|
w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 2 这个说到点子上了。
those
to
generation
on |
|
w*********e
发帖数: 6093 | 3 自以为懂民主爱民主的老将们不过是屁股决定脑袋的另一边而已。 |
|
x****h
发帖数: 348 | 4 什么叫扭曲，什么叫不扭曲？历史是两部分，历史事实加历史评价，两者千万不可混淆
。以你们反扭曲的激愤心
态，恐怕比党的私货还多。我们的问题是历史评价单元化，不要乱放扭曲的炮 |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 5 Unfortunately we do not think he did any so called "great things". You asked
too little from a so called "great leader" but too much from an average
teacher.
LZ
for
picture |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 6 Marxism is just one of those theories and human society develops without
manmade theories. I am not sure why you still hold these opinions about
ranking and distinguishing people by their socio-economic status, which is
definitely a discrimination indeed.
Paying ransom to get back hostage is definitely the right way to treat
people in a humane way. On the other hand, please do not bring in USA for
your argument, Mao and GCP's huge mistakes have little to do with USA. USA
still owns the best ever |
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 7 我说的扭曲就是half truth，避重就轻
对文革，大跃进，反右等党的一系列严重的犯罪行为，以及毛本人无法无天的恶行，根
本就没有从事实上客观的描述过，更不用说评论了 |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 8 Let us bet another 30 years:) Who else would not learn from its past if TG
does?
history
growth
be |
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 9 I don't understand your logic.
I was just pointing out if TG continues to defer the necessary political
reform, in the end, itself will lose any credibility and no one will be
willing to compromise with it.
Whether TG was good at civil war or whether the economy grows has nothing to
do with my argument. China is not the only country that has experienced
fast economic growth, but that cannot be used as an excuse for denying the
necessary political reform.
history
growth
be |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 10 So you admit the truth that the only person which could compete with Mao is
Hitler! LOL.
A big picture is about the whole view, that is what Yuan brings up about Mao
. Do you think Hitler and Mao are in general a positive figure?
Unfortunately many peopel do not think so. What Mao and Hitler did was all
about leading a nation to a totally wrong direction.
matter
what |
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 11 Nobody is saying Yuan should be immune from criticism. But a lot of
criticism is clearly politically motivated and directed at him personally.
can
those |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 12 To start from scratch could be faster:) LOL. We just do not unerstand how
come after 30 years of so called China reconstruction, we still had to start
from scratch? And so many people (up till now) still had problem getting
enough food. This is so called the great things accomplished by Mao? What a joke. Growth in China means richer government officers only and demolishing citizen's houses for GDP growth.
to |
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 13 A lot people do not realize economic growth and wealth distribution are two
different problems.
start |
|
v****s
发帖数: 1112 | 14 还原历史真相，说的简单，党国的方针路线往哪里搁？红朝发家史本来就不光彩，非正
统。不过现在发展的还不算太差。 |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 15 How are you in Germany, Miss 女儿红? :) I think I finally tell out who you are from your words.
修身、齐家、治国、平天下, that is all about moral standards. People are
encouraged to possess higher moral standards and marale, but could we expect
the government and its officers run their business on their own moral
standards? What China needs is a political reform, bringing in a better
system. Please note a political reform is not revolution, please do not be
scared of. You seem to worry more than those Chinese |
|
x***n
发帖数: 5127 | 16 听过袁腾飞讲的《北宋风云》，没什么深度。他骂土共的那些言论也没什么深度，基本上属于过过嘴瘾
泄愤型的，顶多能用来培养文革造反小将。没有深度的历史教育是没法避免重蹈覆辙的，只能添乱。
至于他讲的那些东西什么我看一时半会也翻不了案。这个只有中国的国家安全提升到一个相当的高度，
政府和百姓也相当地相互宽容的时候才行。否则没有玩翻案的资本。 |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 17 Come on, nobody would defend Yuan to be the most Niu teacher, he just speaks
out for many people, and this hurts some people including you. All I can
tell is you are defending Mao, a terrorist, man slaughter and dictator that
only Hitler and nowadays Kim Jong II could compete with. Probably you are
the only few people who tell out Yuan has 斗争哲学, to us, he just tells the
truth, has a good sense of humor, and pretty mild indeed. We have come
across more harsh critism of Mao in China.
What is wrong |
|
h****s
发帖数: 15 | 18 有位中学同学在大学教历史， 研究古代史基本上受限制很少， 到了近代史就要加倍小
心， 现代史简直就是雷区，49年后的历史实在太不堪，TG自己都无法面对， 因为年代
近， 史料档案详实，但按史料搞研究， 出来的成果肯定触雷，搞假的东西， 许多人
良心上过不去。此公正准备通过考博转行。 |
|
q******j
发帖数: 577 | 19 Maybe I miss something, but you said "sorry, but TG never learns lessons
from the history." You did not even try to limit it to TG never learns
lessons from its political reform history. And even if you made that
qualification, it is still too arbitrary. TG has ended the culture
revolution, TG has stopped political movements, TG has stopped ideological
disputes, TG has lossened its control over freedom of speech (although under
Hu's administration, there are some setbacks), TG has scaled back |
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 20 lol
Who am I to consider TG my opponent???? lol
under
party
are |
|
x****h
发帖数: 348 | 21 希特勒错在杀犹。败在攻伐苏联。注意失败与错误的区别。退一步说，政策的失败不是
罪过。毛泽东何败之有，
何错之有（可商讨）？两人皆雄才，除此之外，无可比较。至于毛是否正面，外人的观
点不文一钱。你难道还嫌
小平扭曲得不够吗。【 在 WithYou2007 (secretgarden) 的大作中提到: 】
is
Mao |
|
s*******e
发帖数: 3077 | 22 毛败就败在把自己个搞成僵尸到现在还不能入土为安 |
|
x****h
发帖数: 348 | 23 这个不能怪老毛，要怪小邓，是他不让你反扭曲的。你何必谦虚地说half truth,直说
completely wrong就完了吗。
我非常赞成对建国后的事实进行客观描述，至于是否罪过，更别提严重或无法无天，不
要妄为先行扭曲，徒增
耻笑而已。一点现代法治精神都没有的说。 |
|
s*******e
发帖数: 3077 | 24 和毛提现代法治就有点搞笑了
丫一句话就千万右派被打倒，再一句千万青年被发配
这些东西翻出来毛轮要抓狂的 |
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 25 毛自己说他是无法无天，要造反，造反有理，他大嘴一张，上百万人就被打倒了，他说
彭德怀反党，彭马上就被打倒了，说刘少奇是资产阶级司令部，刘马上就被迫害致死了
。 说他无法无天怎么就违反法制精神了呢? 什么地方涉及司法程序了? 评论毛的恶
行难道还要经过法院??? |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 26 "希特勒错在杀犹。败在攻伐苏联。注意失败与错误的区别。退一步说，政策的失败不是
你说人道和人性了. 象那个诗人写文川地震的死者, 死在党的领导下, 做鬼也幸福啊.
邓和当时的政府全面否定了文革, 但对毛, 还鉴于当时政坛里的极左势力, 大家的
思维贯势, 和毛树立起的疯狂个人崇拜, 说了三七开,这样的评价在当时很多人看来都觉得太客气, 您还觉得他扭曲事实? 在之后邓和政府就几乎不再提及毛的过失,但邓说过, 让以后的时间去说明(大意). 但这种不提的处理方式, 也是让一些人对文革和毛产生幻觉的原因. 您要是觉得三七开都不够, 你倒恐怕真是在扭曲了. 让经历了当时的农民和上山下乡的知识青年告诉你, 三七开都太客气. 我亲戚里的知识青年说, 70年代上半叶毛还在世的时候, 他们之间私下就管毛叫死老毛, 想想他们是怎样被毛忽悠长大的"幸福"一代, 但是在那样的言论控制之下, 都能有这样激烈的情绪表示, 说明了什么? |
|
|
|
d**********n
发帖数: 2031 | 29 挺有想法的老师,我觉得老师就应该把这种思考方式传递给学生
带有偏见的历史书不学也罢 |
|
h*****r
发帖数: 143 | 30 高中生也差不多16 到 18岁 左右， 也不是毫无判断力的 kids.
自古少年英雄不在少数， 甘罗12岁拜相， 康熙16岁除鳌拜，霍去病 未满18岁 封骠姚
校尉 出击漠北， 斩敌2000余，封冠军候。 现代的高中生， 差不多的年龄， 听点不
同观点而以， 又有何不可？
如若真是对于小学生， 袁这么讲课， 的确有值得商榷的地方。（不幸的是， 意识形
态的灌输从小学实际就开始了。从小就要佩戴烈士鲜血染红的红领巾。不知道你对此是
否有意见。）
对于高中生， 这样思考就有点多虑了。
LZ
for
picture |
|
q******j
发帖数: 577 | 31 I am suprised by your interpretation, really. Did I say anything
discriminating any one? Did I say anything about ranking? Did I say
anything about socio-economic status? And actually I am citing Marxism's
mistakes. You are just fighting with your own imagination.
Different interest groups' existence is a matter of fact. Interest is very
broad, could be ideological based, religion based, economical interest based
, political based, military based, age based, sex based ... that is why you
ca |
|
q******j
发帖数: 577 | 32 Again, I seriously doubt your reading capability. My post is in response to
LZ's question whether Hitler is contraversial. Did I say anywhere
admitting Hitler is comparable to Mao?
LZ is implying that if a figure is not contraversial, then a teacher can
just talk about all postives, if he is "good" guy, or only talk about
negatives, if he is "bad" guy. I pointed out that "contraversial" is
subjective. A teacher should do his best to give his students as many facts
as possible to help studen |
|
q******j
发帖数: 577 | 33 I am replying simply because you seem to spend a lot time to type and
respond my post. But I am really disappointed because you seem not to get my
point. My point is, if you do not like the way TG (and its officials) is
doing, do not follow TG's way of doing things. If you are accusing TG is
not objective, can you be more objective? If you are responding to TG's
injustice with injustice, that is circle. That is why I do not like 矫枉过
正.
BTW, you asked what improvements have done on the politi |
|
w****s
发帖数: 4430 | 34 中国现在的文化是愤青的文化，袁也罢韩也罢，无非培养更多的愤青而已。什么都是往
极端里的。不
是极左就是极右。就是缺乏一种，理性的，宽容的，不偏不倚的精神。
共产党如何？ 中国人的代表而已。你以为人民就是什么好货？
中国人，嘿嘿，没戏。
get my
officials) is
is
TG's
矫枉过
90's,
officials.
the |
|
q******j
发帖数: 577 | 35 I respectifully disagree. Kids in high school indeed have alreday gained
some judging ability and the outstanding ones may mature even faster.
However, Kids in high school (and even in college) (remember 红卫兵?) are generally still easy
to be emotionalized and they tend to oversimplify things due to the lack of
social experiences. They are still in the process of shaping their
analyticall skills and world view. As a teacher, it is important to help
students to form good reasoning habits and thi |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 36 LOL, again sorry I do not agree with you. No, Hitler is not a controversial
image to the world. People know his human side toward his mistress or maybe
his dog, and we know his life experience from books, but what he did is way
too evil to claim any credits for himself as a person. As of Mao, like
Stalin, sooner or later time will get him justified, which I bet will no
better than Stalin, and generally speaking a negative image.
You would not deny that to draw any conconlusion on anyone and any |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 37 As a matter of fact, I am thinking about the examples you cited here, such as
Hitler, terrorists, etc, they all went too far to the extreme and are
extremists. I bet you probably just tell the truth here that, yes TG
government has gone too far to the extreme, with all these tragedies over 60
years. It is losing its ground and becomes more and more groundless in the
matter of legality and reasonableness.
You also talked about interest groups. May I ask you, does any government in
this world who |
|
T*********e
发帖数: 9208 | 38 so true, mao cheated and killed his comrades, his enemies, and then the peop
le who follow him.
controversial
maybe
way
we |
|
|
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G**Y
发帖数: 33224 | 41 关键是那些批袁老师的
好像很没有安全感
小布什被骂的什么似的
活得不是依然很滋润 |
|
a*****s
发帖数: 15 | 42 历史教师袁腾飞和麦克弗拉
林晓
看了Youtube上的袁腾飞的讲座，让我想起了一个美国八十年代的一个电影“回到未来
(Back to future)”中的由麦可J福克斯扮演的中学生玛蒂麦克弗拉。电影中有这样一
段镜头，玛蒂坐时光汽车回到五十年代后，为了促成他父亲乔治和母亲劳潤的爱情，特
意在学校的派对舞会上弹了一曲摇滚，开始大家对这个来自八十年代的新生音乐还很新
奇，而当他弹到激动处的时候，所有的人都楞住了。最后他自己也停了下来，无奈的说
了一句“我想你们还没有接受（摇滚音乐的）准备”。
确实，不用说许多国内受党多年教育的同志们不能接受这样的音乐，就连许多身在国
外的留学生，受着西方言论自由的熏陶，对袁老师的那种丝毫没有为尊者讳而把历史当
相声一样来嘲弄，把江山象玩物一样来指点，把领袖象万户侯一样来粪土做法也觉得难
以接受。不过据说袁老师的学生对他都印象深刻，而他上央视也正是他的桃李们一致推
荐的结果。且不说袁老师的历史是正史还是野史，他说的每一件事是否经过考证，从央
视邀请他的本身这一点上还是说明了中国确实在言论自由上有了相当的进步。当然骂他
的人也是可以理解的，只是骂归骂，君子动口 |
|
M*****N
发帖数: 1466 | 43 幸亏鲁迅不跟你咋一个时代，要不然，他得被你气死了，当然了，你得有这个荣幸让他
接触到你。。。。
historical
class |
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 44 You are comparing TG to terrorists?
: |
|
q******j
发帖数: 577 | 45 You are just hopelessly trying to find something to fight back.
Unfortunately, Hitler was cited by LZ and terrorists were cited by WLRK. As
I pointed out, you are fighting too hard with your own imagination. Take
it easy. And you seem to try to alienate people who have different views on
some points while they actually may have a lot common views with you. Bush
's approach was "you're either against us, or with us." You seem to go
further and acted like "either you agree with ALL of my vie |
|
W*********7
发帖数: 426 | 46 我没有把你想象成任何别人, 你就是身在美国的你, 在为某些罪恶和错误做一定程度的辩解的你.
但是我觉得,你该把你的建议, 勇敢地跟党国提出来, 这对他们很适用. 你把说话和建议的对象搞错了.
确实是你又将这些例子演生开去解释的, 不是吗? 向恐怖主义者赎回人质也罢, 交战
双方和谈也罢, 这样的对立面关系, 难道是一个国家的政府和人民之间应有的关系? 敌对双方都必须做出让步, 这可以用在中国的现实里吗? 因为事实是, 中国的公民们, 有什么可再让步的? 谁才是其中必须学会让步和尊重的一方? 你想说, 巴以都可以坐下来和谈, 政府和人民的矛盾有什么不可解决的? 但是, 一个不能再为自己的公民利益着想和服务的政府, 反而是公民要做出让步争取妥协的对象, 这不是很不合理甚至很荒诞吗? 不要告诉我你写那些文字不是针对普通民众.
但你确实说出了事实, 那就是党国正腐已经完全站在了人民的对立面, 失去了民意. 那么他还有什么存在的合法性合理性? 该不该是他们从自身开始忏悔, 道歉和改革的时候? 甚至必要时, 引咎下台? 但是以人大主席"绝不仿效西方体制"的说法, 他们必定不会这么做.
你把说话和 |
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 47 Again, you are comparing oranges with apples.
Terrorism is a type of well defined conduct. CCP is a political party that
incorporate many different ideas. It's very easy for people to take a stand
on terrorism as long as they are against killing innocent people. But it
is far more complex for people to take a stand on a political party. Even
though you may vote for it, you don't necessarily agree with all of its
policies.
|
|
w**k
发帖数: 1455 | 48 你为什么总是把政治和恐怖主义对比呢?
你为什么总是认为什么东西都要一分为二呢? 反对恐怖主义到你那里就成立极端观点了?
反对种族灭绝你也认为太绝对? 那你做人有底线么?
As
on
Bush
, |
|
l**********e
发帖数: 173 | 49 他只不過是做了初步的“矯正”，還沒罔“過”，畢竟是給學生講課，主綫還是書本上
的，矯正主要通過他的發揮。很多觀點早就流傳很久了，包括學界，他只是用逗樂的方
式公開了而已。如果不是在國内，他還可以再往前推進。總額來説對於一般人的覺醒很
有正面意義。 |
|
W*******y
发帖数: 488 | 50 最近总看到这个名字，还不明白为什么，今天把版里面的转贴都大概都看了看，这人说
得内容大致上还是不错的，对于历史相关专业的专业人士，和有兴趣读读大陆以外的近
代史现代史资料的人来说，也没有什么新鲜内容，只是其他人没有大白天地去闯这些雷
区，他的有几个观点还是挺新颖的，比如25，但是他的语言用词都太极端和偏激了，同
时还有些夸张过度，同意另外一个楼的用这个词，矫枉过正。天朝的很多问题很复杂，
不仅仅是归罪到tg几个领导人就能全部解释清楚的，前几天有人转的文章，鲁迅说到的
愚昧野蛮等让人痛心的落后现象，很悲哀，差不多一个世纪以后，依旧如此。 |
|
