L****n
发帖数: 490 | 1 My vpip is around 12-13 which is probably too tight.
When the table is tight, one should play a lot looser. Maybe I should boost
my vpip to 18%+, see how it goes. Right now, I pretty much only make 1-2bb/
100. |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 2 fryking is a lot tighter than he claim to be. i run 12 7 with my vpip. i am
consistently running above 3+bb/100 hand. |
|
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 4 seems players/flop is less than average vpip. any idea?
tyvm |
|
h******g
发帖数: 100 | 5 大概一个多月前开始重新捡起online poker since black friday, mainly play NL10
on carbon, doing pretty well for about 10K hands average 30BB/100，知道肯定
持久不下去然后今天就被搞死了，下面5手牌出现在大约一小时的200手内：
Merge - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
MP: 70.3 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
MP+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
MP+2: 81.8 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 7.84, 3Bet Preflop: 2.22, Hands: 103)
CO: 86.2 BB (VPIP: 77.27, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
BTN: 95.5 BB (VPIP... 阅读全帖 |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 6 我来胡扯两句我自己理解的6 max 和fr 的区别.
1) preflop range: Many people think they should play "looser" for 6 max
than fr, but the fact is that even if we play the exact same range like fr
for 6 max, we are going to have a higher vpip for 6 max. Why? If you play
fr, just open your HM and look at your vpip by position, bb, sb, button, co,
mp and ep. Normally for a decent player, you will have much higher vpip for
button, co, but extremely tight for ep. If you filter out the ep and
average the vpip, you will h... 阅读全帖 |
|
t******b
发帖数: 56 | 7 一般玩家分为loose passive, bad aggressive 以及 good aggressive三种
类型。前一种可以通过他的vpip, pfr以及aggression factor容易认出。后两种
乍一看不易分别。一种常用的区分方法是看他们的vpip和w$wsf这两个参数的乘积。
vpip是自愿投入pot的几率，这个参数越小意味着玩家越tight。
w$wsf是看到flop之后的won几率，这个参数越大意味着玩家post flop skill越高
通常来说，vpip越小，w$wsf越大，可以理解为tight aggressive style, 只玩
premium hands。
vpip越高，相应的w$wsf应该越小，因为玩的牌多了，flop hit几率下降。一般
loose passive player喜欢fit or fold, w$wsf自然不会高。
但是一个好的loose aggressive player, 他的vpip虽然高于常人，w$wsf却不会
很低，他会通过对手的举动来判断对方的hand range，采取相应的对策来maximize
profit.
当你 |
|
r****r
发帖数: 1394 | 8 get a lucky turn. guess defensive bets are ok?
***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Poker Stars)
$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, January 06, 11:17:25 ET 2011
Table Thalia V (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $39.42 USD ) - VPIP: 14, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 2.3, Hands:
180
Seat 2: Player2 ( $30.85 USD ) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 20, 3B: 7, AF: 2.3, Hands:
11400
Seat 3: Player3 ( $25.00 USD ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 14, 3B: 4, AF: 3.2, Hands:
327
Seat 4: Hero ( $33.07 USD ) - VPIP: 1... 阅读全帖 |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 9 Poker Stars $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - [url=http://www.handconverter.com/hands/2351045]View hand 2351045[/url]
[url=http://www.deucescracked.com/?referrer=converter_dc]DeucesCracked Poker Videos[/url] [url=http://www.handconverter.com]Hand History Converter[/url]
BTN: $25.00 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 14, 3B: 3, AF: 1.1, Hands: 573
SB: $50.82 - VPIP: 33, PFR: 29, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 21
BB: $31.04 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 17, 3B: 6, AF: 3.5, Hands: 301
Hero (UTG): $35.30 - VPIP: 28, PFR: 23, 3B: 6, A... 阅读全帖 |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 10 Poker Stars $25.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - [url=http://www.handconverter.com/hands/2351050]View hand 2351050[/url]
[url=http://www.deucescracked.com/?referrer=converter_dc]DeucesCracked Poker Videos[/url] [url=http://www.handconverter.com]Hand History Converter[/url]
BTN: $70.17 - VPIP: 28, PFR: 17, 3B: 25, AF: 1.0, Hands: 36
SB: $19.90 - VPIP: 34, PFR: 15, 3B: 4, AF: 1.0, Hands: 85
BB: $28.59 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 12, 3B: 3, AF: 3.2, Hands: 566
UTG: $16.72 - VPIP: 9, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, H... 阅读全帖 |
|
y**t
发帖数: 205 | 11 vpip可以大概表示起手牌的范围。vpip越小，这个人越紧。一般vpip=10说明他只玩55+
/A8s+/ATo+。你可以去下个sitNgo wizard,那里面有个图，可以大概看看vpip和起手牌
的关系。
另外几个我就不知道能表示啥含义了。就知道pr高的比较凶。 |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 12 It really depends on a lot of stuff. Early Tourney, I will play normal game,
vpip: 15%, pfr: 12%.
Late stage: still depends on table dynamics, if someone 3bet you a lot, I
have to tight up.(vpip: 12%, pfr:12%) If I can run table up, I can loose it
up.(vpip: 70%, pfr:60%).
So, hard to say, usually the lower the buyin, the more likely I can run
table up.
I remember at that tourney I run around vpip:80%, pfr: 80% on the money
bubble. |
|
h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 13 刚装了holdem manager，读了windstormm转的几篇2+2的文章，看来数据分析不亚于PhD
paper啊。。
我玩得很少，都是NL25 rush，发现上次玩是今年3月的事情了。。只有4.8k手（盈利差
不多8个buyin, or 17bb/100，但allin EV只有2-3个buyin左右，应该算比较lucky）
现在sample量当然太小了。个人感觉要降低vpip到16左右，pfr到11-12左右，3bet到4
左右，flop cbet到60%左右。但4bet和call cbet呢在多少比较合适呢？
不过我对是否要降低vpip以及提高pfr/vpip还有疑虑，貌似nl25还是可以多limpin一些
的。
vpip: 20 (decrease to 16?)
pfr: 10 (increase to 12?)
aggr: 2.x (increase to ??)
3bet: ～2.9 (increase to 4?)
4bet: ～0.2 (increase to ??)
call 3bet: ～25% (how about this?)
... 阅读全帖 |
|
h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 14 Those were really unlucky hands and you couldn't do much about it. I have
several other questions though:
1. your vpip/pfr is 12.2/7.4, and TWSD% is very high (33%) due to your tight
preflop action I guess. does this work at NL100 rush? windstormm obviously
plays much looser and more aggressive. I wonder if both styles still work at
this level.
2. with such low vpip/pfr, we expect to see low variance, right? has that
been the case for you? personally I only saw max of 2 buyins downswing (but
I o... 阅读全帖 |
|
y**t
发帖数: 205 | 15 vpip可以大概表示起手牌的范围。vpip越小，这个人越紧。一般vpip=10说明他只玩55+
/A8s+/ATo+。你可以去下个sitNgo wizard,那里面有个图，可以大概看看vpip和起手牌
的关系。
另外几个我就不知道能表示啥含义了。就知道pr高的比较凶。 |
|
h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 16 Gosh I guess I'm too loose with 19/14 then.. I thought I was tight enough..
I actually analyzed why I got this stat. I raise a lot more often on CO and
button, I remember around 35% on button. So sometimes I do see blinds
playing back at me and I am wondering if I should raise less or call 3bet
more. I've been trying folding more for now.
And I think the gap between vpip and pfr is ok. When you cold call a raise,
it's recorded as vpip but not pfr. Most of my gaps are from blinds or late
position... 阅读全帖 |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 17 just a thought, when you play with vpip of 11 or less, shoving KK preflop might not be as +EV as shoving KK with a vpip of 20%.
I used to play vpip of 11 7. I felt that every time someone 3 bet me, they have AA KK. well, of course, what do you expect someone 3 bet a nit with? Later when I start to open up my game a bit, people start to calling my 5 bet shove with 9s and 10s, the game just becomes that much easier.
For me personally, I almost never fold KK preflop. This is one of those rare tim... 阅读全帖 |
|
p******a
发帖数: 975 | 18 Assuming your VPIP against a reasonable tag is about 20, while against a
passive fish is about 50, to get an overall vpip of 42, the tag vs fish
ratio on
the network you play needs to be about 1:3.
Since you play 6max, that means usually the table you play only have one tag
good
player besides you.(Other times you are the only good player.) And you can
always find 4 fishes playing at your 6max
table that you can beat with VPIP=50 !!!!!
Which network are you current playing at? I'm going to switc... 阅读全帖 |
|
p******a
发帖数: 975 | 19 0.5/1 还是不要轻易尝试了，ACR的水平还是相当高的，等你打赢了0.25/0.5再说吧。
建议你从0.1/0.25开始玩，更低的级别除非你去玩单挑，否则rake太高，你是打不赢网
站的。而且低级别乱打的人比较多，对新人提高技术没太大帮助。
如果你是从PT3的网站上下的新版本的话，里面直接有winning network的。用这个就行
了。
pt3的各个数据的含义可以到他们网站去查，如果你刚开始接触扑克，那么关注这两个
数据就行了vpip和pfr。尽量做到vpip<20,vpip-pfr<3。然后postflop该fold就fold，
尽量value bet，don't do anything fancy。打赢0.1/0.25还是很容易的。
我看leatherass的数据其实也就是很solid的玩法。所以其实等你真正掌握tight
agressive打法以后，打赢1/2都应该问题不大。 |
|
c***f
发帖数: 52 | 20 背景：主要打30buyin的Heads Up Hyper Turbo和6 Max Hyper Turbo的比赛。HU大概55
%是赢的，6MAX，25%1st finish, 13%2nd finish。所以这两个game都是赢钱的。昨天
打了一个小时，赢了大概$150，然后就准备休息了。在YouTube上随便看看，结果看到
一个cash game捕鱼的视频，然后悲剧就发生了。。。。
鱼嘛，VPiP高是一个比较明显的特征，然后不会fold top or second pair,不会想对方
的range。我试过raise bluff on cbet，绝对不work，后来就只play AT+ TT+的hand。
我玩的是100NL 6max，我的VPiP一直在15以下。
过了一会一只鱼UTG raise 3BB
Hero AJo behind him called
Another fish called as well
Flop: A62 rainbow
没有Flash，straight的可能
UTG cbet half pot.
I called knowing that if I ra... 阅读全帖 |
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p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 21 pt里面有vpip,pr,af,w$sd什么的,这些数据大致也了解了一下定义,可是还是不清楚在
什么范围代表什么含义,比如vpip=10,20,30,40,50, 说明什么呢? 谁能给大致解释一下
? 给一个范围参考参考呢, for NL 和 limit的. 谢谢拉,包子悬赏! |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 22
44.4
vpip: 33.3, prf:24.5
43.7.
vpip:30.7, prf:23.1 |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 23 ID: NeverScaredB
Vpip: 25%
fpr: 19%
aggr: 3.2
steal blinds attempt: 55%
short table:
vpip: 36%
fpr: 28%
aggr: 7
steal blinds attempt: 62% |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 24 play cash only, usually 6 tables, sometimes 8 tables.
I am a newbie compare with yanjiegou2007,
but recently runing pretty good, winning 60buyins(but pretty small stack, 30
bucks only, 60bb, 0.25/.5 6max) in 5 days.
In the beginning, I play super LAG, vpip is 44%, pfr is 33%, AF is 2.8
but lose money.
Recently, I change to TAG, VPIP is 32%, PFR 22%, AF is 2.2
become winner.
Still do not figure out which style is better.
Will try 12 table MTT or sng next time after my (cash game)bonus is cleared, |
|
h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 25 一来没时间，二来发现PTR排名上beat 99%的人一年也没赢多少，所以poker就成了
leisure time的纯消遣了。前几天download了HM看了一下，自己最近一共只玩了4000来
手，基本都是rush。虽说不够统计数量，但发现那个VPIP够高的（20%），3Bet%似乎太
低，Agg是3.2，是不是还算合适？另外就是EV adjusted的数字($12)和实际winning($
121)偏差较大，让我意识到：如果按我的玩法，长期只能break even，很可能是VPIP太
高外加3bet不足，是么？
谁能介绍一下重要的指标及理想范围么？ |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 26 yjj, what is your vpip like throughout the whole tournament?
what is your vpip in a tourney in general? |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 27 vpip was bad. preflop and post flop are both loose passive. too many hands
go to show down. showdown winning % was not good. Aggression was low. post
flop was probably worse than preflop vpip alone. |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 28 I was in a rush and did not finish. I want to add a few more points.
The advantage of having a tight starting range is very obvious and it should
give you a steady and good winrate at microstake or vs some opponents at
small stake, but why does it not work as well when you level up facing
tougher opponents? It is because people will adjust towards your range post
flop if they are good regs. FCF also pointed out before that the easiest
player to play against is people with nittiest vpip because t... 阅读全帖 |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 29 What did you play before rush?
I think it is very good to have 3+bb/100 hand on NL400. Your vpip is close
to mine around 12.5%. I don't think there is anything wrong with playing
tight as long as villians still give you action. Due to your image of vpip,
i think controlling pot size is probably the best post flop when you have
over pair and top pair. The key to play a very strong range preflop to use its show down value. |
|
p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 30 啥区别? 我第一次用,不是很懂,就看到他说我,你vpip 太低! raise 不够! EP open
too much! ,光step 1就3个,总共7个step,这些算leak还是potential leak?
它貌似要20% 以上vpip才算好,哎,俺这种nit很不适宜啊
btw,我不make profit啊,我天天donate,欢迎大家来赚我的钱 |
|
t********t
发帖数: 5415 | 31 hands count是每一手都算，不论位置和preflop play。
fold blinds不算vpip。如果看hand history的话你会注意到vpip hand如果输掉是红色
背景，而fold blind的loss是普通颜色的。 |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 32 Your vpip is so high.
I know my way is not optimal.
If I go up limits, I will drop my vpip significantly.
P.S.
I find it is more profitable to play TAG in lower limits.
very nice win rate |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 33 he plays so well. He knows ICM, and steals well and take stab with
aggression well. I guess his vpip is around 40%, pfr is around 33%.
whomikeB's vpip is 52%, pfr is 33%.
like |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 34 347 手.. even your vpip probably hasn't converged yet.. but the per/vpip
looks ratio looks good. |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 35 hmmm.
VPIP = 15% is not that loose, considering sometimes my 3bet percentage is 15
%. My vpip is around 28% in rush games, but I know it only works in NL25.
leaks
15 |
|
h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 36 也不知道有没有这个词。数据虽说不是万能的，但一般人还是有个prefer的范围，在向
那个范围improve的时候，自己的数据有一定滞后性。
举个简单的例子，如果你flop cbet 70%, turn cbet 35%的话，别人就会老float你的
cbet，即使你注意double barrel，效果也不会很好（因为flop cbet很多时候还是得拿
下才算+EV）。而数据的更新是缓慢的，难道得做一阵子忍者神龟，只bet有货的？那又
会直接影响到VPIP/PFR等其他数据。
VPIP/PFR也差不多，如果现在是19/12，提升到20/17还是要花一点时间的。
不过初期这个影响应该不大，别人只有你百来手数据，本身也不可靠。 |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 37 In terms of opening range, I think any vpip can make you money, but you will make money differently with different vpip. You play 12 8, you HAVE TO pot control with over pair tptk. 24 23? You can probably take a whole stack with TPGK (of course your agro factor matters too but still). So knowing your image and how to play with your stats is the real science. When you are at NL100 or above, i think it is very important to start thinking about this to have a good profit. But at NL50? You can pro... 阅读全帖 |
|
p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 38 my vpip is one of lowest in Eletro, but I kept got 3 bet by hands like AK,
AQ , even like QT. and when I shoved , they almost never fold AK. Maybe they
think my late pos range are quite wild.( I open any pair, 67s+, AT+, KJ+,
JTs+ in late pos) I got 4 bet quite often by AK or QQ. Only some reg use
these stat. Most player do not even have tracking software. If you play
Electro, you will find out most ppl play AK like AA. Folding KK just lost
too much equality. But I still play QQ like a drawin... 阅读全帖 |
|
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 39 你怎么还在纠结live和on-line的区别？ 在网上你对vpip 10 8 和vpip 24 20 的打法
也不会以样啊， live game 也是同理。 不同对手range必然不同，但对对手不同range
的调整是大同小异。
dch1010 (Jim) 的大作中提到: 】
看来MM老师在live上又更上了一层楼啊，围棋哥说的是level 1 2 3只能是一级克一级
否则基本上会死的比窦娥还冤
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.28 |
|
d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 40 in previous 20 hands, what was hero's pfr/vpip?
what was villain's pfr/vpip? Any show down?
I think it does matter.
In average situation, i would fold.
Because Check/raise in such a wet board usually means bottom 2+ and has a
very low fold equity.
You only want to c villain's big pairs with flush draw or a combo draw hand,
which still have a good equity against you. |
|
p******a
发帖数: 975 | 41 嗯，rake应该是和VPIP成正比的
所以一个VPIP30的人打一桌的rake大概和一个vpip15的人打两桌相当。但是vpip低的话
postflop decision就简单很多，可以打更多的桌子 |
|
p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 42 pt里面有vpip,pr,af,w$sd什么的,这些数据大致也了解了一下定义,可是还是不清楚在
什么范围代表什么含义,比如vpip=10,20,30,40,50, 说明什么呢? 谁能给大致解释一下
? 给一个范围参考参考呢, for NL 和 limit的. 谢谢拉,包子悬赏! |
|
y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 43
44.4
vpip: 33.3, prf:24.5
43.7.
vpip:30.7, prf:23.1 |
|
M****0
发帖数: 106 | 44 【 以下文字转载自 TexasHoldem 讨论区 】
发信人: TheBigSlick (Ivan), 信区: TexasHoldem
标 题: 炒股和打牌
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri May 18 01:47:52 2012, 美东)
最近闲的无聊，去股版潜水比较多。不是去找小道消息，纯粹是冲着股版的娱乐价值去
的。不能不说看看股票的众牛鬼蛇神赢钱时沾沾自喜 BSO，输钱后鬼哭狼嚎的样子，还
是能给单调的生活带来不少乐趣的。
一些随想：
和任何与钱有关系的游戏一样，人们倾向于 BSO 自己的盈利，在输钱的时候大多数选
择木鸡。股市涨的时候活跃的那些 ID，大牛们，在大盘回调时大多都销声匿迹。很多
还能喊亏废了的，其实大多数并没有亏很多，或者是小账户。
炒股和打牌其实是互通的，就我个人来说，4 年的打牌经验给了我炒股很多启发，其中
“纪律”和“耐心”是最关键的两条。
炒股和打牌一样，任何一种 style 都能赢钱。但股版的青蛙和牌桌上的鱼的确有一些
很有趣的共性：
1. 动的太多: 青蛙们恨不得天天 trade，每分钟都 trade。觉得有 cash position ... 阅读全帖 |
|
b********s
发帖数: 272 | 45 【 以下文字转载自 TexasHoldem 讨论区 】
发信人: TheBigSlick (Ivan), 信区: TexasHoldem
标 题: 炒股和打牌
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri May 18 01:47:52 2012, 美东)
最近闲的无聊，去股版潜水比较多。不是去找小道消息，纯粹是冲着股版的娱乐价值去
的。不能不说看看股票的众牛鬼蛇神赢钱时沾沾自喜 BSO，输钱后鬼哭狼嚎的样子，还
是能给单调的生活带来不少乐趣的。
一些随想：
和任何与钱有关系的游戏一样，人们倾向于 BSO 自己的盈利，在输钱的时候大多数选
择木鸡。股市涨的时候活跃的那些 ID，大牛们，在大盘回调时大多都销声匿迹。很多
还能喊亏废了的，其实大多数并没有亏很多，或者是小账户。
炒股和打牌其实是互通的，就我个人来说，4 年的打牌经验给了我炒股很多启发，其中
“纪律”和“耐心”是最关键的两条。
炒股和打牌一样，任何一种 style 都能赢钱。但股版的青蛙和牌桌上的鱼的确有一些
很有趣的共性：
1. 动的太多: 青蛙们恨不得天天 trade，每分钟都 trade。觉得有 cash position ... 阅读全帖 |
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t***k
发帖数: 57 | 47 在这个论坛潜水几天，和大家打声招呼。
本人过去打limit game and sng, 现在主要打nl 6max cash，2/4-5/10, 3-4 tables.
周末play some tournaments also, like sunday million etc.
我给大家贡献一点我打6max nl心得，就是table selection. 不是每个桌子都是profit
的。所以我玩得桌，都必须至少有一个菜鸟（玩的loose) ，就是vpip （voluntarily
put $ into the pot）一般在35% 以上， 要做到这点平时一般我datamine(数据收集）
， 然后上桌前，我一般就知道75%的对手的分格，知己知彼，百战不殆！
我现在的2/4 nl 6max, profit 7.ptbb/100=14bb/100, 以上这点起了关键的作用，过
去我1/2在不注重table selection的时候也只有5ptbb
大家好运! |
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y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 48 1. You check his hand history, what hand has he played, in what position,
and how did he play?
2. You check his records on sharkscope for sng
OPR for MTT
3. Using software, PT, or tournament indicator. VPIP, aggression factor. |
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m*****i
发帖数: 1873 | 49 VPIP 20, preflop raise 12,
agg is 2.6,winning 8bb/100 |
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y********n
发帖数: 2063 | 50 I still think our game skill is not that good. I watched a bunch of good
players online games, they can go very very deep in tournament. Who knows
what card they have, usually they push, push, then others fold.
For example, I tracked a guy named mordi20, whose vpip is 25%, pfr is 19%,
aggr: 4. Steal blind attempt:55%. Flop seen,win rate:56%. Win at showdown rate:51%
for full table tournament play. Type should be loose and super aggressor.
If you watch his play, push, push, push, then others fol |
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