 | 44 cash value life insurance 的确从纯经济利益角度来说不适合很多家庭， 有些人钱
太多tax的角度有需要可以shelter income.
如果你能够commit 的长期投资 term, 应该是更好。
你自己可以做simulation 看看 | n****n
发帖数: 568 | 45 这个一般的要保一个million的每个月的premium一般是啥范围？
【在 c**********0 的大作中提到】
: cash value life insurance 的确从纯经济利益角度来说不适合很多家庭， 有些人钱
: 太多tax的角度有需要可以shelter income.
: 如果你能够commit 的长期投资 term, 应该是更好。
: 你自己可以做simulation 看看
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 46
IUL 里面猫腻太多了, 这是一个典型的.
You can use cash value in the form of "free" loan after certain number of
years, that's true.
However, it brings two consequences:
1) The death benefit payment will be lowered accordingly if the insured dies
during the period.
2) More importantly and few people know this - your insurance premium will
go UP, because you have less balance in the account to grow. This is
important because IUL is for retirement saving, when you start using it,
your age will be OLD, and your premium will be VERY expensive. From this
sense, it is NOT free loan, it costs you dearly.
For such complicated products, the biggest problem is - you don't know what
you don't know, and most sales people don't know either, and for the few
people who know, they won't tell you!
【在 m*****a 的大作中提到】
: cash value的确不是你的钱
: 但是你可以用
| s********z
发帖数: 35 | 47 对于一个已经买了iul的人, 是合适一次性多打入一些钱, 比如一万两万的,让它增值,
还是说就让他每个月扣个minimum, 把那个钱拿去做别的投资啊
【在 l*****n 的大作中提到】
: 最近我女朋友的姐姐加入了臭名昭著的WFG, 然后想把我女朋友的保险也换成IUL,所以
: 特地过来探讨下。
: WFG的各种问题我也在短时间内体会到了。每次见到人都是聊保险，各种洗脑，然后一
: 直邀请人来参加聚会或者讲座，挂着理财的幌子推销IUL和拉人入会,最搞笑的是几乎每
: 次讲座的内容都是一样的；先说很基本的理财，然后说WFG能卖各种保险，最后各种鼓
: 吹IUL. 我发现他们卖掉的保险基本上全是本家WRL的IUL.
: 虽然以上原因让我很反感WFG,但是我觉得讨论事情应该是分开来的，所以我还是想多了
: 解点为什么WRL的IUL不好，到底适不适合不会投资的人。
: 版面上有很多抨击WRL IUL的帖子，但是我都没能找到完全信服的理由。我总结出来的
: 主要原因是费用高，然后就是按8%多的illustration带有误导性，另外我在别处还发现
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 48 我的建议:
1. 如果开了一年以内的, damage control - 直接 cancel.
2. 否则, 降低保额, 只付 minimum. As soon as no surrender, 赶紧关掉. | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 49
保险是１比５左右，你要１００万，至少要２０万的投入，如果十年期限放完，就是每
年放２万，每个月放２０００
【在 n****n 的大作中提到】
: 这个一般的要保一个million的每个月的premium一般是啥范围？
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 50
dies
你自己去算下
如果你的CASH VALUE增长部分足够COVER你的保费，你拿钱不影响
如果你的CASH VALUE增长不足够COVER你的保费，你的CV就会缩水，当CV没钱了，你就
要放钱交保费
并且随着年龄增大，如果你选择的是DB＋CV＝定值的，你的保费并不会明显增加
所以你笼统的说拿CV，premium就会增加是不准确的
另外你说的第一种情况，也是你不了解保险具体品种，你说的是DV＋CV＝定值，因为年
纪增大，人的保险费用会增加，所以有一种产品是随着年纪增大，你的CV积攒的多，而
DB在减少，这样你每个月付的保险费用不会显注增加。这种产品是你死了，DB＋CV
而你所谓的DB不减少是基于传统保险类型的设计，也就是DB是定值，这种情况，你拿了
CV，DB是不会变化的，你死了，DB是定值
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 我的建议:
: 1. 如果开了一年以内的, damage control - 直接 cancel.
: 2. 否则, 降低保额, 只付 minimum. As soon as no surrender, 赶紧关掉.
| | | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 51
具体家庭不一样是差别很大，不过如果买了，而且要确定保留
能放尽量放到guaranteed
【在 s********z 的大作中提到】
: 对于一个已经买了iul的人, 是合适一次性多打入一些钱, 比如一万两万的,让它增值,
: 还是说就让他每个月扣个minimum, 把那个钱拿去做别的投资啊
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 52
你这个建议真不准确
１：如果买了保险，是根据家庭需要来设计的，改也要根据家庭需要来改
２：IUL的特点就是CV增长，DB减少，这样老了能攒下一笔CV，既可以自己使用，又可
以当遗产给后代。你如果每个月只交最少的，没有CV积攒，那买这个的意义是什么，为
什么不去买TERM？
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 我的建议:
: 1. 如果开了一年以内的, damage control - 直接 cancel.
: 2. 否则, 降低保额, 只付 minimum. As soon as no surrender, 赶紧关掉.
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 53
很难连续搞几年，因为每个保险公司都会核查你之前的历史记录
【在 r****9 的大作中提到】
: 每年申请奖学金之前把钱转到UL里面，交了表之后取消UL？连续搞个4-8年，之到孩子
: 大学读完？
: 行得通吗？
: 至于401k vs roth这个东西是另外的问题。就不在这个帖子里面讨论了。
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 54 1. Let me say this again - when you are old and take out cash value to use
for retirement use, your premium WILL BE HIGHER.
The reason is simple, premium is based on your age and remaining cash value
in your account (the two scenarios you mentioned). Now with older age and
less cash value to generate contribution (because you take out some cash
value to use), your premium will be higher than if you do nothing (leave the
money to your heirs).
所以, 我说的是正确的.
2. I was referring to level death benefit option, which I can safely say is
what most of IUL sales people use to illustrate to prospects. Because
otherwise the illustration will be ugly (very very expensive) and there is
no chance for them to make a sale.
There is really no need to further discuss IUL - if you are not worried
about estate tax, IUL/VUL is NOT for you. Period.
【在 x****o 的大作中提到】
:
: 很难连续搞几年，因为每个保险公司都会核查你之前的历史记录
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 55
value
the
is
你先搞明白IUL内部的种类再说吧，我都跟你说了，OPTION有好几种，其中一种是DB（
直接）＋CV＝常量，随着年数增长，CV增加，DB在减少，保险的premium你自己都说了
是根据你的年龄和直接DB来计算的，那么年龄增加，直接DB在减少，一增一减，你的
premium并没有显著增加
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 1. Let me say this again - when you are old and take out cash value to use
: for retirement use, your premium WILL BE HIGHER.
: The reason is simple, premium is based on your age and remaining cash value
: in your account (the two scenarios you mentioned). Now with older age and
: less cash value to generate contribution (because you take out some cash
: value to use), your premium will be higher than if you do nothing (leave the
: money to your heirs).
: 所以, 我说的是正确的.
: 2. I was referring to level death benefit option, which I can safely say is
: what most of IUL sales people use to illustrate to prospects. Because
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 56 Let me be direct with you - I have sold IUL in the past, I know it perfectly
well and I regret my past behavior.
There are two common OPTIONs - constant DB and variable DB. As I explained
in my post clearly - NO agent will sell constant DB because its illustration
will look ugly (very very expensive).
All my discussion has been focusing on the variable DB (which as CV grows,
it will decline). That's why IUL's illustration will look pretty good when
an agent shows to a prospect - great CV build up, tiny premiums when you are
old.
But wait until you want to use that CV by taking it out, premium will come
back hunt you. I bet no agent will show you that, and few agents understand
that impact!
If you want to leave everything in IUL to your kids, this is not a problem.
But all IUL's were sold based on the promise to give you great access to
YOUR money when you are old. That's why I think it's a cheating product for
middle class families.
That's why I turned to only recommend Term to my clients and I can say
confidently I represent the best Term providers in the U.S., no matter which
state you live!
I have run many testings based on historical data and all showed that by
going with a Term+index ETF combo, your CV will out run IUL's CV, even
considering taxes! | e*******5
发帖数: 266 | | z*f
发帖数: 139 | 58 Sorry. Obviously, you don't know IUL perfectly. You have confused the word
premium with Cost of Insurance(COI) charge. UL/IUL/VUL are all flexible
premium products. Within certain limitations, premium amounts can vary as
long as there is enough money in the account values to pay the ongoing fees(
including COI charge) and expenses.
You have also confused the word "DB" with Net Amount at Risk(NAR)when you
say "as CV grows, it(DB) will decline". There are two common death benefit
options:
Option A: DB=specified amount(or face amount). You are calling this variable
DB which is very confusing.
Option B: DB=specified amount + AV. You are calling this constant DB. This
is even more confusing because the death benefit would vary with your AV
under this option.
NAR is the base for COI charge. It is the difference between your DB and AV.
That is, AV is considered your money. This part of DB is not the insurance
company's risk and they should not make a charge on it.
Under option A, NAR=specified amount-AV. As AV grows, the NAR will decline.
Under option B, NAR is fixed at specified amount.
More COI charges will be deducted from your account under option B, but you
will get more DB if the insured dies.
You have mentioned "I have run many testings based on historical data and
all showed that by going with a Term+index ETF combo, your CV will out run
IUL's CV, even considering taxes!" You have wasted your time because it is
just so obvious:). Most people buy IUL because it offers a downside
protection. Nothing is free, my friend. Insurance products are for risk-
averse people.
总结一下我的观点：
1.就像其它商品一样，产品本身没有对错。只有买对的和买错的。你买了不需要，不适
合的产品，就是错的。比如你买了辆兰博基尼就是为了去家门口中国店买菜，显然是个
错买，但兰博基尼本身可不是废柴。
2.保险agent们的素质堪忧。很多agent自己都没有搞很清楚，也很难相信他们能帮助客
户作出最好的选择。所以我建议朋友们还是要咨询有经验的financial adviser。买保
险产品就跟做精算的探讨下。
3.说话口气真不能太大。毕竟保险公司都是几十亿，几百亿市值的大公司。Rating 也
普遍是AA. 说人家cheating，一定要作好被嘲笑的准备:)
顺便说一下，我自己有买term，也有买IUL. 我不是agent,至少现在不是:)。
我认为我买了自己需要的东西。I know nothing perfectly:)
perfectly
explained
illustration
when
are
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: Let me be direct with you - I have sold IUL in the past, I know it perfectly
: well and I regret my past behavior.
: There are two common OPTIONs - constant DB and variable DB. As I explained
: in my post clearly - NO agent will sell constant DB because its illustration
: will look ugly (very very expensive).
: All my discussion has been focusing on the variable DB (which as CV grows,
: it will decline). That's why IUL's illustration will look pretty good when
: an agent shows to a prospect - great CV build up, tiny premiums when you are
: old.
: But wait until you want to use that CV by taking it out, premium will come
| z*f
发帖数: 139 | 59 看在我码这么多字的面子，不管有用没用，最起码是中肯的（我既不卖term,也不卖IUL
)，有人能给几个包子鼓励下么。
我上一次码这么多是13年前了。
fees(
variable
【在 z*f 的大作中提到】
: Sorry. Obviously, you don't know IUL perfectly. You have confused the word
: premium with Cost of Insurance(COI) charge. UL/IUL/VUL are all flexible
: premium products. Within certain limitations, premium amounts can vary as
: long as there is enough money in the account values to pay the ongoing fees(
: including COI charge) and expenses.
: You have also confused the word "DB" with Net Amount at Risk(NAR)when you
: say "as CV grows, it(DB) will decline". There are two common death benefit
: options:
: Option A: DB=specified amount(or face amount). You are calling this variable
: DB which is very confusing.
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 60 Alright, 您打了这么多字, 我要感谢并回一下.
对您的总结:
1. Agreed.
IUL is a legit product itself. I never contended its legitimacy, all I have
done is to show there is another better (meaning lower cost, better after-
tax CV) option out there.
2. Agreed.
The problem is, if your money is only enough to buy a Toyota Camry, but met
with a sales person that is good at pushing 兰博基尼 to you, and when you
happily bought it and drove to 家门口中国店买菜, I just have to say
something, even that might hurt the buyer's feeling.
3. Agreed.
You inappropriately took what I said out of context - I said "it's a
cheating product for middle class families", and I still stand by it.
Finally, I have to say - you are right, I shouldn't have said I know it
perfectly well, it's simply a product with too many complicated details
built into it, you don't know what you don't know ... | | | s********n
发帖数: 1962 | 61 有您老大坐镇，我以后就不用为 IUL/VUL 这事儿操心了 :)
have
met
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: Alright, 您打了这么多字, 我要感谢并回一下.
: 对您的总结:
: 1. Agreed.
: IUL is a legit product itself. I never contended its legitimacy, all I have
: done is to show there is another better (meaning lower cost, better after-
: tax CV) option out there.
: 2. Agreed.
: The problem is, if your money is only enough to buy a Toyota Camry, but met
: with a sales person that is good at pushing 兰博基尼 to you, and when you
: happily bought it and drove to 家门口中国店买菜, I just have to say
| l******g
发帖数: 6771 | 62 ^_^
【在 s********n 的大作中提到】
: 有您老大坐镇，我以后就不用为 IUL/VUL 这事儿操心了 :)
:
: have
: met
| M********r
发帖数: 278 | 63 just want to be devil's advocate... and for the record, i don't own IUL/VUL
and will tell anybody not to buy these products. However I have long had
this thought: to many novice investors, it really doesn't matter what
financial products they own. you can tell them that low cost index fund is
the way to go. But in the end, their behavior will determine their returns.
they will almost always buy high and sell low. their definition of long term
is always from now to the next bear market. (how many posts are there on
this board that start with the sentence: I am in for long term and I will
see what happens in 2-5 years?). they always want to trade for quick profit.
So any cost they save from the product will be ruined by thheir own
behavior. as such, maybe a bad product such as IUL/IVL will ironically do
them a favor. at least you can't trade these products. | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 64 Unfortunately you are right :(
The biggest issue I have with the IUL/VUL type of product is - people's
attention has been led to the "protection on the downside", etc, without
showing them the alternative.
I will bet that most people won't buy IUL/VUL if they were shown the
alternative, as people tend to have high confidence on themselves.
But as you correctly pointed out - few people have the discipline to
consistently invest with DCA on low cost index funds, even that's something
very easy to do. | l*****n
发帖数: 199 | 65
something
谢谢redsim大神在小弟帖子的各种回复，我本人肯定不会买GIUL之类的产品。
但是我觉得给那些灰色收入很多的中国人，比如开餐馆的，GIUL还是蛮适合他们的，因
为他们本来只能把钱放在保险箱里，现在可以放到保险里，至少是份投资，而且政府也
查不到这块。不知道你同不同意我的意见？
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: Unfortunately you are right :(
: The biggest issue I have with the IUL/VUL type of product is - people's
: attention has been led to the "protection on the downside", etc, without
: showing them the alternative.
: I will bet that most people won't buy IUL/VUL if they were shown the
: alternative, as people tend to have high confidence on themselves.
: But as you correctly pointed out - few people have the discipline to
: consistently invest with DCA on low cost index funds, even that's something
: very easy to do.
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 66 想法还行, 但实际上还是有问题.
Most importantly because anti-money laundering regulations.
First, when you buy an IUL/VUL, you need to justify with appropriate income
sources. How do you justify it with 灰色收入?
Second, for large amount of premium payments, you can't pay with cash. If
you pay with check, you have to deposit the 灰色收入 in a checking account,
which will leave traces.
Third, how does the owner plan to use the cash value? There are a few ways I
have discussed before, none of them is good for people truly count on the
money for their retirement.
In the end, IUL/VUL are for rich family to leave a legacy to heirs, not for
ordinary families.
如果将来申请养老院之类的, cash value insurance 也是财产, 要申报的. | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 67
perfectly
explained
illustration
when
are
But wait until you want to use that CV by taking it out, premium will come
===============================
这个是明摆着的事实，如果CV远远小于FACE VALUE，premium 当然会一点点的吓死人
问题是如果你隔三差五的就用钱，IUL根本就不适合，只有一些你感觉十年二十年不用
的钱，放进去，才相对不错
我自己刚搞了一份IUL，拿到rate后我直接让agent把face value从500K变成300K，因为
我觉得不管我别的干什么，十年能有30K用不到的钱放满就好了，作为多样性选择。我
不觉得到我死了，这30K放在外面就一定能变成300K。他们卖保险的还很不乐意，可能
很多人觉得抹不开面子被言语忽悠就买了然后后悔，但是自己要会选择最适合自己的
如果专门为了投资，还要灵活用钱，那真没必要买IUL。你说你以前卖，然后很后悔，
不清楚你这个是怎么后悔来的，买卖自由，人做决定，拿笔签字，都是要负责的。
IUL就是个比一辈子保险好一点而已的东西，没必要被它本身组合的投资功能所迷惑，
也不用因为WFG就谈虎变色，WFG卖的也是各个保险公司的IUL，你去保险公司直接购买
，那些保险公司的agent就会挑烂的chart展示给你么，道理都是一样。
枪是杀人的工具，但是杀人的是人而不是枪。枪也可以是救人的工具，但是救人的是人
而不是枪
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: Let me be direct with you - I have sold IUL in the past, I know it perfectly
: well and I regret my past behavior.
: There are two common OPTIONs - constant DB and variable DB. As I explained
: in my post clearly - NO agent will sell constant DB because its illustration
: will look ugly (very very expensive).
: All my discussion has been focusing on the variable DB (which as CV grows,
: it will decline). That's why IUL's illustration will look pretty good when
: an agent shows to a prospect - great CV build up, tiny premiums when you are
: old.
: But wait until you want to use that CV by taking it out, premium will come
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 68 唉, 你还是没明白.
对你说所要达到的目的来说, Term+index investment 会比IUL好得多, | t***j
发帖数: 2620 | 69 请教 Term LIFE是什么东西？谢谢
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 唉, 你还是没明白.
: 对你说所要达到的目的来说, Term+index investment 会比IUL好得多,
| i****e
发帖数: 157 | 70 能不能请你具体演算一下?
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 唉, 你还是没明白.
: 对你说所要达到的目的来说, Term+index investment 会比IUL好得多,
| | | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 71
那是投资收益，不过也是相对而言，Term在你年老过期后没了怎么办，term在你突然
disable一两年时怎么办，如果突然发生经济危机，你正好要用钱时怎么办
所以说term+index不能解决所有的问题，如果term+index能解决所有的问题，IUL也不
会卖的越来越快，难道都靠WFG的忽悠？
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 唉, 你还是没明白.
: 对你说所要达到的目的来说, Term+index investment 会比IUL好得多,
| a**r
发帖数: 661 | 72 这都吵了十多年了，还是同样的东西。
term+index解决不了的东西，IUL就能解决的了？这不扯的么，
再说，哪种方案敢说可以解决所有的问题，要保底，要收益高，要流动性好，你当天上
真能掉馅饼阿，卖保险的都是活雷锋啊
【在 x****o 的大作中提到】
:
: 那是投资收益，不过也是相对而言，Term在你年老过期后没了怎么办，term在你突然
: disable一两年时怎么办，如果突然发生经济危机，你正好要用钱时怎么办
: 所以说term+index不能解决所有的问题，如果term+index能解决所有的问题，IUL也不
: 会卖的越来越快，难道都靠WFG的忽悠？
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 73 xlzero, 回答你的问题:
1. Term 没了怎么办?
希望你不是真以为IUL 给了你一个终生保险, 那会巨贵无比的! IUL 之所以看起来能接
受, 那是因为到后来都是你自己的cash value build up.
With Term + low cost investment, your after-tax cash value will be always
better than the IUL's cash value build up, especially this is after Term
life expiration, which is at least 20 or 30 years later!
What if I die in 5 years? Well, you will get Term payout, plus your own
investment is still yours. With IUL, you just the payout, and lose all your
cash value build up to insurers!
2. 钱多, 人傻, 速来, 再加一个欺骗朋友, that explains why IUL is selling well
within the Chinese immigrant community. | x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 74
吵了十多年，IUL越卖越多，难道不应该是越卖越完蛋么
我可没说IUL能解决TERM＋INDEX
卖保险的当然不是活雷锋，这世界没有活雷锋
TERM＋INDEX就是馅饼?
谁也没说过保险IUL就是流动性高啊，相反那钱放里面要做好２０年不动的准备
【在 a**r 的大作中提到】
: 这都吵了十多年了，还是同样的东西。
: term+index解决不了的东西，IUL就能解决的了？这不扯的么，
: 再说，哪种方案敢说可以解决所有的问题，要保底，要收益高，要流动性好，你当天上
: 真能掉馅饼阿，卖保险的都是活雷锋啊
| x****o
发帖数: 29677 | 75
your
５年后我突然残废一年，TERM能解决问题么
买了三十年TERM，过期了，我还没死，买不了任何保险了
搞INDEX没问题，当我准备用钱那两年，突然经济危机，INDEX一半没了，凉拌？
IUL卖的那么多，你觉得真是因为老中买的多？你也太高看老中了
WFG就不是老中搞的，只不过老中靠着卖POLICY的FACE VALUE高赚的多，买这东西要量
力而行，而不是每人一律都买５００K，１M 的FACE VALUE。你以前卖，是不是也都这
种FACE VALUE，从来没根据人家家庭具体情况来调整FACE VALUE？
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: xlzero, 回答你的问题:
: 1. Term 没了怎么办?
: 希望你不是真以为IUL 给了你一个终生保险, 那会巨贵无比的! IUL 之所以看起来能接
: 受, 那是因为到后来都是你自己的cash value build up.
: With Term + low cost investment, your after-tax cash value will be always
: better than the IUL's cash value build up, especially this is after Term
: life expiration, which is at least 20 or 30 years later!
: What if I die in 5 years? Well, you will get Term payout, plus your own
: investment is still yours. With IUL, you just the payout, and lose all your
: cash value build up to insurers!
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 76 "５年后我突然残废一年，TERM能解决问题么?"
IUL 能吗? 买 Term 的话, 起码你这五年里省下的钱and the investment money 可以
帮你解决点问题吧?
Term+Index investment is subject to change as you age, when you prepare for
your retirement, your index investment should shift to a more balanced and
low cost portfolio.
On the other hand, in many cases, even your Term+index investment had a 50%
drop, its cash value is still higher than your IUL cash value. Just run back
date test by yourself to see.
I am not even counting when in 5 years you really need money for emergency
purpose, the IUL money is out of reach, unless you want to pay for the hefty
penalty. I have seen too many Chinese families suffer from this (I didn't
sell to them, you know who did). | i****e
发帖数: 157 | 77 多谢redsim,我觉得你的计算make sense
如果从投资角度来看,能谈谈你对annuity的看法吗?
比如一些hybrid annuity等等,谢谢!
for
%
back
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: "５年后我突然残废一年，TERM能解决问题么?"
: IUL 能吗? 买 Term 的话, 起码你这五年里省下的钱and the investment money 可以
: 帮你解决点问题吧?
: Term+Index investment is subject to change as you age, when you prepare for
: your retirement, your index investment should shift to a more balanced and
: low cost portfolio.
: On the other hand, in many cases, even your Term+index investment had a 50%
: drop, its cash value is still higher than your IUL cash value. Just run back
: date test by yourself to see.
: I am not even counting when in 5 years you really need money for emergency
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 78 Here is my view on annuity:
1. The only one that most people really need is Immediate annuity.
It's just like Term life, it's not a if you need it or not, it is a must,
for people enter into retirement phase, in order to hedge longevity risk.
2. Here is how you do it - when you are ready to retire, when you leave your
last employer (after age 55, ideally after 59.5), you take a portion of
your 401K and rollover it to an immediate annuity product, and enjoy your
retirement time.
3. If you retire a bit earlier (before 55, and in some other cases, after
age 55), maybe a Fixed annuity product is something you could consider.
4. Forget Variable Annuity (see my blog post for the reasons):
http://www.mitbbs.com/pc/pccon_13343_275991.html
我实在不是一个合格的insurance sales, 因为both Term and Immediate Annuity都是
least commissioned products in the entire life/annuity product spectrum.
But as a consumer, that's what I would do for my own family. | r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 79 iceeve, 对不起, 没注意你提问的是从投资角度谈对annuity的看法. 现在稍微说一下:
Generally, there is NO need to pay 1.5%-2% to insurance company so they can
create an investment opportunity for you, you can get it done by yourself
and already 1.5%-2% ahead!
The principle is to avoid the accumulation phase, that's why I recommend
immediate annuity.
However, if you are quite conservative, you can consider fixed annuity (
maybe equity index annuity) which is less expensive than Variable Annuity,
but you need to shop around, because there are lots of them on the market. | i****e
发帖数: 157 | 80 resim, thank you for your answer.
Questions for your item 3:
(1)how do you think fixed annuity and hybrid annuity? Which one is better?
(2)do you think whether it's a good idea to start annuity a little earlier,
say ~age 45, to use this as a relative safe investment compare with
investing in stock/fund/bond etc.
your
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: Here is my view on annuity:
: 1. The only one that most people really need is Immediate annuity.
: It's just like Term life, it's not a if you need it or not, it is a must,
: for people enter into retirement phase, in order to hedge longevity risk.
: 2. Here is how you do it - when you are ready to retire, when you leave your
: last employer (after age 55, ideally after 59.5), you take a portion of
: your 401K and rollover it to an immediate annuity product, and enjoy your
: retirement time.
: 3. If you retire a bit earlier (before 55, and in some other cases, after
: age 55), maybe a Fixed annuity product is something you could consider.
| | | a**r
发帖数: 661 | 81 你自己说了半天“Term在你年老过期后没了怎么办，term在你突然
disable一两年时怎么办，如果突然发生经济危机，你正好要用钱时怎么办”
说得好象是term解决不了的问题 IUL都能解决似的。其实碰到这些问题
IUL的方案更糟，很多买保险的都是拿这个忽悠人，先危言耸听，再推销自己
的产品，很多人都是这么上当的。到这里吵了这么多年的你不是头一个
【在 x****o 的大作中提到】
:
: your
: ５年后我突然残废一年，TERM能解决问题么
: 买了三十年TERM，过期了，我还没死，买不了任何保险了
: 搞INDEX没问题，当我准备用钱那两年，突然经济危机，INDEX一半没了，凉拌？
: IUL卖的那么多，你觉得真是因为老中买的多？你也太高看老中了
: WFG就不是老中搞的，只不过老中靠着卖POLICY的FACE VALUE高赚的多，买这东西要量
: 力而行，而不是每人一律都买５００K，１M 的FACE VALUE。你以前卖，是不是也都这
: 种FACE VALUE，从来没根据人家家庭具体情况来调整FACE VALUE？
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 82 1) Not directly comparable, it depends on your risk tolerance and objectives
. Right now is not a good environment to consider fixed annuity (unless you
are well into your retirement and have to consider annuity). If you are
really conservative, all your money is on CD or Money market, maybe you can
consider a hybrid annuity, at least you are participating the market.
2) I am not a big fan to start annuity early, because it doesn't make sense
to pay the insurance company 1.5%-2% annually so you can participate the
stock market. You can get it done by yourself thru DCA low cost index
investment, because you don't have to worry about the short term market
fluctuation since you are still relatively young.
If you do want to dip into the water early, make sure you shop around, there
is a vast marketplace for hybrid annuity.
,
【在 i****e 的大作中提到】
: resim, thank you for your answer.
: Questions for your item 3:
: (1)how do you think fixed annuity and hybrid annuity? Which one is better?
: (2)do you think whether it's a good idea to start annuity a little earlier,
: say ~age 45, to use this as a relative safe investment compare with
: investing in stock/fund/bond etc.
:
: your
| i****e
发帖数: 157 | 83 Thanks, redsim.
From diversification point of view, if I have already put some money in high
risk stock market for gambling, some money in index for long term growth,
and still have a little left, then what I can think of is to put the left
money in CD or saving account. My question is: can I use some sorts of
hybrid annuity products to replace CD/saving account, as a relatively
flexible and conservative investment tool.
The reason I mentioned hybrid annuity, because my understanding about hybrid
annuity is that the annuity provider company takes the market downside risk
, while I may still have better return than fix annuity, of course, with the
cost of some administration fees. So I think hybrid should be less risky
than variable annuity, but overall better return than fix annuity. (maybe in
a long bear market, fix annuity might still perform better, but if
considering >10 years period time, hybrid should have better chance to
outperform. And should also be better than CD and saving account.
BTW: is there any tax related pros/cons for annuity?
If there is any hole in my understanding, please let me know. I appreciate
your opinion.
objectives
you
can
sense
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】
: 1) Not directly comparable, it depends on your risk tolerance and objectives
: . Right now is not a good environment to consider fixed annuity (unless you
: are well into your retirement and have to consider annuity). If you are
: really conservative, all your money is on CD or Money market, maybe you can
: consider a hybrid annuity, at least you are participating the market.
: 2) I am not a big fan to start annuity early, because it doesn't make sense
: to pay the insurance company 1.5%-2% annually so you can participate the
: stock market. You can get it done by yourself thru DCA low cost index
: investment, because you don't have to worry about the short term market
: fluctuation since you are still relatively young.
| r****m
发帖数: 1204 | 84 iceeve -
1) It seems to me you are thinking about where to put your emergency fund?
If yes, then obviously annuity is not a good place due to liquidity.
If not, then I wonder what objective you are trying to achieve thru this "
extra" money? If it's for longer term use, why not just put it with your
existing index investment? If it's not for longer term use, the obviously
annuity doesn't fit your purpose either, because annuity is really for
retirement use.
So, you can see, I am lost at your purpose here.
2) You forgot Hybrid annuity has a cap on your earnings, that's a major miss.
So you not only pay insurers to prevent money loss, but also give up on the
true upside.
3) For your tax question, here is another thing against annuity (for middle
class families who are well prepared for retirement) - while the growth is
tax free, when you use it, any gain is taxed as income, which presumably has
higher tax rate compared with long term capital gain if you are investing
on your own. |
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