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全部话题 - 话题: aesthetics
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r****e
发帖数: 3373
1
来,我给你贴一个。老头讲究起来真讲究,啰嗦起来真啰嗦,逗的时候真逗,恶的时候
真恶。
Playboy Interview: Vladimir Nabokov
By ALVIN TOFFLER • PLAYBOY • JANUARY 1964
Playboy: With the American publication of Lolita in 1958, your fame and
fortune mushroomed almost overnight from high repute among the literary
cognoscenti—which you had enjoyed for more than 30 years—to both acclaim
and abuse as the world-renowned author of a sensational best seller. In the
aftermath of this cause célèbre, do you ever regret having written Lolita?... 阅读全帖
r****e
发帖数: 3373
2
From the aesthetic point of view, the tapeworm is certainly an undesirable
boarder. The gravid segments frequently crawl out of a person’s anal canal,
sometimes in chains, and have been reported a source of social
embarrassment.
你读得不仔细,这段跟你的专业多少还是相关的。。
b*s
发帖数: 82482
3
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 同学们有电影推荐不?
给你找个定义吧:
A B movie is a low-budget commercial motion picture that is not definitively
an arthouse or pornographic film. In its original usage, during the Golden
Age of Hollywood, the term more precisely identified a film intended for
distribution as the less-publicized, bottom half of a double feature.
Although the U.S. production of movies intended as second features largely
ceased by the end of the 1950s, the term B movie continued to be used in the
broader sense it maintains today. In its pos... 阅读全帖
m********n
发帖数: 3558
4
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - [海选]绝对怀想
"爱情是什么?就是稍微特殊一点的友情和亲情吧" -- 一开始看觉得蛮有道理,后来
一想,这句话有点废。如果大家对爱情的理解有所不同,关键就是不同在怎么理解“特
殊”吧。
希望自己 “不断创新的追求“ 没有错。不过,在我看来,在未恋爱前对对方有个定
位,期望对方也要不断有追求,如果不是,就觉得不相与谋,这是不是有点过?个人观
点,爱情和友情的不同处,就在于爱情是不需要以这些“共同”的追求作为前提的,它
可以以各种奇怪的原因或者没有原因而发生。 当然能不能过得下去是另一回事。

随便扯一下,某些人定义的爱情的几种分类:
Eros – a passionate physical and emotional love based on aesthetic
enjoyment; stereotype of romantic love
Ludus – a love that is played as a game or sport; conquest; may have
multiple partners at once
Storge – an affectionate love that ... 阅读全帖
S*********e
发帖数: 3006
5
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 读维特根斯坦(形而上学)
不是很明白你的这篇帖子。。。你说的形而上学是Metaphysics的中文对应词吗?如果
是,Metaphysics、Epistemology(认知学)、Logic(逻辑学)三者是哲学(Philosophy)的
核心、它们彼此不同然而互相影响互相支撑;神学(Theology)、科学(Science)、伦理(
Ethics)、美学(Aesthetics)。。。是哲学分支出去的学科、或者在广义上说是应用哲
学。它们之间怎么会有冲突、或者有“逻辑得不到形而上学”这样的陈述?
“形而上”的翻译来自于日本人,直接对应于Meta(超越) + Physics(形);同时中文里
有“形而上者为道”这样的句子,是非漂亮的翻译。“形而上学”就是“道之学”一种
古雅又西方化的表达。
举一个例子:2500年前对原子的讨论属于形而上学、是哲学,而今天对原子的研究则属
于科学、不属于哲学(或者勉强算应用哲学)。
另一个例子:今天对超弦的探索很难说是科学还是哲学(形而上学),我相信将来这个领
域的研究一定会落入科学的范畴。
也就是说,形而上学是科学、美学、伦理学、神学(神学跟信仰是两回事)。。。的先声
。当对某个问题... 阅读全帖
b*s
发帖数: 82482
6
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - J.K. Rowling的新书
呵呵,问号的英文老师说:
Can 35 Million Book Buyers Be Wrong? Yes.
Taking arms against Harry Potter, at this moment, is to emulate Hamlet
taking arms against a sea of troubles. By opposing the sea, you won't end it
. The Harry Potter epiphenomenon will go on, doubtless for some time, as J.
R. R. Tolkien did, and then wane.
The official newspaper of our dominant counter-culture, The New York Times,
has been startled by the Potter books into establishing a new policy for its
not very literate book review. Rat... 阅读全帖
s*f
发帖数: 1071
7
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 旅游照片网站起名 (发包子)
我撒谎了。其实我不是想做网站,是想把以前旅游图片汇集成一本书和家人朋友分享。
我需要一个题目。我刚草草想了一段前言,我英语不好,所以希望有人替我改改。下面
是其中几张照片。
Traveling, according to Samuel Johnson, regulates imagination by reality.
Whereas photography transforms reality back into image and imagination. It
is an interesting reverse process.
Jameson observed that older modernism functioned against its society.
Postmodernism, in the age of mechanical reproduction, replicates, reproduces
and reinforces the logic of consumer capitalism.
This collection of photographs p... 阅读全帖
s*f
发帖数: 1071
8
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 旅游照片网站起名 (发包子)
这个英语能表达基本意思吧.
Traveling, according to Samuel Johnson, regulates imagination by reality.
Whereas photography transforms reality back into image and imagination. It
is an interesting reverse process.
It is ironic that Oscar Wilder tried to defend art from the banality of
capitalism with his shopping experience from Harrods and Printempts. In the
age of mechanical reproduction, exhibition value replaces cult value and
mass recreation replaces artist concentration in art all along the line.
Jameso... 阅读全帖
w******g
发帖数: 10018
9
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 汪峰和王菲离婚了
做一个问卷,desire for aesthetics。
C****a
发帖数: 7186
10
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 看到这姑凉,再也不敢自称童姥了
The uncanny valley is a hypothesis in the field of human aesthetics which
holds that when human features look and move almost, but not exactly, like
natural human beings, it causes a response of revulsion among human
observers.
哇 第一次听说 还真的是有这个感觉啊
b*s
发帖数: 82482
11
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 所以明天是个好日子~
狭隘理解mixing:
Audio mixing is the process by which multiple sounds are combined into one
or more channels. In the process, the source signals' level, frequency
content, dynamics, and panoramic position are manipulated and effects such
as reverb may be added. This practical, aesthetic, or otherwise creative
treatment is done in order to produce a mix that is more appealing to
listeners.

光是mixing没有magic的感觉啊
i***a
发帖数: 11826
12
Reception Aesthetics,大致是讲作品的空白和不确定,每个人看的感受都不同,欣赏
者需要去填补空白。如果能看出来作品要表达的真正内涵,就是欣赏了。看不出来,是
欣赏不了,或者也可以批判作者本身表达有问题。类似高山流水啦~~
generic architecture我没有认真看过,葱油饼来科普吧~:)
R******k
发帖数: 4756
13
"Both meanings of "taktisch" and "haptisch" are "nahsichtig (close-up or
close-range vision)". As to this close-up vision, Riegl himself mentions it
with the expression of "palpating (betasten)" the relief figure and ground
in a note of SK. It can be considered as an expression that presents the
mode of close-up vision as "seeing like groping".
- Ota Yoshitaka, Kyoto University, "What is 'the Haptic'?", Aesthetics No.17
(2013): 13-24

of
b*s
发帖数: 82482
14
这个是日本人穿凿的吧,英语字典都没有收

"Both meanings of "taktisch" and "haptisch" are "nahsichtig (close-up or
close-range vision)". As to this close-up vision, Riegl himself mentions it
with the expression of "palpating (betasten)" the relief figure and ground
in a note of SK. It can be considered as an expression that presents the
mode of close-up vision as "seeing like groping".
- Ota Yoshitaka, Kyoto University, "What is 'the Haptic'?", Aesthetics No.17
(2013): 13-24
of
wh
发帖数: 141625
15
前两天有个关于汪精卫的讲座,可惜没时间去听。给你抄个讲座梗概,可能空洞。可以
留意这个讲座人噢,楊治宜,princeton毕业,现在德国法兰克福大学:
http://zhiyiyang.webs.com/curriculum-vitae
Lyric Truth or Poetic Persona:
Reading Wang Zhaoming (1833 - 1944)
Monday, March 24, 2014
4:30 PM - 6:00 PM
Zhiyi Yang
Junior Professor, Department of Sinology, Goethe University of Frankfurt
Poetry and history tell two, sometimes rivaling, truths. Poetry claims to
reveal the existential, moral truth of the private person, which could
either enrich or contradict that individual’... 阅读全帖
S*********e
发帖数: 3006
16
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 为什么老外不学中文 (转载)
我拍了几张照片,可惜水平太低,很不清楚。主要是晚上光线太差。这是最清楚的一张
。。。
艾未未作品的问题是主题确实很深,但是不够“美”。同样是沉痛反思,大妈反思就成
了祥林嫂;美女反思,还没开口对方就化了。这就是aesthetics的力量。
x****d
发帖数: 1766
17
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 请教各位大神,关于爱
Eros – is a passionate physical and emotional love of wanting to
satisfy, create sexual contentment, security and aesthetic enjoyment for
each other, it also includes creating sexual security for the other by
striving to forsake options of sharing one's intimate and sexual self with
outsiders.
Ludus – is a form of love that is primarily playful, to indulge in
activities and seek to create fun and excitement for each other.
Storge – is a form of love that is affectionate that slowly d... 阅读全帖
x****d
发帖数: 1766
18
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - 请教各位大神,关于爱
Eros – is a passionate physical and emotional love of wanting to
satisfy, create sexual contentment, security and aesthetic enjoyment for
each other, it also includes creating sexual security for the other by
striving to forsake options of sharing one's intimate and sexual self with
outsiders.
Ludus – is a form of love that is primarily playful, to indulge in
activities and seek to create fun and excitement for each other.
Storge – is a form of love that is affectionate that slowly d... 阅读全帖
l*****l
发帖数: 5909
19
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - Billy Corgan talking about Kurt Cobain
Life was very different in the early Nineties, the last gasp to date of
American rock as a generationally binding, transformative force. Corgan,
whose on-off (now very off) relationship with Courtney Love preceded Kurt
Cobain’s, was there for all grunge’s grubby glory years, which Cobain’s
1994 suicide ended. Pearl Jam’s Eddie Vedder once told me he felt survivor
’s guilt afterwards.
“That would be Eddie Vedder,” Corgan snorts. “Somehow he makes it about
him even when it’s about somebody else! I... 阅读全帖
t*******h
发帖数: 2744
20
来自主题: LeisureTime版 - Noise Poetry: An Interview with Thurston Moore
Beatdom
ABOUTSUBMISSION GUIDELINESBUY
Home/Beatdom Content/Noise Poetry: An Interview with Thurston Moore
Thurston Moore reading his poetry at Naropa University's Summer Writing
Program, 2011.
Noise Poetry: An Interview with Thurston Moore
Share
0
0
0
As an MFA fiction student at the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics
at Naropa University (one of the longest, most consistently-made-fun-of
school names ever), I was fortunate enough to be brought face-to-face with
some of the most legendar... 阅读全帖
A******1
发帖数: 786
21
From their own website
"Overall, a great idea. The pickups are nice. I replaced the bridge pickup
with a Gibson 490-T from an S-G for an "angrier" tone. The components are
average; tuning heads are ok, neck feels good, whammy bar and trem are great
. Now, the problem: Bridge and Saddles. I pulled the guitar out og the box (
brand new), had a set up. Within 2 hours of playing, 4 of the saddles "sunk"
to where the strings were literally on the fretboard. Luckily, this is at
home, not a gig. So now... 阅读全帖
b****s
发帖数: 1300
22
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 挖个小坑,如何超过大师。。。
Thanks for the link! I don't think what I said was in conflict with the
article you linked here. I wasn't denying that photography is a kind of art
on its own. In fact, any sort of form of expression that can cause an
aesthetic and emotional resonance of the viewers is an art.
What I meant to address was that photography, though is art, does not
contain many artistic elements, as compared to other artistic forms, such as painting and music.
yo
发帖数: 2534
23
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 贴片儿吧 - 两个岛屿
不太同意你对玛格南的描述,我也没有仔细追求玛格南风格,毕竟街头摄影对短期旅游
来说不太合适。如果必须要追求点儿什么的话,我追求的感觉是把快照审美(snapshot
aesthetic)代入无表情风格(deadpan photography),有没有做到就另说了。:p
m******1
发帖数: 19713
24
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 贴片儿吧 - 两个岛屿
赶紧google了一下snapshot aesthetic和deadpan photography,看明白了定义了,但
是没有深刻的理解。
玛格南我才认识了20分钟,描述的完全错误也是有可能的。但是像森山(这个是我前天
才认识的)和马格南,都给我一种很强烈的感情上的冲击力,都很喜欢。我觉得这种类
型的摄影都有很强烈的人文因素在里边,不是靠技术好坏来评价的。你的照片显然也是
在用写实手法追求一种人文的东西,我觉得这是你和马格南的共同点,但是我就是觉得
缺乏冲击力。

snapshot
e********b
发帖数: 223
25
snapshot aesthetic,在随意和刻意之间走钢丝
l***a
发帖数: 5114
26
嗯,我的理解是,form很重要,但是content更重要。关于多重要算重要,”见仁见智
“ :P
原文里也说了form很重要,需要平衡两者来着。。。。
原文:One of the famous quotes by Garry Winogrand is “Every photograph is a
battle of form versus content. The good ones are on the border of failure.
” As I wrote in my previous article on Winogrand, an effective street
photograph is a combination of strong form and content. But what is more
important? Petersen shares some of his ideas:
“My way of approaching photography is more – I don’t care so much about
the form. Perh... 阅读全帖
l***a
发帖数: 5114
27
嗯,我的理解是,form很重要,但是content更重要。关于多重要算重要,”见仁见智
“ :P
原文里也说了form很重要,需要平衡两者来着。。。。
原文:One of the famous quotes by Garry Winogrand is “Every photograph is a
battle of form versus content. The good ones are on the border of failure.
” As I wrote in my previous article on Winogrand, an effective street
photograph is a combination of strong form and content. But what is more
important? Petersen shares some of his ideas:
“My way of approaching photography is more – I don’t care so much about
the form. Perh... 阅读全帖
a*f
发帖数: 5682
28
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 请教,这张照片好在哪里?
我几年前第一次看到这张照片的时候也有类似的问题。好在我是在Sally Eauclaire写
的‘The New Color Photography’书里看到的。
她在书里有比较的介绍。我就扫描一下供大家看看
Of the principal color photographic formalists, Stephen
Shore has most successfully adapted Evans’s objectivity
and aesthetic autonomy. Yet unlike Evans, who so ably
absorbed the significance and sensuousness of his sub.
jects, recognizing the potent ambiguities in the real, Shore
avoids mythic possibilities for purely pictorial meaning.
Whether photographing deserted intersections, dirt roads... 阅读全帖
m******1
发帖数: 19713
29
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 又一堆杂片
完全看不惯,只是从Visual Aesthetics的角度喜欢 it looks pleasant to my eyes.
a********l
发帖数: 39524
30
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 用老旁轴和过期胶卷照的几张
let me offer my diplomatic response: i am sure they are genuine beauties to
those with the aesthetic eyes for them, i just haven't yet fully grown a
pair of those eyes. getting there though.
a*f
发帖数: 5682
31
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - Alex Webb Workshop的报告
德叔自己应该还没有特别明确的方向,但他有些片子很有Snapshot aesthetic的味道,
也有些片子有Alex Webb的构图感。
l***a
发帖数: 5114
32
这paper写得还真不错,从实验设计来讲,非常周密。。。。谢谢LZ分享。 另外,这篇
论文的涉及的,并不是绘画全部,也不是现代绘画艺术的全部,那只是现代艺术一个分
支而已 —— ”抽象表现主义“。
补充个Discussion....
Discussion
These findings challenge the common claim that abstract expressionist art is
indistinguishable from (and no better than) art made by children. Despite
the fact that participants did not select the artists’ works 100% of the
time, even adults untrained in the visual arts were able to distinguish
abstract works by professional artists—who have been vetted by the
gatekeepe... 阅读全帖
yo
发帖数: 2534
33
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 我比较喜欢的摄影师
I'm not a fan of Terry Richardson, although I can appreciate his aesthetics
and popularity, it may not work for every subject, but if you are shooting
these already beautiful models, the viewers will be attracted to the photo
regardless of the technical shortcomings, going against the perfect image
can make the photos seem more accessible and spontaneous...
l*y
发帖数: 21010
34
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 我比较喜欢的摄影师
有道理

aesthetics
k*****e
发帖数: 1235
35
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 我比较喜欢的摄影师
换句话说,也就拍名星才有效。
把名人拍成trashy是艺术,
把普通人拍成trashy —— 那就是真的trashy... LOL

aesthetics
a*f
发帖数: 5682
36
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 华盛顿中国民俗节随拍
好多大光圈的。喜欢20和27。如果我没猜错,你就是对着人脸中央对焦然后按快门,完
全没有构图。 不过反而有了snapshot aesthetic的味道,有看头。
l***a
发帖数: 5114
37
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 上点杂七杂八的。。。
一针见血啊~~~ 谢谢你的品论,同意同意。 找到自己的Aesthetic是我目前特别纠结的
一件事儿,老在纠结走得近还是走得远,随性还是端庄,直白还是含蓄。 看来还是得
再过很久一阵才能找到自己的路线。
a*f
发帖数: 5682
38
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - Contemporary Oligarchy
The main flaw of this article, it seems to me, is that the author confused
his opinion with facts. He derived his rationale based on these personal
opinions as if they are facts. One example is his claim that art community
is "biased against art solely founded in aesthetics". Another is "art for
art's sake".
These opinions are probably formed from his own casual observations rather
than thorough studies of the subjects, which if he did, might have
given him very different views.
a*f
发帖数: 5682
39
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - Stephen Shore 本月初的对话
我说的subtle还不完全是lemma说的和yo那种乍看很随意其实很formal的片子。主要是
感觉他的form和颜色对比不再那么明显了。
yo那种snapshot aesthetic也是在艺术史里有传统的,看看Manet, Degas, 和
Caillebotte. (当然他们也是受摄影影响)
了解一下他们和前人的不同,应该会帮助你理解这个传统。
l***a
发帖数: 5114
40
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - [推荐] 一组中国的旧照片
是不是因为这种照片都很neutral? 现在还专门要秉持deadpan aesthetic呢.
P.S.我觉得老照片就像在时间里取了个sample,放在一起看就很有意思。。。
l***a
发帖数: 5114
41
就是和照镜子一样啊,60x200cm 。。。。这个好像是不用底片的,"silver gelatine
reversal paper" 难道就是一次成像啦?
THE IMAGOGRAMM
»In times of unrestrained duplication, this term seems like a
provocation: A unicum.« – this is how the “Süddeutsche Zeitung”
describes the phenomenon which other people simply call the spiritual
rebirth of photography: the IMAGOgram. Each step of its development is art
– starting with the IMAGO camera, which surprises the user with a true-
sided reflection! This is how the IMAGOgram consistent... 阅读全帖
a*f
发帖数: 5682
42
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 2014 总结 中央公园/东村
不少摄影师都反复提到器材对构图的影响,拿着中幅必然左右端详,我一般从看到一个
motif,到最后按下快门要5-10分钟,选好点后取景器里也要看个1-2分钟。 p&s拍起来
感觉就完全不一样,抬手就是一张。
我觉得街拍讲究的应该是snapshot aesthetic,街上几何图形太简单(横评竖直), 如
果认真构图必然给人以僵硬死板的感觉。但我有个用眼平snapshop机拍摄的问题,相机
位置太高,拍人物的时候要么向下倾斜,要么上面留太多空间,这两种对我来说都不是
很理想。
vivian maier 用腰平,看起来就很舒服,我自己在日本用腰平拍摄也很舒服,但这都
是中幅腰平,没法snapshot。 所以我喜欢摇头机,可以在腰平位置盲拍(顶上有水平
仪)。但摇头机主要是临场感,也缺乏snapshot的感觉。这方面大家可有啥心得?
尤其是yo,用snapshot相机很久了.
a*f
发帖数: 5682
43
来自主题: PhotoForum版 - 关于formalism的问题

其实一般评论时大多只说一张照片比较formal,不怎么说你这个是formalism。而且也
并非不注重内容,只是对形式比较追求。
看作品时只看form也被称为formalism倒挺make sense.
我也看到不少称shore formalism的说法。
摘抄new color photography里关于shore的讨论。kaleeg你如果还没读过这本的话,是
时候了。
“Of the principal color photographic formalists, Stephen Shore has most
successfully adapted Evan’s objectivity and aesthetic autonomy. Yet unlike
Evans, who so ably absorbed the significance and sensuousness of his
subjects, recognizing the potent ambiguities in the real, Shore avoids
mythic possibilities fo... 阅读全帖
a********l
发帖数: 39524
44
来自主题: PhotoGear版 - 今日头牌
the following content includes graphic images some viewers may find
disturbing/distasteful. aesthetic discretion is advised. click at your own
risk.
http://www.jiaoyou8.com/friends_info?action=user_info&login_id=skyisblue
a***a
发帖数: 40617
45
来自主题: PhotoGear版 - 围观这个x100轮。。。
Long time Canon user. First time Fuji user. No regrets with X100!
Being sick and tired of lugging around my Canon DSLR when on vacation trips,
the X100 is a godsend. I am absolutely in love with this camera and I'm
itching to try this on weddings (not as a primary camera of course . It has
its quirks but nothing that I can think of as a deal breaker. I've used many
Canon cameras and the excitement I felt for the X100 is comparable to the
one I got with the 5D MKII (say what you want about its au... 阅读全帖
y*****d
发帖数: 4451
46
来自主题: PhotoGear版 - god doctors, a question
learn from Henry's in Canada, the following disclaimer comes with every
single second hand lens in their ebay website:
CONDITION:
This used lens is in great aesthetic condition, showing some light signs of
wear. There are a few light scuffs and a few handling marks on the lens
barrel. There is a hint of finish wear to the hood mount bayonet. The glass
is clean, free of scuffs, haze or fungus. As with most used lenses, there
are a few dust particles inside the optics - these will not affect your
... 阅读全帖
z****6
发帖数: 10776
47
为什么没有用过wide?
Arbus seems to have first worked with a meterless Nikon F, but looking at
the contact sheets provided, she shot nearly entire rolls with every shot in
portrait orientation. Landscape is pretty well the default orientation, so
I can only guess from the number of portrait orientation shots and prints
that Arbus "saw" something compositionally that led her to make that choice
- something I am guessing that had something to do with shooting people (who
tend to be vertical unless sleepin... 阅读全帖
a********l
发帖数: 39524
48
you have aesthetically matured.
a**t
发帖数: 402
49
所谓尼康黄,索尼黄,室内灯光黄都是照片白平衡没有调好。下面的用lightroom调照
片白平衡的教程很有用,专治各种白平衡漂移。以前在水族馆拍的照片,因为室内照明
的问题,照片都是蓝蓝的一片,调一下白平衡,所有的色彩就恢复了。
注:照片里最好有白色的东西做参照物,比如衣服,饰物,即使是很少的一点点。
https://digital-photography-school.com/adjusting-white-balance-in-lightroom/
Adjusting White Balance in Lightroom
A Post By: Helen Bradley
Lightroom white balance opener
Lightroom has a set of tools that you can use to adjust white balance in
your images. To see these at work open an image in the Develop module. At
the top of your Basic panel are ... 阅读全帖
l*y
发帖数: 21010
50
来自主题: Rock版 - bernard sumner interview 1994
www.jonsavage.com/film
Bernard Sumner
[interview, April 1994]
Bernard onstage
Bernard Albrecht Sumner
I first met Ian at a gig at the Electric Circus. It might have been the
Anarchy tour, it might have been The Clash, or one of them punk groups. Ian
was with another lad called Ian, and they both had donkey jackets, and Ian
had “HATE” written on the back of his donkey jacket. I remember liking him
. He seemed pretty nice, but we didn’t talk to him that much. I just
remembered him. Later on, about... 阅读全帖
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